Elucidating AVR Channels vs Total Channels with an Amplifiers

F

Fried Chicken

Audioholic Intern
Page 19 of your manual indicates if you want to use the bi-amp feature then you give up the use of the rear surrounds....which makes sense since it's only got 7 channels of processing and after all the amp assign mode to biamp is called "5ch biamp". If you did hook up an amp to the rear surrounds you'd just get a full range L/R signal like the designated bi-amp channels get.
Ah ok. Finally. Answer.

Now I can sleep tonight.

Except with this being the case, how do the presence speakers work? And how does dialogue-lift work then? It has 9 speaker outputs on it. Does zone-2 only work when zone 1 is not being run in a 7.1 configuration?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Ah ok. Finally. Answer.

Now I can sleep tonight.

Except with this being the case, how do the presence speakers work? And how does dialogue-lift work then? It has 9 speaker outputs on it. Does zone-2 only work when zone 1 is not being run in a 7.1 configuration?
Sorry, thought that'd been covered. Manuals are good places to start, see what it says about dialogue lift, not familiar with that. Same for the various amp assign features of the avr. Many 7ch avrs had the option of running rear surrounds or front heights, just not at the same time, altho I had one that you could hook up all 9 channels but only run 7 at a time depending which sound mode you were running. Same for running the avr with internal amps, you'd need to make a choice between 5ch for main zone plus 2ch for zone 2, or run 7ch off the internal amps and use the zone 2 pre-out with an external amp.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I don’t like the crossover of the internal floorstanding speaker. I feel it’s wonky.
I also want to use those two extra channels of amplification to help boost more power (or am I misunderstanding something here?).

The SPL meter puts it at 120 dB, but I don’t think that’s right. Why would anyone ever need an amp then, much less a 200 watt/channel amp?
What? You think the speaker crossover is wonky? How on earth did you determine that?

Passive bi amping will still use the speaker's crossover too.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It’s all quite good, *however*, I think my RX-A810 is at or beyond its power limit. Between the extra speakers, larger speakers, and longer wires, I think it’s overstressed.
1. If the Sound Quality is all quite good and the AVR isn't overheating or shutting down, I wouldn't worry about it at all, especially if I were "poor". :D

Why do people buy big amps? It's probably just because they can. :D
 
F

Fried Chicken

Audioholic Intern
What? You think the speaker crossover is wonky? How on earth did you determine that?

Passive bi amping will still use the speaker's crossover too.
Something is wrong between the two speakers. They sound different and YPAO gives me different PEQ results for them. Besides that I sometimes hear weird distortions, but it could be the DSP of the yamaha, because I don’t get that in pure direct mode.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Something is wrong between the two speakers. They sound different and YPAO gives me different PEQ results for them. Besides that I sometimes hear weird distortions, but it could be the DSP of the yamaha, because I don’t get that in pure direct mode.
I would hope it gives different PEQ results because they're in different locations. That's why room correction exists. What is applied to each speaker has a lot more to do with the room than the speakers themselves. Also I don't understand how sometimes hearing distortions leads to "my crossovers are wonky". If you're distorting then the amp is clipping or a speaker is being overdriven. If it happens at lower volumes then you may have a blown speaker.
The SPL meter puts it at 120 dB, but I don’t think that’s right. Why would anyone ever need an amp then, much less a 200 watt/channel amp?
Okay first, why don't you think it's right? Second, most people do not in fact "need" 200wpc amps. They just think they do so they start fabricating "good" reasons like "wonky crossovers" and confirmation biased searches on the subject. If something is wrong between your two speakers then I think you should be looking there and not amplification. If something is wrong with the speakers you're not going to fix it with any amplifier no matter how powerful it is.
 
F

Fried Chicken

Audioholic Intern
I would hope it gives different PEQ results because they're in different locations. That's why room correction exists. What is applied to each speaker has a lot more to do with the room than the speakers themselves. Also I don't understand how sometimes hearing distortions leads to "my crossovers are wonky". If you're distorting then the amp is clipping or a speaker is being overdriven. If it happens at lower volumes then you may have a blown speaker.

Okay first, why don't you think it's right? Second, most people do not in fact "need" 200wpc amps. They just think they do so they start fabricating "good" reasons like "wonky crossovers" and confirmation biased searches on the subject. If something is wrong between your two speakers then I think you should be looking there and not amplification. If something is wrong with the speakers you're not going to fix it with any amplifier no matter how powerful it is.
I guess I’m being unclear here. The reason I think the crossovers are wonky is because I’ve heard weird transitions in scales, or scale-like patterns in music. Since I said that, I’ve been playing in pure direct mode only, and I haven’t noticed the same behavior. This leads me to believe the crossovers might, in-fact, not be wonky but rather the DSP of the receiver is being wonky.

The reason I thought Bi-Amping might help is because my understanding of Bi-Amping is that it bypasses the internal crossover of the tower and instead relies on the crossover of the yamaha receiver, which has shown itself to be *incredibly* reliable in all matters of music reproduction (save that aforementioned DSP weirdness).

The reason I think the speakers have issues is because the previous owner replaced the tweeters with silk-dome tweeters from parts-express. The reasoning there is beyond me, however having opened the tweeters myself, they are not placed uniformly in the case, and I suspect one tweeter (the left one) is significantly muffled in its reproduction of high trebles (hi-hat cymbals especially). This pushes the sound-stage to the right regardless of what the settings of my yamaha AVR Are (although in 7-channel stereo this effect is reduced).

The reason I don’t think it’s room effects is because 1. My room is relatively symmetrical, though not completely symmetrical. 2. My RTI A3 surrounds and my other polk surrounds which are placed way less symmetrically than my front speakers produce almost identical PEQ results.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
You just brought up several things that would cause me to drop those speakers, fast.
Whatever Mod the previous owner did, you likely won't be able to confirm if he modded the XO as well. Chances of dropping a tweeter into an existing speaker and having a perfect match to the TS Parameters, thus performance, is like playing the lottery.
Without some extensive research I would not attempt such a mod... and I'm learning speaker design. One pair of speakers I purchased was a modded kit from PE... and I am currently performing a new mod with the guidance of the designer who modded the kit in the first place. This includes me rebuilding his XOs too!

That, coupled with your experience setting them up in your room tells me something is wonky because they should just work if all is correct. (Room acoustics, aside, that is.)

Regardless:
The reason I thought Bi-Amping might help is because my understanding of Bi-Amping is that it bypasses the internal crossover of the tower and instead relies on the crossover of the yamaha receiver
This assumption is wrong. You are feeding the Low and High sections of the existing Passive XO the same "Full" signal as sent from the AVR. The existing Passive XO still has to process the separate Bands for the respective Drivers: the Low Pass Filter on the Woofer Circuit is still working the same as if you were just Single Amping the speaker, same as the High Pass Filter works for the Mids and Highs.
Yours may be 2.5-way, which still will work similarly in that the tweeter will be on its own circuit, and all the woofers, including the.5-way will be on a separate circuit. (My guess only, since I am unfamiliar with that speaker.)

That said, what could be happening is that the Replacement Tweeter and the .5-way woofer are not well matched, AND/OR that the XO was not adequately redesigned. Neither wins anything other than a failing grade.

My vote is new for new speakers.

You cannot Bi-Amp your way out of problems, be it room acoustics, Sound Quality, or bad speaker design.

Cheers,
R
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
So we're dealing with a previous owners' replacement tweeters without any idea whether they were an actual match to OEM let alone any crossover modification....that could be one reason you have issues with the speakers. While dsp may have a role, too, I'd change speakers first (or just continue to use the direct mode). I can think of only two avrs that had actual active crossovers (Onkyo 818 and 929, several years back). One reason why we call it passive bi-amping is due to leaving the passive crossover network in place, and since you are, you need to feed it with two full range signals which many avrs can do by duplicating the L/R signals in another set of terminals....
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I guess I’m being unclear here. The reason I think the crossovers are wonky is because I’ve heard weird transitions in scales, or scale-like patterns in music. Since I said that, I’ve been playing in pure direct mode only, and I haven’t noticed the same behavior. This leads me to believe the crossovers might, in-fact, not be wonky but rather the DSP of the receiver is being wonky.

The reason I thought Bi-Amping might help is because my understanding of Bi-Amping is that it bypasses the internal crossover of the tower and instead relies on the crossover of the yamaha receiver, which has shown itself to be *incredibly* reliable in all matters of music reproduction (save that aforementioned DSP weirdness).

The reason I think the speakers have issues is because the previous owner replaced the tweeters with silk-dome tweeters from parts-express. The reasoning there is beyond me, however having opened the tweeters myself, they are not placed uniformly in the case, and I suspect one tweeter (the left one) is significantly muffled in its reproduction of high trebles (hi-hat cymbals especially). This pushes the sound-stage to the right regardless of what the settings of my yamaha AVR Are (although in 7-channel stereo this effect is reduced).

The reason I don’t think it’s room effects is because 1. My room is relatively symmetrical, though not completely symmetrical. 2. My RTI A3 surrounds and my other polk surrounds which are placed way less symmetrically than my front speakers produce almost identical PEQ results.
I, ummm... yeah. Those speakers gotta go. You can't just replace tweeters like that and from what you describe it sounds extremely amateur. I'm glad you came here before spending money on the wrong thing. You don't have an amplification problem. You have a speaker problem.

So yeah, the crossovers may very well be wonky since they're designed specifically to work between the oem tweeter and oem drivers in that specific cabinet. When you replace any of the drivers a complete crossover overhaul is in order unless the replacements perfectly match the exact specs of the original. I would consider those speakers no longer accurate or functioning correctly. That explains a lot.

I don't think you understand how much speaker position and room dimensions can have on frequency response. PEQ results from room correction are pretty meaningless and not really a reliable metric for performance or accuracy.

Passive bi amping does not bypass a tower speaker's internal crossover. The signal still passes through the same crossover network. You would have to tear out the speaker's internal crossovers and use active crossovers with your amplification for each driver. However, if I were going to actively biamp a speaker I would buy one made for it or build one. Trying the former isn't as straightforward as it sounds.

You need new speakers. You will get far, far more improvement putting your money there. I would normally tell you to replace that sub pronto, but your speakers sound to me like they should be the priority here.
 
F

Fried Chicken

Audioholic Intern
Why would replacing tweeters cause the two speakers to sound different if they have they're the same?

the only difference I can tell is one seems squished in there.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
How do you know they're the same? The same driver the speaker manufacturer used is sold at parts-express? Or are you thinking all you have to do is match diameter or something?
 
F

Fried Chicken

Audioholic Intern
How do you know they're the same? The same driver the speaker manufacturer used is sold at parts-express? Or are you thinking all you have to do is match diameter or something?
The same between the two. The previous owner stated they replaced the titanium tweeters with silk tweeters. Idk why, I'm generally against modification.

Regardless, it should not cause a tonal difference between the two, if indeed the replacement tweeters are identical.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
The same between the two. The previous owner stated they replaced the titanium tweeters with silk tweeters. Idk why, I'm generally against modification.

Regardless, it should not cause a tonal difference between the two, if indeed the replacement tweeters are identical.
Are you telling a room full of cerifiable Audioholics what does or does not affect a speaker tonally? If one is titanium and the other is silk how are they the same?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Why would replacing tweeters cause the two speakers to sound different if they have they're the same?

the only difference I can tell is one seems squished in there.
If one is squished and the other is not that tells me amateur work and possibly even some damage. Either way, those speakers are no longer any good.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
The information you’ve given makes identifying any problem difficult, but what seems likely is that one of those tweeters is damaged, which would affect SQ. Keep in mind, tweeters tend to be the most fragile of the drivers; they usually don’t handle power the same and tend to be more efficient.
Without taking everything apart, it would be difficult to identify what was done with those speakers. If the Mod took into account correctly matching the drivers for XO, then designing and building an upgraded XO, then my guess is he just didn’t like the sound of the highs.
Or he destroyed the previous tweeters playing too loud. *shrugs
Possible problems could be many without knowing any of the details about that mod.

At some point above, I seem to recall you saying everything sounds fine in Direct Mode.
If this is the case, and everything changes when you switch to other modes, then your receiver is the problem. Something like that could be a problem in the digital board.

Either way, at this point, more clarification is necessary if we are to help you.

Other than to say, you do not need to chase an Amp right now. What is clear is that you have a problem in your existing chain and as I said before, with one small change... you cannot Amp yourself out of these problems.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
The information you’ve given makes identifying any problem difficult, but what seems likely is that one of those tweeters is damaged, which would affect SQ. Keep in mind, tweeters tend to be the most fragile of the drivers; they usually don’t handle power the same and tend to be more efficient.
Without taking everything apart, it would be difficult to identify what was done with those speakers. If the Mod took into account correctly matching the drivers for XO, then designing and building an upgraded XO, then my guess is he just didn’t like the sound of the highs.
Or he destroyed the previous tweeters playing too loud. *shrugs
Possible problems could be many without knowing any of the details about that mod.

At some point above, I seem to recall you saying everything sounds fine in Direct Mode.
If this is the case, and everything changes when you switch to other modes, then your receiver is the problem. Something like that could be a problem in the digital board.

Either way, at this point, more clarification is necessary if we are to help you.

Other than to say, you do not need to chase an Amp right now. What is clear is that you have a problem in your existing chain and as I said before, with one small change... you cannot Amp yourself out of these problems.
I agree with everything you're saying, but I think he needs to get a pair of speakers we all know work properly before attempting any more diagnoses. A squished tweeter doesn't sound good (figuratively and literally, lol). That doesn't necessarily rule out an issue with the receiver. Like you said, if his oservations are accurate it sounds like there could be, but I wouldn't feel comfortable replacing it to power damaged speakers. Those need to be addressed either way, new receiver or not.

I can't imagine how one would come to the conclusion that amplification or bi amping would fix anything, knowing mods have been made and there's visual evidence of damage to one of the tweeters. It seems very obvious to me why there are issues with sq.
 
F

Fried Chicken

Audioholic Intern
Well, I think I’m going to sell these and get a pair of Polk Audio RTI A5 or RTI8’s. This would be matched Or I could repair the existing paradigms I have, but they’re not tonally matched with the rest of the setup.

I think it’s a bit intuitive that the receiver is underpowered if it shut down due to heat already. That’s why I plan on getting a pair of relatively small RTI A5 vs the RTI A7’s.

Are you telling a room full of cerifiable Audioholics what does or does not affect a speaker tonally? If one is titanium and the other is silk how are they the same?
The original tweeters (plural - for both speakers) were titanium. The new tweeters (plural - for both speakers) are silk.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
I agree with everything you're saying, but I think he needs to get a pair of speakers we all know work properly before attempting any more diagnoses. A squished tweeter doesn't sound good (figuratively and literally, lol). That doesn't necessarily rule out an issue with the receiver. Like you said, if his oservations are accurate it sounds like there could be, but I wouldn't feel comfortable replacing it to power damaged speakers. Those need to be addressed either way, new receiver or not.

I can't imagine how one would come to the conclusion that amplification or bi amping would fix anything, knowing mods have been made and there's visual evidence of damage to one of the tweeters. It seems very obvious to me why there are issues with sq.
The speakers are definitely questionable, at best. If I were buying modded speakers, I'd ask for the model and schematics in order to now what I was getting. At least with Dennis, his mods are widely acknowledged to work excellently, and when asked, I received the schematics for my own project. :)

The problems keep vacillating between speakers and this statement that everything sounds fine in Direct. If the Tweets were damaged, they would not perform in any mode.
That aside, the modification is questionable at best.

@Fried Chicken would you be willing to take photos of the insides of the speakers? We would need to see the Tweeters. What is meant by squished? We would also need to see the XO. Knowing the model of the Tweet would be nice, too, as we can look and see it's performance criteria and thus cross reference perhaps to the actual XO transition to the High-Woofer. Seeing the XO itself might tell us if it was modded in addition to the Tweeter replacement.
I get and accept if you are not willing to do this. It may help us to help you. :)

Cheers!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Well, I think I’m going to sell these and get a pair of Polk Audio RTI A5 or RTI8’s. This would be matched Or I could repair the existing paradigms I have, but they’re not tonally matched with the rest of the setup.

I think it’s a bit intuitive that the receiver is underpowered if it shut down due to heat already. That’s why I plan on getting a pair of relatively small RTI A5 vs the RTI A7’s.



The original tweeters (plural - for both speakers) were titanium. The new tweeters (plural - for both speakers) are silk.
I missed that... you are getting overheating faults? That is definitely a bad sign.

As mentioned above, the Polk Speakers are not friendly electrical loads. You could be well on the way to blowing out your AVR.

Do you employ an active cooling solution on your AVR? Something like the AC Infinity Aircom units:
Or more simply just some 120mm fans:
(Just examples, but I use an Aircom similar to the first link and it is great!)

Anyway, the other aspect of this is that you may well be overdriving the AVR with multiple Polk Speakers. Getting good amplification that can handle the current loads posed by those speakers is important. Bi-Amping will not help that, though, just to be clear.
The electrical load of those speakers will generate a significant amount of heat in the Amp Stage which then must be dissipated. Heat is the number one killer of electronics.
 

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