Energy Veritas 2.4i vs. Axiom M80ti - a blind listening test.

[craigsub]

OK, so 75dB in this instance?

I don't have any experience in listening for distortion levels, but I thought the 10% level was associated with subwoofer testing, not speakers.

Under blind testing, the majority of people cannot hear 10% THD with a subwoofer. And most people,with careful listening, will start to detect a difference with 10% THD + N in a loudspeaker, so yes, 75 dB of THD +N would start to be audible.

 

[einsteinjb]

This "lessening of dynamics" is actually with the speakers in question being run crossed over at between 80 and 100 Hz. It really is also a matter of physics, the larger speakers are just plain capable of moving more air, even through the midrange areas.

This is the type of difference that becomes apparent when one can do instant, blind A/B comparisons.

I just unhooked the M80's/2.4i's and replaced them with the Axiom M3's. The system sounds excellent- but smaller. It should, it IS smaller.

By the way, David Fabrikant and I have shared about 30 e-mails in the past 45 days. Look for a pair of the new 170 SE's to get a shakedown here in the near future.

They look really promising !

Ok so exactly how much larger must the speakers be before they become audible in your group of "larger" speakers? And I want absolute answers here and no beating around the bush!! Sorry SS, couldn't resist.

Seriously, thanks Craig and Ajax too for the responses. I'll be using my new CBM-170 SEs in pretty small rooms and don't plan to blow the windows out, so I'm sure they'll perform nicely for me. Can't wait to read your review of the new 170! That's hot.

Craig have you ever reviewed or auditioned any B&Ws? Just curious.

Merry Christmas (or whatever you celebrate)!

 

[craigsub]

Einstein - I have listened to a quite a few B&W's in a store, but have not done any extensive listening sessions.

The 170's are an excellent choice - here is that same THD+N graph at 90 dB

This is the $280 Axiom M2 graph

Both are in the -30 to -40 dB for THD + N @ 90 dB. That is excellent performance for a bookshelf speaker, and I would think the 170 SE will perform even better.

It would be interesting to see what Ascend could do with a $1200 per pair loudspeaker (floorstanding) ... I think it would easily "pass the test" as a major mover of air.

 

[Jack Dotson]

I've just have to chime in here. How many people were involved in this double blind test?

I once ordered the top of the line Axiom's main speakers, M80's I believe, and their best center speaker. To make a long story short, I wasted shipping money. I went through the break-in period waiting for them to come to life, but they never did. These were some of the most uninvolving speakers I've ever heard. Even my wife said, "no way", and she usually doesn't comment, or care, one way or the other.

I don't mean to offend anyone, this is just my opinion of course and is the purpose of my post, because my observations are so different from the one's I've read here.

To my ears they had an extremely limited soundstage, practically no depth, and just sounded thin, flat and lifeless.

I would love to have particiapted in this blind test because I'm absolutely sure I would have easily chose the Veritas'; not even close, I'm sure of it.

At the time I auditioned the Axioms I was looking to replace a pair of PSB Stratus Gold-i's (these also easily beat the Axioms IMO) which were eventually replaced by a pair of Maggie 1.6's (another very good speaker) and now by my Energy Veritas 2.3i's, which I think better these two.

I loved the Maggies and didn't think I'd find anything I could afford to replace them until I ran across the Veritas'.

I'll admit I didn't have the Veritas and Axioms side by side, but I honestly don't think I need to. When I buy a pair of speakers I put them in my system and by the end of the first evening I know what I like about them and what I don't, and if I like them at all or if I don't.

Some speakers are better in some areas than others and sometimes one has to decide which characteristics are most important to them. On the other hand, there are times when you just don't like how a particular speaker sounds and this was such a speaker to me.

To be honest, I'm really surprised to read all the good reviews the Axioms get. I guess I just hear very different from many other folks. IMO these two aren't even close regardless of what type of music you use.

There I've said it, got it off my chest and now I feel better. Once again, hope I haven't offended anyone, but this is what I hear. Just goes to show why there are so many speakers on the martket I guess.

 

[Jack Dotson]

Me again. Craig, I forgot to ask in my last post, and since you seem to love some good bass as do I, what crossover point do you use with the 2.4i'?

BTW, some like the 2.3i's better than the 2.4i's. You wouldn't happen to have a graph that compares the two would you?

Not done yet. I also find it interesting that you mention the softer sound of the Varitas becasue I too found this to be a characteristic of their sound. For me that's good because as you stated, they sound tube like, but are still very detailed at the same time.

Where we seem to disagree drastically is with the depth and imaging of the two speakers. Associated equipment, room acoustics, who knows? BTW, did you move the speakers into the same loaction each time you did your testing or was they placed next to one another? If so, which was on the outside?

Because of their somewhat subdued sound it should be noted that like all speakers, it's very important to find the right match of associated components.

I buy the best I can afford and am currently using a Outlaw Model-755 amp (which I'm crazy about and am in no hurry to upgrade), their model 750 pre-processor (which I'm not so crazy about), and a Sony DVP NS999ES as my source.

I utilize the analog inputs of the Outlaw and the DAC's of the Sony, which are much better. However, I realize the 2.3i's would sound their best with analytical sounding equipment, Bryston comes to mind, and would probably be way too soft with tubes.

On the other hand a speaker like the Axioms would likely hurt your ears in such a set-up. Dunno.

Just pointing out the obvious. With different equipment results would likely have been very different.

BTW, the detail, dynamics and accuracy of the mid-bass of the 2.3i's is as good as I've heard in any speaker, regardless of cost. Now if I can just find a sub to cover that last octave with the same finess and the right crossover point I'll be in heaven.

 

[Loner]

"BTW, the detail, dynamics and accuracy of the mid-bass of the 2.3i's is as good as I've heard in any speaker, regardless of cost. Now if I can just find a sub to cover that last octave with the same finess and the right crossover point I'll be in heaven."

Since the close of Good Guys, I'm having a heck of a time finding a dealer carrying Energy! How would you compare the 2.3i/2.4i to the B&W 703's etc.?

 

[craigsub]

I use the Emotiva DMC-1/MPS-1 pre-power set up, which I have had for over a year, and got the Axioms last summer. It is ironic that they both win an Audioholics award.

For a crossover, I either run the 2.4i's full range or cross them at 50 Hz. Well ... Usually at 50 Hz.

And if I had a dollar for every guy who "knows he could easily have picked out a speaker in a blind test", I could afford a second Emo set up. Hang on, I DO have a 2nd set ...

Here is a graph of the Maggies, BTW.

Perhaps you were really used to a particular sound ?

 

[Jack Dotson]

"BTW, the detail, dynamics and accuracy of the mid-bass of the 2.3i's is as good as I've heard in any speaker, regardless of cost. Now if I can just find a sub to cover that last octave with the same finess and the right crossover point I'll be in heaven."

Since the close of Good Guys, I'm having a heck of a time finding a dealer carrying Energy! How would you compare the 2.3i/2.4i to the B&W 703's etc.?

Funny you should ask. I accidentially ran across the Veritas' when I went to audition a pair of B&W N803's. The dealer didn't have the 803's in stock at the time, so I listened to the 804's (little brothers, similar sound with less bass).

They had the 2.3i's setting right next to the 804's. I knew very little of the Veritas line and figured they probably weren't very good since they're rarely mentioned, especially compared to the legandary Nautilus line. I gave them a good look and thought they looked to be very well made, so I decided to put them up against the more expensive 804's.

It didn't take long to determine I liked the Varitas' much better. I couldn't find one area where I preferred the sound of the 804's and I'm a big fan of the Nautilus line. I was actually using a Nautilus HTM-2 Center with my Maggies and this was the primary reason I started my search with the Nautilus line.

To my ears it was no contest, better bass extension with much more detail, better dynamics (by far), imaging was about equal (not the best set-up for this comparison), much better vertical and lateral dispersion, and the Varitas had a huge soundstage, even matching my Maggies.

Associated equipment was a Sunfire pre-procesor and amp with Rotel CDP. BTW, with this equipment and in this room the Nautilus sounded dark and like they had a veil over them in comparison. But, I also feel this is a less than ideal set-up for the Varitas' as well.

My search stopped right here and I bought them on the spot. I knew almost immediately I had finally found the speaker for me.

Just so you know when I bought my Maggies I auditioned many speakers in the $2500 and under class which include, but are not limited to, Paradigm Studio series, M&K, Dyaudio, PSB (actually owned the Stratus Gold i), B&W, ML, Linn, Polk LSi, Vandersteen (also owned a pair of 2Ci at one time), Klipsch (have owned Chorus II and LaScalla's), DT, etc., etc. You get the picture.

If it sounds like I'm hyping the Veritas' it's because I am. I've been into this hobby seriously for about 30 years and couldn't start to list the speakers I've owned over the years. I've always had the ideal speaker in my head which I'm sure I'll never find, but the Veritas come as close as any I have found to date (that are in my price range). A pair of Maggie 3.6's hooked to all AR equipment is the best reference system I've heard.

This speaker does everything really well IMO. If I had to list a weakness it would be in absolute bass extension, not quality, but extension. Not that it's bad, but it's not full range either. I also noticed after I bought these and read some reveiws that it's very hard to find a bad reveiew or comment. One magazine, TAS I think (could be wrong, I'll have to check again), actaully made them their reference after completing their review. This from the people who get to hear and test many speakers.

These speakers are the real deal. Look great (in piano black), built great, and sound great for a reasonable price.

There, I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[Jack Dotson]

And if I had a dollar for every guy who "knows he could easily have picked out a speaker in a blind test", I could afford a second Emo set up. Hang on, I DO have a 2nd set ...

Here is a graph of the Maggies, BTW.

Perhaps you were really used to a particular sound ?[/QUOTE]

I "hear" what your saying about the DBT, but I'm telling you the Axioms I had sounded nothing like the 2.3's. Maybe they've changed, I had them a couple of years back.

Craig, I have to tell you that I find frequency and various other graphs useful and amusing, but as I'm sure your aware they very little to do with how a speaker actually sounds.

I've seen some speakers that were ruler flat that sounded like crap.

Anyhow, thanks for the response and enjoy your Axioms. BTW, if you decide you want to make me a good deal for your 2.4i's let me know.

 

[craigsub]

Jack - The Maggies are a wonderfully musical speaker, they are not accurate, but they are seductive. Once you are used to their sound, other speakers will often sound really dry, especially speakers with a flatter response curve.

By the way - I do own the Axioms. but also have the 2.4i's, Paradigm 100 V.3's, ACI Sapphire XL's, Essence and Emeralds, and will be trying out a pair of Ascend 170 SE's soon.

Which means, of course, the Axioms are not "my" speakers.

You should try the Sapphire XL's sometime - you won't believe what you are hearing from a moderate size, bookshelf speaker.

 

[Tomorrow]

You should try the Sapphire XL's sometime - you won't believe what you are hearing from a moderate size, bookshelf speaker.

Keep it up, Craig. Go ahead. And I'm gonna send you my shirt dry cleaning bill. Or maybe I could save some money by buying some bibs.

 

[Jack Dotson]

I think I can get Energy 2.4's for about $2,200 a pair. The new RC series are about $1,200 a pair and are a mix between the Veritas and Reference. I would love to do a comparision between the 2.4's and the new series coming out. For half the price it might be a great speaker.
Roly

Where did you find the 2.4i's for $2200? I gave almost this much for my 2.3i's, but I'd love to upgrade to the 2.4i's if I could find them at this price.

 

[BoB/335]

I love resurrecting old threads.

Hi! I'm new here and new on a couple of other audio forums. Just bought a
52" Sharp Aquos. So of course I need audio. My Mitsubishi Receiver I bought 26 years ago died probably 12 years ago. I've only had some boom boxes for music WAY too long. Picked up a Denon 2309 on Christmas eve and I have a decent Polk bookshelf speaker that I had in my kitchen but haven't been used since my receiver died. Very little hours on these. That actually sound very clear bur very lacking in the bass even with the bass turned up all the way in stereo mode on the receiver. (Of course I could be doing something wrong with the receiver. Much more complicated than my old receiver.)

Been reading a lot of info and opinions on these forums. Also been reading a lot of reviews. I know the typical answer that I need to go and listen for myself to a LOT of speakers. I also know that most likely they will all sound different in my enviroment than in the store. I loved reading a real life comparison such as the one in this thread.

I have gained a recent awareness of the Axiom M80 v2. Is that the upgrade from the M80 ti? The Energy RC-70 as well as the Rocket RS850 also seem to be in this catergory of speakers that seem to be of a good quality, good review, and difficult to hear anywhere.

So just wondering if the Axiom has had a blind test comparison with any of the speakers I have mentioned of any others that I still don't know about but should.

(btw this thread was linked from another forum. probably the Axiom forum)

 

[WmAx]

Here is the Ascend 170's attempting to reproduce the same 95 dB signal:

Note the THD + N stays elevated well into the mids. Keep in mind this is a $328 pair of speakers. The NRC was not doing this tougher test when it ran measurements on the Axiom bookshelf speakers (M22's, M2's and M3's) ... This is good performance, especially for the $$$$, but they won't keep up with the big boys, even at 200 Hz.

The 170SE is improved in regards to THD vs. SPL in this band. The new unit uses an improved motor. I have measured the SE version and verified this improvement. Also, as you noted earlier, 95db with one unit at 2 meters anechoic, would be roughly equal to 2 units in a room at about 105dB, a rather extreme SPL for most purposes, and considering that, the THD is not really a big deal under this condition, since it would only occur in dynamic peaks of relative short term. Even in lower SPL, I highly doubt THD, as long as it is under -30dB, would be audible on music program, especially when only present in limited bandwidths. I also make that statement based on the presumption that the THD has rapidly decreasing harmonics, not unusually high level high order harmonics, in which case, the THD would be easily audible.

Used with stereo subwoofers, crossed around 85-90Hz, it would be suited to large dynamics with no problem. But in the end, it's still a little bookshelf speaker and using it full range will always be a compromise even with the improved motor system.

-Chris

P.S.: I just noticed the age of this thread. Oops.

 

[BoB/335]

Is Craig still on this forum? Just wondering if there are any updates to this study or any other speakers compared since this was done several years ago. Interested in the Axiom M80 vs the Rocket 850 and the Energy RC-70

 

[fredk]

The M80 v2 designation reflects some improvements in the crossover and other tweeks Axiom has implemented over time. If you compare the M80ti and M80v2 frequency response charts on soundstagenetwork.com, you can see a slight improvement in frequency response.

From what I understand, the Rocket 850 and M80 will sound similar. I believe one person here did a direct comparison between the M60 and Rocket 850.

Personally I don't think you can go wrong with the M80, but I may be a little biased.

 

[BoB/335]

The Rockets are outrageous to ship. I'll try to do a search to find that comparison. Thanks!

 

[fredk]

What is the shipping cost on the Rockets? I have always been curious to know what actual shipping costs on a large pair of speakers.

FYI, as a further note on the M80th vs v2, I remember a post by Alan Loft, the marketing guy at Axiom, that the improvements on the v2 centered around the midrange. You can always email him on the details if you really want to know.

 

[BoB/335]

AV123 is running a special on the Rocket 850's and a pair of subs. Shipping for the package is $450 so I should probably write a retraction because the shock I received was including a pair of subs. I'll try to check what just the 850's are to ship.

 

[jonnythan]

It turns out that speakers "A" were the Axioms and "B" the Energy pair. It also turns out that overall, I preferred the Axioms - which was somewhat a surprise. Here is where they did much better than expected:

1. Bass Extension
2. Sound Staging and Imaging
3. Lack of harshness
4. Microdynamics
5. Macrodynamics

Ok - They surprised me pretty much everywhere. Axiom's constant work on improving their designs through research at the NRC and double blind testing on products to ascertain if the "improvements" really are seems to be paying off.

I am not going to get into a "this vs. that" between speakers now. BUT, I have has the following high end speakers in this same room as the M80 V.2's:

PSB Strata Goldi's, Legacy Classics, VMPS Super Towers, Klipschorns, Onix Ref 3's, Infinity IRS Sigma's, and Paradigm Studio 100 V.3's.

These speakers all have an average retail of about $5500 per pair.

In "lesser" speakers, I have had Rocket ELT's, 550 Mark II's, Ascend 170's and 340's, Axiom M22's.

The "lesser" speakers are VERY good loudspeakers, but they cannot reproduce the macrodynamics of the larger, "high end" speakers.

The Axiom M80's DO fit in with the better tower speakers on the market.

They have solid 30 Hz bass, image like monitors, yet have a large, expansive soundstage. I never sensed a hint of harshness, nor brightness. In fact, I found them to be quite neutral, with the ability to get out of the way of music.

As played against the Energies, the 2.4i's matched the dynamics of the M80's, but did so with a somewhat "mellow" signature - think original PSB Strata Gold's, and you will get the picture. As Roly has suggested, the 2.4i's are not going to be the "value" speaker in the Energy line, and there are likely a couple of better choices for a direct comparison to the M80's.

Getting back to the M80's - They will excel in both a 2 channel or a home theater system.

One Caveat with these speakers: I am driving them with the $4500 Emotiva DMC-1/MPS-1 pre-amp/power amp combo and a highly modded Denon 2900 Universal player.

Make sure, if you are interested in these speakers, that you get amplification and front end worthy of them. I can easily understand why people could consider them "bright" when using a $700 receiver.

Finally - Soundstage recently did a review of the M80 V.2's and had done a review of the 2.4i's last year. Here are some NRC graphs of both speakers. Feel free to chime in, and questions are welcomed !

This is the response curve of the M80 V.2 - note the almost uniform response across the 200 to 10,000 Hz range. They are also +/- 3 dB from 60 to 19,000 Hz, and - 5 dB at 32 Hz. With typical room gain, they will be flat to 30 Hz.

Here are the 2.4i's. Rather than a +/- 3 dB curve, they are closer to a +0/-6 dB curve - which matches the somewhat mellower curve mentioned. In a perfect world, both the Axioms and the 2.4i's would b +0/-0 db - but staying within a 6 dB total window, especially with NRC style measurements, is remarkable.

Forgive me.... aren't +/- 3 dB and +0/-6 mathematically equivalent save for a notch or two on the volume dial?