Emotiva vs. Rotel vs. Anthem

cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
That's why the tubes get the big bucks.

Those people didn't spend all that money to sound accurate and "all the same"!

They want something that sounds different and inaccurate. It makes them feel special. :eek:
Yes it does :D
 
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
I also want to say I have never heard a difference in amp sound.

I recall back in the early days when I was a fresh young audiophile. I read about how amps and cables differ in SQ. I believed it too. But then I compared them for myself (volume match closely). And I said "WTF are they talking about! I can't hear any difference with any amps, AVR, pre-pro in direct mode!" :eek:

The only difference I heard was the volume. Some had higher gain and that made the volume louder. But when I level matched and the volume was equal, there was no difference in SQ.

I thought I was the only one who could not hear the difference. Then I read The Audio Critic and they had Electrical Engineers and PhDs and other established audiophiles who thought the same and double-blinded studies to prove that we just can't statistically hear the difference.
Next time you are back in town from Krypton let me know so that i can line up a real A/B and let you hear the difference between amps. Just because a bunch of guys in a room with a couple of speakers driving in a relativlty small space don't hear a difference does not mean it does not exist. Any device that you insert into your signal path will "color" the sound in some form, including amps. I have heard it form amps, from mixers, from DSP's, from mic preamps, from drivers, from A/D and D/A converts, EVERYTHING will color the sound.

Now, I know that you feel that people like myself are sniffing way too much glue (that is a topic for another conversation) but other wise we all should just go buy some RT amps and be done and enjoy the "uncolored bliss" that every amp sounds the same.....

Jumping in the fox hole now for protection....:D

Gordon
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Next time you are back in town from Krypton let me know so that i can line up a real A/B and let you hear the difference between amps. Just because a bunch of guys in a room with a couple of speakers driving in a relativlty small space don't hear a difference does not mean it does not exist. Any device that you insert into your signal path will "color" the sound in some form, including amps. I have heard it form amps, from mixers, from DSP's, from mic preamps, from drivers, from A/D and D/A converts, EVERYTHING will color the sound.

Now, I know that you feel that people like myself are sniffing way too much glue (that is a topic for another conversation) but other wise we all should just go buy some RT amps and be done and enjoy the "uncolored bliss" that every amp sounds the same.....

Jumping in the fox hole now for protection....:D

Gordon
No, I'm staying on Krypton where it's safe..........oh wait. :eek:

You know, some of us will disagree, but it's all cool.

Consider it all a debate class, and we are just having fun.

I remember when we had to defend a position that we were totally against. That was fun. :D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Any device that you insert into your signal path will "color" the sound in some form, including amps. I have heard it form amps, from mixers, from DSP's, from mic preamps, from drivers, from A/D and D/A converts, EVERYTHING will color the sound.

Now, I know that you feel that people like myself are sniffing way too much glue (that is a topic for another conversation) but other wise we all should just go buy some RT amps and be done and enjoy the "uncolored bliss" that every amp sounds the same.....

Jumping in the fox hole now for protection....:D

Gordon
We've had this discussion so many times before. So you are asserting that frequency response variations in the middle six octave on the order of +/- .05db and distortion below -80db or so colors the sound enough that you can easily discern differences? How? Or are you thinking that there are other factors, like phase distortion? Or is it that some speaker loads cause amplifier misbehavior that doesn't present itself in bench testing?
 
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
No, I'm staying on Krypton where it's safe..........oh wait. :eek:

You know, some of us will disagree, but it's all cool.

Consider it all a debate class, and we are just having fun.

I remember when we had to defend a position that we were totally against. That was fun. :D
Oh totally agree! It is all fun and I truly respect everyone's opions and great experience. One of the greatest and hardest things about audio is the subjective nature. You can't see it, you can't smell it like video and cooking but man, people have different views and different tastes. And that is what makes it so amazing and fun!

But we can agree when it sounds good and when it sounds bad.;)

It keeps us young!

Gordon
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Still haven't heard one well designed amp blow another well designed amp out of the water with a night and day difference.

I've heard more difference moving my head left/right 5 degrees than I have ever heard in my Parasound/Adcom/Crown/Behringer/AB Int/Emotiva/Carver/NAD/Denon/Marantz.
 
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
We've had this discussion so many times before. So you are asserting that frequency response variations in the middle six octave on the order of +/- .05db and distortion below -80db or so colors the sound enough that you can easily discern differences? How? Or are you thinking that there are other factors, like phase distortion? Or is it that some speaker loads cause amplifier misbehavior that doesn't present itself in bench testing?
Honestly, I have never looked at reasons why or how. While I have never taken the time to even ask why of amp designer friends of mine I will ask to try and take an intangible and make tangible. Honestly, I do not believe that we can take a sound coloring and put it on a graph and see it and I realize that everyone wants to see it. I do not feel it is that easy of a "find".

I also realize, that in a discussion such as this, when I can not quote specs or FFT charts to compare I loose my position. But never-the-less, with over 28 years in the pro-audio world and owner of a consulting firm that designs many performing arts centers thoughout the world, I have many experiences that point to that each amp colors.

And at the end of the day, if it sounds good and performs as designed then, sit back and enjoy.;)

Gordon
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Oh totally agree! It is all fun and I truly respect everyone's opions and great experience. One of the greatest and hardest things about audio is the subjective nature. You can't see it, you can't smell it like video and cooking but man, people have different views and different tastes. And that is what makes it so amazing and fun!

But we can agree when it sounds good and when it sounds bad.;)

It keeps us young!

Gordon
One of the key things about audio, is ears. Nobody hears the same and that is why people have their own personal opinion about audio, right or wrong your ears are the final decision maker, not someone on a forum that you have never met or a friend(s), it's you and only you. But opinions do provide that extra level of comfort humans appear to require before a major decision, but in the end you make the decision. And audio is fun even when it's bad. It has to be better than tennis
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
One of the key things about audio, is ears.
Different ears and different brains. :D

I guess if our brains think that something is "colored"......well...... then it's colored. :D

I just want to know something. Is the color purple or blue or violet? :eek: :D
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Different ears and different brains. :D

I guess if our brains think that something is "colored"......well...... then it's colored. :D

I just want to know something. Is the color purple or blue or violet? :eek: :D

And some brains have a higher IQ than others, and some brains might not think in color's but merely in black and white and the color is always purple since it denotes good judgement. :D

Go with Anthem
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
I would not consider Emotiva since it lacks a UL listing. If it were to cause a fire or hurt someone, I don’t want that extra liability.
I agree with the sentiment, but would broaden your statement to include every OSHA-approved Nationally Recognized Testing Labs (NRTL), of which UL is one.

All OSHA-approved NRTL's test to the same consensus-based standards, and for purposes of liability protection they're all legally equivalent.

So certainly consider an amp with a UL mark:

(Integra dta-70.1)

But also consider amps bearing a CSA mark,

(NAD T 975 multichannel amp)

or an ETL mark,

(AudioControl Savoy multichannel amp)

or a TÜV Rheinland mark,

(Mark Levinson No. 533 three-channel amp)

or an entela mark.

(Anthem MCA50 multichannel amp)

Or one with any of the other marks shown here:

Without one of those marks, however, an amp should be categorically rejected.

Of the amps mentioned in the subject line, I know that the Anthem PVA7 carries an NRTL mark, as does their MCA50 (they don't have an MCA70).

For other alternatives, NAD, AudioControl, and Arcam are three other "mid-tier boutique" firms that are responsible enough to send their multichannel amps to NRTL's for safety certification. Though all are a fair bit more expensive than the Anthem PVA-line, which is probably the current best value in a new-with-warranty multichannel amp. I don't know of another properly safety-certified amp in its price range, though there must be one or two (maybe from Marantz, or Onkyo/Integra?). For a lot less if you can find one, there are the old Sherwood Newcastle A-965/Boston Acoustics A7200 twins on the secondary market. Possibly others, though at current values the A-965/A7200 is the cheapest good multichannel amp of which I'm aware. If you want/need a 9-channel amp, the Integra dta-70.1 (above) is properly certified, and priced competitively.

As for Rotel...I'm honestly not sure about their whole line. But I can speak to their RMB-1506 six-channel amp, which I recently considered buying but rejected after reading the back panel. (I discovered the A-965 when the Rotel dealer had one on a closeout table.) Not only does Rotel fail to get NRTL safety certification, but also they fail to comply with mandatory federal regulations for devices containing switching amps or power supplies, 47 CFR § 15(b) et seq. The RMB-1506 does not have an FCC logo on the back panel, and the manual does not contain the statutorily required language.

As for Emotiva, to my knowledge the only product from them with proper safety certification is the wall wart that comes with their ET-3 12V trigger router! (And, for the record, that's a good product if you need the functionality.)

Guess B&K's too cheap too. Maybe they didn't have any money left over after paying for that bomb-*** THX certification.
Why not? Yes, it is entirely possible, even likely, that B&K was simply too cheap to spring for independent safety testing. They were always a fairly small outfit, and never terribly stable financially. Yes, they spent money on THX certification, but at the time not being THX certified was seen as a marketing blunder. Audiophiles generally aren't smart enough to look for NRTL certification, so its presence isn't a big marketing feature.

Alternately, perhaps they didn't pursue proper safety certification because they knew their amps would fail. They are intentionally designed to demand too much from the wall at rated power to pass inspection. That's why some McIntosh multichannel amps have the "low impedance" switch. Without that current-limiting switch, they wouldn't pass NRTL inspection.

So Canelli you said Emotiva was too cheap for a UL Listing. But Krell, McIntosh, Mark Levinson? It doesn't seem like Emotiva should be singled out.
I don't know about Krell, as I'm not interested in anything that crude and overbuilt-for-the-sake-of-being-overbuilt, but all of the McIntosh and Levinson amps I've seen have proper NRTL safety certification. One such Levinson is pictured above.

But perhaps you're right that Emotiva is unfairly singled out. Here's an example as egregious as any Emo amp:

Outlaw Audio offers a cheap knockoff of the perfectly competent NHT A1 monoblock amp, which they call the "M2200." NHT, being a responsible firm, obtained NRTL safety approval for the A1, as you can see from the ETL mark in the picture below.

(NHT A1 monobloc)

By contrast, here is a picture of a pair of Outlaw's NHT A1 knockoff for sale on the secondary market (i.e. not an airbrushed picture from the vender's website .)


I don't know if Outlaw Audio is lazy, cheap, or callous. But their failure to get NRTL safety certification for their cheap NHT A1 knockoff marks them definitively as one of those three things. That verdict is bolstered by the fact that the amp they knocked off does carry NRTL certification! So it's not even a question about whether the design would pass! Unfortunately, one does have to wonder how else their knockoff is "decontented" compared to the real thing.

One of the key things about audio, is ears. Nobody hears the same and that is why people have their own personal opinion about audio, right or wrong your ears are the final decision maker
That is a statement honored more often than not in the breach.

Fact of the matter is, few people rely on their ears. Most rely on their eyes and whatever biases have been crammed into their heads.

If people actually relied on their ears, as opposed to everything but, decisions would be made with full recognition of what almost 30 years of level-matched controlled subjective same/different listening sessions have told us about audible differences in audio electronics!
 
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