Energy Veritas 2.4i vs. Axiom M80ti - a blind listening test.

[craigsub]

More NRC graphs ...

Here are some more NRC graphs. These are VERY difficult response curves, taken at 95 dB in a 4 Pi environment. This would be about 105 dB in a typical room. Note the level of distortion (the bottom curve) at these high SPL's from the various speakers, for distortion, -20 dB = 10 % THD, -30 dB = 3.16 % and -40 dB = 1% :

The Energy 2.4i's :

The PSB Platinum T6 ($5000/pair):

The Paradigm Studio 100 V.3's ($2300/pair)

The Axiom M80 V.2's ($1240/pair)

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Good stuff!

Since the M80ti's seem to be the bang for the buck choice at that level, and they are 4ohm, what would be the bang for the buck pre/amp or receiver that would do them the justice they deserve?

Nice work craigsub, Thanks!

SBF1

 

[craigsub]

Since the M80ti's seem to be the bang for the buck choice at that level, and they are 4ohm, what would be the bang for the buck pre/amp or receiver that would do them the justice they deserve?

Nice work craigsub, Thanks!

SBF1

Anyone quoting from Buckeroo Banzai gets a thumbs up ...

Look into Harmon Kardon receivers for entry level performance - Here is one for under $700 delivered from OneCall that will work great - Harmon Kardon 635

Outlaw Audio , The new Emotiva UL series from AV123, and NAD's higher end receivers and separates will get that next level of performance.

 

[Wid]

You could add Rotel to the list of medium priced amps capable of running the M80s. I have the RB 1080 @ 300 @ 4 ohm hooked up to a pair of M80s; this pairing does make for some sweet music indeed .

Nice work Craig, thanks for taking the time and sharing your thoughts.

 

[Duffinator]

Have a Merry Christmas Everyone

Craig, nice comments about the speakers. Anyone have any thoughts on how the M60's compare to the M80's? Seems to me they should be fairly similar but lacking a little down low. Could they be an even better value than the 80's? Yesterday I had a chance to listen to an Axiom EP 600 and it was quite impressive. Axiom is definitely on my radar screen.

 

[craigsub]

Wid - Good call on Rotel ! I would add the Sherwood 865/965 receivers and/or pre/power to the mix, too.

Duffinator - The M60/M80 comparison is something even dedicated Axiom fans like to argue about. I would think you are right in saying they should be similar, with the 60's giving up some low end, but also they will give up some dynamics.

 

[einsteinjb]

In "lesser" speakers, I have had Rocket ELT's, 550 Mark II's, Ascend 170's and 340's, Axiom M22's.

The "lesser" speakers are VERY good loudspeakers, but they cannot reproduce the macrodynamics of the larger, "high end" speakers.

Hey Craig,

Thank you so much for all your efforts! I always love reading your reviews, very detailed and informative.

At the risk of derailing the thread, I am curious about something and I'm sure there are plenty of others who might wonder about the same question. Regarding your statement above about how the Ascends are very good but can't reproduce the macrodynamics of the larger speakers, I'm assuming you mean running them in full-range mode. How would you say the Ascends (the 340s for example) would do in comparison to something like the M80 if you crossed them over to a proper sub rather than running them full range? I know the new SE versions are an unknown quantity as of yet but just based on what you know of the existing versions.

Thanks!

 

[Ajax]

Nice Craig. I am a bit surprised that the Axioms could run so well with the more expensive group of speakers.

For any who might be interested, it has been announced that Axiom, in addition to the current vinyl veneer, will be offering their speakers with the option of real wood veneer. Timing and pricing haven't been announced.

 

[Ajax]

Interesting question, Einstein. Craig, is there something inherent in a larger speaker (floorstander) that would give it an advantage over a smaller speaker (bookshelf), if both were crossed over at 80 Hz to a competent subwoofer?

Hey Craig,

Thank you so much for all your efforts! I always love reading your reviews, very detailed and informative.

At the risk of derailing the thread, I am curious about something and I'm sure there are plenty of others who might wonder about the same question. Regarding your statement above about how the Ascends are very good but can't reproduce the macrodynamics of the larger speakers, I'm assuming you mean running them in full-range mode. How would you say the Ascends (the 340s for example) would do in comparison to something like the M80 if you crossed them over to a proper sub rather than running them full range? I know the new SE versions are an unknown quantity as of yet but just based on what you know of the existing versions.

Thanks!

 

[craigsub]

Hey Craig,

Thank you so much for all your efforts! I always love reading your reviews, very detailed and informative.

At the risk of derailing the thread, I am curious about something and I'm sure there are plenty of others who might wonder about the same question. Regarding your statement above about how the Ascends are very good but can't reproduce the macrodynamics of the larger speakers, I'm assuming you mean running them in full-range mode. How would you say the Ascends (the 340s for example) would do in comparison to something like the M80 if you crossed them over to a proper sub rather than running them full range? I know the new SE versions are an unknown quantity as of yet but just based on what you know of the existing versions.

Thanks!

This "lessening of dynamics" is actually with the speakers in question being run crossed over at between 80 and 100 Hz. It really is also a matter of physics, the larger speakers are just plain capable of moving more air, even through the midrange areas.

This is the type of difference that becomes apparent when one can do instant, blind A/B comparisons.

I just unhooked the M80's/2.4i's and replaced them with the Axiom M3's. The system sounds excellent- but smaller. It should, it IS smaller.

By the way, David Fabrikant and I have shared about 30 e-mails in the past 45 days. Look for a pair of the new 170 SE's to get a shakedown here in the near future.

They look really promising !

ps ... I placed the 550 mark II's in with this group as they are not quite in the same arena as are the M80's - I would imagine the new 760's would fare well.

 

[silversurfer]

Nice Craig. I am a bit surprised that the Axioms could run so well with the more expensive group of speakers.

For any who might be interested, it has been announced that Axiom, in addition to the current vinyl veneer, will be offering their speakers with the option of real wood veneer. Timing and pricing haven't been announced.

That is great! Do we know who is making the cabinets? Is Axiom making them in house, or possibly Mark Schifter's(AV123) shop overseas? Forgive me, but I forgot the actual name of Mark's overseas operation.

I have heard M60's and older Veritas 2.2's(no "i"). They were very comparable, but I preferred the 2.2 as I felt they sounded a bit more natural, especially through the mids and highs.

 

[craigsub]

That is great! Do we know who is making the cabinets? Is Axiom making them in house, or possibly Mark Schifter's(AV123) shop overseas? Forgive me, but I forgot the actual name of Mark's overseas operation.

I have heard M60's and older Veritas 2.2's(no "i"). They were very comparable, but I preferred the 2.2 as I felt they sounded a bit more natural, especially through the mids and highs.

It would come as no surprise that quite a few people would prefer the Veritas sound to the M80's... Your descriptions of "a bit more natural" for the Veritas is shown in the somewhat recessed frequency response curve the Veritas line has in the mids/upper mids.

That is part of this whole "subjective listening" stuff. You also managed to make your preference into a well worded post ...

Mark's company is "Sound Art China".

 

[craigsub]

Here is the Ascend 170's attempting to reproduce the same 95 dB signal:

Note the THD + N stays elevated well into the mids. Keep in mind this is a $328 pair of speakers. The NRC was not doing this tougher test when it ran measurements on the Axiom bookshelf speakers (M22's, M2's and M3's) ... This is good performance, especially for the $$$$, but they won't keep up with the big boys, even at 200 Hz.

 

[Wid]

Do we know who is making the cabinets?

The wood finishes will be made in house at the Axiom factory.

 

[Rayzz]

Craig - another excellent report!

I was wondering where you were and then I found this thread. After having had the chance to experience your listening room during the sub GTG, I can only imagine how painful and exhausting this whole test must have been for you!

As usual, your input and conclusions were clear and well articulated. Being a previous owner of the Axiom M60s, I can understand how the M80s did so well. The Veritas line is excellent and it's nice to see that the M80s hold their own.

Ray

 

[Sheep]

Great stuff craig!

I knew the axioms were going to win, but I'm an energy fanboy, and I love the way the 2.4i's sound. That little dip between 2 - 5KHz is all thats needed for me to fall in love with them. I hate bright speakers, and the energy's were what I liked.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Great stuff craig!

I knew the axioms were going to win, but I'm an energy fanboy, and I love the way the 2.4i's sound. That little dip between 2 - 5KHz is all thats needed for me to fall in love with them. I hate bright speakers, and the energy's were what I liked.

SheepStar

Sheep - While I prefer the more neutral presentation of something like the Axioms, I would not say they "won" anything here, other than being an exceptional value speaker. My wife, for example, prefers the 2.4i's... as with you, the bit of warmth is more musical to her ears.

And I am sure that other speakers in the Energy line would have been a better choice for this test (the new RC-70's look pretty darn good on paper), the 2.4 i's were what I had.

As Rayzz can attest to, taking a blind test is pretty difficult. Even though I guessed which were the Axioms and Energies after a couple of nights, I was never quite sure. What blind testing does is truly make you hear more than you usually do. That being said, I completely understand why you like the 2.4i's - they give quality amplification a tube-like quality while still being transparent. What's not to like ?

 

[silversurfer]

It would come as no surprise that quite a few people would prefer the Veritas sound to the M80's... Your descriptions of "a bit more natural" for the Veritas is shown in the somewhat recessed frequency response curve the Veritas line has in the mids/upper mids.

That is part of this whole "subjective listening" stuff. You also managed to make your preference into a well worded post ...

Mark's company is "Sound Art China".

Maybe, but I have heard speakers with near identical FR plots and they sound very different.

As you pointed out, more than FR makes up the speaker, you even showed distortion graphs. The distortion numbers at 2-4k on the Axioms is right in the range of where our hearing is most sensitive, that could cause issues with some, even if the FR is flat as a board.

Thanks for reminding me Sound Art China. I knew there was an "art" in there some where.

 

[craigsub]

Maybe, but I have heard speakers with near identical FR plots and they sound very different.

As you pointed out, more than FR makes up the speaker, you even showed distortion graphs. The distortion numbers at 2-4k on the Axioms is right in the range of where our hearing is most sensitive, that could cause issues with some, even if the FR is flat as a board.

Thanks for reminding me Sound Art China. I knew there was an "art" in there some where.

The THD + N on the Axioms in that range amount to a total of a worst case -38 dB from the fundamental. In other words, with a 95 dB signal at 2000 Hz, all the harmonics at 4000, 6000, 8000 Hz, etc, PLUS any noise ... add up to 58 dB. That is not going to be audible over a 95 dB fundamental @ 2000 Hz.

 

[silversurfer]

I see, then at what point do they become audible?