Emotiva vs. Rotel vs. Anthem

[LemonTech]

I posted this on AVS but did not get much help so hopefully you all will be more available.
Ok, I've been contemplating looking in to getting an amp for a couple months now (I've never owned one so be gentle) since I went to a high end theater show room and they made the recommendation. Currently I'm running a pair of B&W 683s and a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 sub with a Pioneer VSX-53 AVR. In the near future I plan to complete the 5.1 setup with matching 600 series speakers and eventually sell it all and move on to a more potent setup when I purchase a home. While I was being shown around the store and I explained to the salesman the gear I had, and he said I really needed an amp because the Pioneer's advertised wattage output is grossly overstated and the system would benefit tremendously from external amplification. He recommended a Rotel RB-1582 or an Anthem MCA20 since I was running a 2.1 system and I didn't tell him I planned to complete the surround setup
Once I left I started looking in to the two brands and I loved what I read, however, I've heard good things about Emotiva from AVS and other forums (the salesman said he thought they were outclassed by what he recommended). I'd like to get a 3 channel amp since I'm not too terribly concerned with amping a pair of 685 bookshelves. There are a couple of questions I have, first off is do I really need an amp for more power in a room that's only 13' x 15' or is it the clarity I'd benefit from (I watch movies at about -17dB or higher). Second, I've been told the Emo amps are great at giving a solid bass response whereas Rotel/Anthem have much more refined and clear highs but don't handle the lows as well, can anyone confirm if there's truth in this. Im fine with waiting for a good deal on a used amp to show up that meets my needs if it means I'll really be benefitting when comparing it to a new Emo amp. I just don't want to spend money I don't have to, or if possible avoid having to buy both todo an A/B test myself.
Thanks a ton in advance!

P.S. Does anyone know how old the Rotel RMB-1075 5 channel amp is? I'm seeing them all over for resale at fairly cheap prices.

 

[fuzz092888]

Well the Rotel RMB-1075 (maybe 10ish years old depending on when in production the one you were looking at was made) is completely different from newer Rotel amps, they switched from class A/B to class D I believe. I have a 1075 and I think it's awesome, handles anything I throw at it and sounds good.

That being said, if you can overcome a few biases and not let any pre-determinations sneak into your brain and color what you think you may be hearing, another member here has a pair of revel salon2s (in addition to philharmonic 3s, orions, and kef 201/2s or something like that) and he also has some big kick butt ATI amplifiers. He's claimed that he can't hear a difference between the crown XLS1500 and his ATI amps. Those ATI amps are beasts and they're supposed to be awesome, but he swears he can't hear a difference. This is a big deal when you can get a crown for about $350ish whereas any of the amps you're considering are probably over a grand.

I know I use a pro-amp in my setup and I honestly think it sounds every bit as good as the rotel I have. I have to tell you though, unless you feel like your speakers aren't performing adequately theres really no point in adding an amp. Yes you may gain a little big during big peaks and explosions where the extra headroom comes in handy, but on average you're speakers aren't going to be drawing a tremendous amount of power. So unless you really feel like you're missing something I wouldn't spend the money.

If you can, borrow an amp from somebody else and see if it makes a difference. Watch the same movie scenes and listen to the same music with the amp and without it to see if you notice a big difference. If the difference isn't big, or if there isn't a difference, don't waste the money.

 

[PENG]

I just picked up a little 22.5 lbs AVR-1912. Comparing it back and forth with my normal H.T. that has almost 1800W on hand and my 2 channel system that is powered by a 300WX2 amp, I am quite happy and can live with the 1912. All those talks about how Marantz, Anthem or Rotel have better/warmer sound do not hold true for me at all as my H.T. system is mainly based on Marantz and Anthem amps.

I do like my amps for other reasons but I cannot honestly tell you adding an amp or two will get you better sound than what your Elite is offering you already. I can tell you if you upgrade your speakers to one of those highly recommended ones by members here, will much more likely get you improved sound quality.

 

[jcl]

According to the home theater view here - http://www.hometheater.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements
the 683 is more difficult than the average speaker to drive. They *might* benefit from external amplification. Possibly more so once you add a center and surrounds.

Did you think the sound was lacking, or did the salesman put the bug in your ear?

The Emotiva amps are well respected around here. I won't get into the sound differences between amplifier discussion. If you search the forum you will find plenty on that.


My 2 cents - add the center & surrounds and then decide if you need more power.

 

[canelli]

LemonTech

I have driven the 683’s with a Pioneer SC-05. The amplifier section of the Pioneer did not hold its composure at higher volume levels and lower impedance speakers and went to high noticeable distortion. Since then, I found that there is a review of the SC-07 here on Audiohaulics and it came to the same conclusion for those models.

If I remember correctly, the 683’s impedance drops to around 4 ohms but with a nasty phase shift. Also, these speakers are not overly efficient. This combination became too difficult for my Pioneer to drive effectively. Both movies and music were affected by this.

If your Pioneer is performing like mine did, you will notice a nice difference with an amplifier able to handle the 683s.

I did an A/B comparison with a Denon 4311 and after sometime, there just wasn’t enough difference in my case. I ended up returning the 4311. I have an Anthem dealer a few blocks away and spent a lot of time listening to his amplifiers. He offered some good deals, but I kept looking. In the end, I bought a Parasound A51 Halo and later some new B&W speakers. I am still using the Pioneer as the Pre-Amp and happy with this combination.

I would not consider Emotiva since it lacks a UL listing. If it were to cause a fire or hurt someone, I don’t want that extra liability.

Don't forget that there is room to haggle. I bought my Halo at a greatly reduced price.

 

[LemonTech]

I felt the sound was lacking a while back but once I ran through a few iterations with the MCACC calibration I was much more pleased. I was looking in to amps before I went to just learn about them more than anything else and I went to the show room just to give a listen to higher grade equipment. I never really thought my speakers needed extra amping unless of course, I completed the system as you suggested. As I said the room is pretty small so there's plenty of power right now, and with the addition of the center I think it'd still be ok.

As suggested in a previous post it would an intriguing experiment to borrow an amp to see if there's much improvement. Eventually I'll upgrade to bigger and better equipment and at that point considering adding an amp would be more justified I think.

 

[PENG]

I agree base on the specs the 683 will likely benefit from a power amp but his room isn't that big so any improvements may not be significant to him. No harm to try for sure.

 

[LemonTech]

Yea I would like to set one up to, if nothing else, see what audible difference it could make in the room. However, I don't expect it to be life altering in a room so easy to fill. I was more curious on the opinions of people who have had the opportunity to compare.

 

[walter duque]

Yea I would like to set one up to, if nothing else, see what audible difference it could make in the room. However, I don't expect it to be life altering in a room so easy to fill. I was more curious on the opinions of people who have had the opportunity to compare.

IMO the big difference using high powered amps is when you start going from 0db to +3db to +6db. I just don't think low powered amps can give that kind of impact at that volume, and that is with the amps not clipping at all. It all depends on your listening preference I guess.

 

[Irvrobinson]

LemonTech, I think the dealer is leading you far astray. You don't have a power problem at all. I doubt you're using more than a few watts of power on average, perhaps less than a watt. While there can be qualitative differences between amplifiers at low output levels, especially the designs likely to be used in lower-priced multi-channel receivers, I'd recommend focusing your investments on better speakers first. Electronics, unless simply inadequate, are improvements best reserved as second or third order optimization, and only when you're trying to solve a specific problem (better handling of certain speaker load, more power, lower noise, etc.)

 

[jinjuku]

(the salesman said he thought they were outclassed by what he recommended)

Your sales person most likely never has even seen an Emotiva. I asked a local shop if they had any ears on and they didn't know they existed.

first off is do I really need an amp for more power in a room that's only 13' x 15' or is it the clarity I'd benefit from (I watch movies at about -17dB or higher).

I would guess your seating distance is somewhere around the 10 - 12 foot mark. I doubt you need external amplification.

Second, I've been told the Emo amps are great at giving a solid bass response whereas Rotel/Anthem have much more refined and clear highs but don't handle the lows as well

I can confirm that it is utter nonsense. I have had ears on the Emo XPA-3 and NAD C272, Crown DC 300A, Denon Receiver.

 

[LemonTech]

Are you saying you didn't hear a difference, or that it wasn't drastic? He had heard of Emotiva, but who knows if he has ever tested one. The more I think about it the more I think the only addition I should worry about is the center. I could add the rears but I doubt it would be worth the cost as they can not give the full effect since they would be parallel with the seating. It sounds pretty way it is now and the room is small enough I don't have to turn it too far up so the speakers seem to be getting enough power from what my novice ears can hear, but the dialogue can get lost in some scenes, the center will help with that.

 

[jinjuku]

Are you saying you didn't hear a difference, or that it wasn't drastic?

I'm saying that I have offered to the people that make claims like: Pro-Audio amps SQ sucks and something like Parasound is great to come over and 9 out of 10 coin flips tell me if they are listening to a Parasound or Pro Audio Crown amp. If they picked the Parasound amp 9/10 it was theirs.

I have even offered to cover air fare / hotel / rental car / food if they can.

No takers.

 

[LemonTech]

I'm saying that I have offered to the people that make claims like: Pro-Audio amps SQ sucks and something like Parasound is great to come over and 9 out of 10 coin flips tell me if they are listening to a Parasound or Pro Audio Crown amp. If they picked the Parasound amp 9/10 it was theirs.

I have even offered to cover air fare / hotel / rental car / food if they can.

No takers.

That's a big bet to make, very interesting. When ever I go to listen next, almost makes me want to make sure they don't tell me which I'm listening to to prevent placebo.

 

[jinjuku]

That's a big bet to make, very interesting. When ever I go to listen next, almost makes me want to make sure they don't tell me which I'm listening to to prevent placebo.

The best advise I can give is that the amps are at unity gain. I use 440/1K/10K test tones and make sure the multi-meter is reading the same on amps across the speaker terminals.

This means that the pre-amp levels are locked in. Even a decent amount of consumer amps will have gain pots.

 

[darien87]

I would not consider Emotiva since it lacks a UL listing. If it were to cause a fire or hurt someone, I don’t want that extra liability.

Really? That's your argument for not getting an Emotiva amp? Seems pretty paranoid to me. I've had 3 Emotiva amps and haven't had a problem. But now that you mention it, I don't know if ANY of my HT gear has a UL listing. Guess I better run home and unhook everything before I burn my house down.

 

[canelli]

“Really? That's your argument for not getting an Emotiva amp? Seems pretty paranoid to me.”

Yes, REALLY

They are too cheap for a UL listing, and you believe they actually spend the time and money to do proper internal testing. Yea, sure they do.

 

[walter duque]

Yes, REALLY

They are too cheap for a UL listing, and you believe they actually spend the time and money to do proper internal testing. Yea, sure they do.

You got me worried, can you please tell me where I can find the UL listing on this http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/content_products/manuals/Past/Preamp or receiver/Ref_50_manual.pdf

 

[canelli]

You got me worried,

Hopefully you still have time to return it

 

[darien87]

You got me worried, can you please tell me where I can find the UL listing on this http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/content_products/manuals/Past/Preamp or receiver/Ref_50_manual.pdf

Guess B&K's too cheap too. Maybe they didn't have any money left over after paying for that bomb-*** THX certification.