haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
just one more reason why I for one am not ready to buy an EV .........
Yeah, there was a case with a taxi driver around here in a Mercedes who was unlucky to back-up onto something on the sidewalk, 2 month old car. There was a small scratch on the bittom of a small part of the battery pack.

$50.000 bill to replace full battery pack, car was possibly not safe to drive to due to fire hazard issues.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Spartan
I have a 2023 Subaru Cross Trek gas powered car gets 30 plus around town so electric won't be in the mix anytime soon. This thing can get mid 30s on the highway if I drive it easy. :)
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Sounds like a big EV issue where the only real support you have is the manufacturer not the dealer and at times, that's not enough if you don't get the right manufacturer tech group..

Oh this is interesting Tesla Model S insurance rates. When we had ours its was $5670, now in FLA over $7 k https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/vehicles/tesla/model-s/
I have only one word: inrediblyfu$#$$#crazyinsane!
The premium over here in Norway, for me for a BMW730d with the best possible super-coverage is $550 per year
 
Last edited:
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
The ironic thing about EV success and Norway is how little their population is and the size of the country. Heck, we have a dog sled race in this country that's as long as the longest drive(I believe about 1100 miles) over there !
Small country and small population, but Tesla sell more cars in Norway by pure numbers than Italy, Spain, France combined. (old figure though)

Screenshot 2024-02-24 at 11.13.01.png
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Small country and small population, but Tesla sell more cars in Norway by pure numbers than Italy, Spain, France combined. (old figure though)

View attachment 66058
Canada is nowhere on that list? I see Teslas on the highway all of the time. Having the second largest land mass in the world is a big issue though. The distance between cities outside of the Greater Toronto Area means that the next charging station could be very far away. I have met people out east who drove EVs from Ontario to the Maritimes but had to plan carefully. I'm not even sure if that's feasible traveling west from Ontario to Saskatchewan. It's a very long drive through northern Ontario and the Prairies. I still think North American automakers should have concentrated on gas-electric hybrids to allow time for electric infrastructure to catch up. I have a friend who was an early adopter with the Chevy Volt and his gas usage is minimal.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Canada is nowhere on that list? I see Teslas on the highway all of the time. Having the second largest land mass in the world is a big issue though. The distance between cities outside of the Greater Toronto Area means that the next charging station could be very far away. I have met people out east who drove EVs from Ontario to the Maritimes but had to plan carefully. I'm not even sure if that's feasible traveling west from Ontario to Saskatchewan. It's a very long drive through northern Ontario and the Prairies. I still think North American automakers should have concentrated on gas-electric hybrids to allow time for electric infrastructure to catch up. I have a friend who was an early adopter with the Chevy Volt and his gas usage is minimal.
COLD WEATHER RELIABILITY. One of the reasons some Canadians are not interested in purchasing an EV is because of the battery range and reliability(opens in a new tab) of the vehicle in cold weather, according to surveys.Nov 8, 2023
.
 
N

nicoleise

Junior Audioholic
Small country and small population, but Tesla sell more cars in Norway by pure numbers than Italy, Spain, France combined. (old figure though)

View attachment 66058
Note that this is likely wildly misleading due to subsidiaries. Germany had a very liberal subsidiary, where buyers would essentially get a 6,000 € check from the government when buying an EV as a new car.

What made the German subsidiary special is that the sole criteria is that you keep the car until its legally a used car. This happens rather quickly in German at just 6,000 kilometres and/or 6 months. After this, you're perfectly entitled to go out and buy another brand new EV with a subsidiary.

At the same time, demand for Tesla's were greater than the supply, so the depreciation on these cars were minimal (until Tesla drastically reduced prices, then it was the opposite).

Furthermore, Germany has a 9/19% sales tax where the latter rate applies to cars. In Denmark for example, the sales tax is 25%.

So a lot of those "German" Tesla's are actually Tesla's that random Germans bought to have essentially a car for free for half a year, after which it was exported to someone in another country, like Denmark, for people looking to save a bit on the price or skip the wait.

In Germany, real EV sales are not very significant. In Denmark, on the other hand, there are more EV than traditional cars sold per year, but since many of them were imported as outlined above, the above table would underreport Denmark and overreport Germany, both by large numbers.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Canada is nowhere on that list? I see Teslas on the highway all of the time. Having the second largest land mass in the world is a big issue though. The distance between cities outside of the Greater Toronto Area means that the next charging station could be very far away. I have met people out east who drove EVs from Ontario to the Maritimes but had to plan carefully. I'm not even sure if that's feasible traveling west from Ontario to Saskatchewan. It's a very long drive through northern Ontario and the Prairies. I still think North American automakers should have concentrated on gas-electric hybrids to allow time for electric infrastructure to catch up. I have a friend who was an early adopter with the Chevy Volt and his gas usage is minimal.
The most recent I could find is from 2022 ... maybe different now?

I guess those big distances could be pretty scary in winter, if you are stuck in a real Blizzard.......
I hear that people around Calgary is advised to have full survival equipment in the car at winter.

There are also instances of people being stuck in the car at the mountains in the winter, over here, for over a week; without possibility to go anywhere further along the road. (they found a cabin to stay though)

So,if you are stick at midwinter in a blizzard at -40° F and there is not so. much battery o_O o_O o_O o_O
 
Last edited:
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Note that this is likely wildly misleading .....
Not sure how what is misleading .... the government takes serious steps to go in environmental friendly direction, way more than any other country on the planet, could I kindly request you to lease explain what is misleading?
These are real car sales numbers

I don´t believe people over here think so much about green.... but rather what is best for their wallet!
 
N

nicoleise

Junior Audioholic
Not sure how what is misleading .... the government takes serious steps to go in environmental friendly direction, way more than any other country on the planet, could I kindly request you to lease explain what is misleading?
These are real car sales numbers

I don´t believe people over here think so much about green.... but rather what is best for their wallet!
Sure, and sorry if I came across more "strongly worded" than intended. Was in a bit of a hurry. And just to clarify I was referring to the table, not to your statements.

I simply meant that the sales numbers do not necessarily reflect the actual adoption of EVs (or Tesla's specifically) by country, and that using it as such can be very misleading.

To elaborate on this point, your table shows some 3,000 Tesla's sold (directly) in Denmark, and the Danish registration statistics agree with that number. But the real number in terms of adoption is 4-5x that.

The total addition of EVs in Denmark in 2022 were 49,200 vehicles, and more interesting 18,400 of them were imported (an unusually large portion). This is all brands, but bare with me.

I think it's (very) safe to assume 15,000 of those imports were Tesla model 3, but for the sake of being conservative, I'll continue with an assumption based on 10,000. I'll explain why later.

So in terms of "adoption", the table with it's sales numbers puts Tesla as the #18 best selling brand in Denmark and the Model 3 specifically as the #82 most selling car model in Denmark in 2022, next to such cars as the BMW i4 and the Dacia Sandero. Not that impressive.

But if all the (for all intents and purposes "new") imports are added into the consideration, Tesla becomes the #2-#4 best selling brand of 2022 and the Model 3 becomes the most sold model of the year by a decent margin - just as was the case in 2023 with the Model Y.

That is much more consistent with reality, which was that these cars popped up left and right and that you could basically not go for any drive or go through a parking lot without seeing several. Much more presence than the official figures warrant.

Or in other words; much more "adoption" in Denmark (and conversely much less in Germany) than the table suggests.


So what happened? Well, that's were the subsidiary in Germany comes in.

Due to the subsidiary I mentioned before, Germans could buy a model 3, drive in it for six months, sell it and essentially have driven for free for half a year, "fuel" included. They could even turn a small profit. But to keep up the arrangement the buyer had to sell the car and buy a new one to repeat the cycle, and Germans wouldn't buy these EVs on the second hand market generally, since they would cost like new, but have no subsidiary for the buyer.

This fueled enormous demand for new EVs in Germany. At the same time, this artificial demand helped fuel already very long waiting times for a new Model 3, and thus an export market was born for German subsidized electric cars to be imported into Denmark, so people could skip the months and years of wait time on a new Model 3.

(I call this demand artificial because it was obvious speculation for the most part. Most of these cars were obviously not daily drivers, they had all driven exactly 6,000 km when sold and were advertised as having perfect paint coats, etc. I don't think they drove on a treadmill per say, but these were clearly not peoples main/only car. So when I describe Germans buying them and having a car for free for six months, I'm being very generous with the motivation behind this.)


So although accurate statistics do not exist, it's likely that well beyond 10,000 of the Tesla vehicles in your table that are attributed to Germany were actually driving in Denmark by the time they celebrated their 7 month birthday.

So why the assumption of 10,000 imported model 3s?

Well, it's simple. There weren't really any other candidates available at such scale and that made financial sense to import. Obviously not all 18,400 cars were Model 3s or Tesla's, for example some Porsche Taycan owners chose to import from Belgium due to a lower VAT. But considering the scale of cars involved and having obviously seem much of this go on first hand (advertisements for cars, etc.) it was like 80+% Model 3s.

Also this was no small scale event, several companies propped up from nowhere to facilitate the import of these subsidized EVs. It became its own little subsection of the market and it was a booming industry until Germany finally and obviously ended the subsidiary, as it was rather pointless for them to pay for EV adoption in a bunch of other countries.


So in this case, you see quite the disparity between "sales" and "adoption". Is a car the #1 or the #82 most common choice for people in a country? A significant difference, I would argue.

And on the flip side, Germany seems a lot more into adopting EVs than they really are, because the sales are generated by something other than replacing your ICE car with an EV, as would be the logical conclusion. In reality, as soon as the subsidiary was ended, sales numbers plummeted for EVs in Germany, and in fact they are now importing premium used ICE vehicles from Denmark to meet demand, something that would be unthinkable a fee years ago.


I mention all of this because you seem to use the table to compare the adoption by sales numbers of EVs/Tesla's across countries.

All I intended to say was that it's often times misleading to draw any meaningful conclusions about the adoption of EVs by country from such sales statistics, because international car markets are a complex affair.

BR,
Nicolai
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Sure, and sorry if I came across more "strongly worded" than intended. Was in a bit of a hurry. And just to clarify I was referring to the table, not to your statements.

I simply meant that the sales numbers do not necessarily reflect the actual adoption of EVs (or Tesla's specifically) by country, and that using it as such can be very misleading.

To elaborate on this point, your table shows some 3,000 Tesla's sold (directly) in Denmark, and the Danish registration statistics agree with that number. But the real number in terms of adoption is 4-5x that.

The total addition of EVs in Denmark in 2022 were 49,200 vehicles, and more interesting 18,400 of them were imported (an unusually large portion). This is all brands, but bare with me.

I think it's (very) safe to assume 15,000 of those imports were Tesla model 3, but for the sake of being conservative, I'll continue with an assumption based on 10,000. I'll explain why later.

So in terms of "adoption", the table with it's sales numbers puts Tesla as the #18 best selling brand in Denmark and the Model 3 specifically as the #82 most selling car model in Denmark in 2022, next to such cars as the BMW i4 and the Dacia Sandero. Not that impressive.

But if all the (for all intents and purposes "new") imports are added into the consideration, Tesla becomes the #2-#4 best selling brand of 2022 and the Model 3 becomes the most sold model of the year by a decent margin - just as was the case in 2023 with the Model Y.

That is much more consistent with reality, which was that these cars popped up left and right and that you could basically not go for any drive or go through a parking lot without seeing several. Much more presence than the official figures warrant.

Or in other words; much more "adoption" in Denmark (and conversely much less in Germany) than the table suggests.


So what happened? Well, that's were the subsidiary in Germany comes in.

Due to the subsidiary I mentioned before, Germans could buy a model 3, drive in it for six months, sell it and essentially have driven for free for half a year, "fuel" included. They could even turn a small profit. But to keep up the arrangement the buyer had to sell the car and buy a new one to repeat the cycle, and Germans wouldn't buy these EVs on the second hand market generally, since they would cost like new, but have no subsidiary for the buyer.

This fueled enormous demand for new EVs in Germany. At the same time, this artificial demand helped fuel already very long waiting times for a new Model 3, and thus an export market was born for German subsidized electric cars to be imported into Denmark, so people could skip the months and years of wait time on a new Model 3.

(I call this demand artificial because it was obvious speculation for the most part. Most of these cars were obviously not daily drivers, they had all driven exactly 6,000 km when sold and were advertised as having perfect paint coats, etc. I don't think they drove on a treadmill per say, but these were clearly not peoples main/only car. So when I describe Germans buying them and having a car for free for six months, I'm being very generous with the motivation behind this.)


So although accurate statistics do not exist, it's likely that well beyond 10,000 of the Tesla vehicles in your table that are attributed to Germany were actually driving in Denmark by the time they celebrated their 7 month birthday.

So why the assumption of 10,000 imported model 3s?

Well, it's simple. There weren't really any other candidates available at such scale and that made financial sense to import. Obviously not all 18,400 cars were Model 3s or Tesla's, for example some Porsche Taycan owners chose to import from Belgium due to a lower VAT. But considering the scale of cars involved and having obviously seem much of this go on first hand (advertisements for cars, etc.) it was like 80+% Model 3s.

Also this was no small scale event, several companies propped up from nowhere to facilitate the import of these subsidized EVs. It became its own little subsection of the market and it was a booming industry until Germany finally and obviously ended the subsidiary, as it was rather pointless for them to pay for EV adoption in a bunch of other countries.


So in this case, you see quite the disparity between "sales" and "adoption". Is a car the #1 or the #82 most common choice for people in a country? A significant difference, I would argue.

And on the flip side, Germany seems a lot more into adopting EVs than they really are, because the sales are generated by something other than replacing your ICE car with an EV, as would be the logical conclusion. In reality, as soon as the subsidiary was ended, sales numbers plummeted for EVs in Germany, and in fact they are now importing premium used ICE vehicles from Denmark to meet demand, something that would be unthinkable a fee years ago.


I mention all of this because you seem to use the table to compare the adoption by sales numbers of EVs/Tesla's across countries.

All I intended to say was that it's often times misleading to draw any meaningful conclusions about the adoption of EVs by country from such sales statistics, because international car markets are a complex affair.

BR,
Nicolai
sorry, I have no idea what is your point?
What is misleading??

I have been to 45+ countries, I never seen any EV car adoption rate close to Norway, good or bad?
I don’t know but the numbers are clear
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I only know the US is far from where Norway is :) We have more resistance to the concept here, as well as the logistical impediments....we're probably more suited to a hybrid solution at least in the near term.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I only know the US is far from where Norway is :) We have more resistance to the concept here, as well as the logistical impediments....we're probably more suited to a hybrid solution at least in the near term.
I reckon range is a challenge.... with these longer distances
 
N

nicoleise

Junior Audioholic
sorry, I have no idea what is your point?
What is misleading??

I have been to 45+ countries, I never seen any EV car adoption rate close to Norway, good or bad?
I don’t know but the numbers are clear
I don't think you see me writing that Norway doesn't have a very high adoption of EVs?

I'm also not saying your numbers are wrong or false.

I'm simply saying that you can't take sales statistics (especially not for a single brand) and extrapolate these to indicate the extend of adoption of EVs. That is what I find misleading. It's not something those numbers can actually do.

Note that Eppie for example immediately pondered over the fact that Canada isn't on the list despite seeing Tesla's on the road. I had the same notion - I see Tesla's left and right and there are substantially more EVs and specifically Tesla's here than your table would indicate.

If you look at more meaningful sources, for example the registration data of EVs in the EU27 as percentage of new registrations, you'll find a picture much more in line with reality, when speaking of EV adoption. Note that this is still old data (2022 as your table).

Please note how many countries shift position significantly in the "ranking" when you factor in inhabitants, all car brands and look at registrations (graph on the left) vs sales numbers from a single brand.

In my opinion, this data is much more valid as an indication of EV adoption, but even so still only for 2022 in isolation. It's not an accumulative number. So it doesn't tell us what is on the street, but rather how what is on the streets is changing.

To expand on that point, Denmark had registered a total of 100,000 EVs by October 12, 2023 and 200,000 EVs by end of the same year. So the first 100,000 vehicles took around a decade while the next 100,000 took less than three months. So in a changing market like EVs, it's not always reliable to study snapshots of two years ago.



I'm raising this point because it is exceptionally difficult to actually find reliable, neutral and comparable information on specifically the cumulative adoption of EVs by country - and probably because of that, most of the EV debate seems to constantly revolve around drawing conclusions from statistical sources that aren't really suited to make those conclusions. Not to even begin on the lobbying and other influences on the majority of available data out there.

In my opinion it's a plague of the EV debate because if reliable and accurate data is presented in a loyal way, everyone benefits except perhaps those with vested interests (lobbying) and honestly, I couldn't care less if their perspectives arent honoured.

You see the exact same with fires, where data is misused or not used. Every EV fire gets massive attention, yet statistically they are significantly less likely to burst into flames than ICE vehicles. The issue is rather to put out the fires in EVs, and when we discuss this with valid data, we find effective solutions, like different methods of firefighting. But when we misuse data, we get dumb poop like "Ban EVs from ferries and parking structures, and if you own one, park it outside your garage well clear of anything."

Valid data and loyal use of it is important. :)
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
I reckon range is a challenge.... with these longer distances
Yes it is and the reason the wife and I sold out 2020 Model S. Range, and charging infrastructure just wasn't there to support our deserve to travel by not taking our main interstate hwy's. Sure today, the infrastructure has been boosted along the major interstate hwy's, but you had better have a full charge if you drive the back roads of the US.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Another thing here guys is the simple fuel prices.....
Today, the price of Diesel around her is NOK 24.78 per liter, that translates to USD 8.92 per gallon

Maybe there would be some outrage in US with such fuel prices, I reckon it´s something like around $4 or less per gallen, way way way below what we do have here..... so cost of fuel is a major driver for EV cars all across Nordics...
 
Last edited:
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think you see me writing that Norway doesn't have a very high adoption of EVs?

I'm also not saying your numbers are wrong or false.

I'm simply saying that you can't take sales statistics (especially not for a single brand) and extrapolate these to indicate the extend of adoption of EVs. That is what I find misleading. It's not something those numbers can actually do.

Note that Eppie for example immediately pondered over the fact that Canada isn't on the list despite seeing Tesla's on the road. I had the same notion - I see Tesla's left and right and there are substantially more EVs and specifically Tesla's here than your table would indicate.

If you look at more meaningful sources, for example the registration data of EVs in the EU27 as percentage of new registrations, you'll find a picture much more in line with reality, when speaking of EV adoption. Note that this is still old data (2022 as your table).

Please note how many countries shift position significantly in the "ranking" when you factor in inhabitants, all car brands and look at registrations (graph on the left) vs sales numbers from a single brand.

In my opinion, this data is much more valid as an indication of EV adoption, but even so still only for 2022 in isolation. It's not an accumulative number. So it doesn't tell us what is on the street, but rather how what is on the streets is changing.

To expand on that point, Denmark had registered a total of 100,000 EVs by October 12, 2023 and 200,000 EVs by end of the same year. So the first 100,000 vehicles took around a decade while the next 100,000 took less than three months. So in a changing market like EVs, it's not always reliable to study snapshots of two years ago.



I'm raising this point because it is exceptionally difficult to actually find reliable, neutral and comparable information on specifically the cumulative adoption of EVs by country - and probably because of that, most of the EV debate seems to constantly revolve around drawing conclusions from statistical sources that aren't really suited to make those conclusions. Not to even begin on the lobbying and other influences on the majority of available data out there.

In my opinion it's a plague of the EV debate because if reliable and accurate data is presented in a loyal way, everyone benefits except perhaps those with vested interests (lobbying) and honestly, I couldn't care less if their perspectives arent honoured.

You see the exact same with fires, where data is misused or not used. Every EV fire gets massive attention, yet statistically they are significantly less likely to burst into flames than ICE vehicles. The issue is rather to put out the fires in EVs, and when we discuss this with valid data, we find effective solutions, like different methods of firefighting. But when we misuse data, we get dumb poop like "Ban EVs from ferries and parking structures, and if you own one, park it outside your garage well clear of anything."

Valid data and loyal use of it is important. :)
I agree that new car sales and EV adoption rate is two very different things indeed, the guys buying a Tesla and decommissioning an older EV does not count to the EV adoption rate, but if we look at what is happening around here it has been a momentous rate of petrol and diesel cars going out ... to be replaced by EV´s

It may also be that the source I cited is very unreliable, probably official figures from, say Tesla would be better!
I am not sure if there are any valid reliable sources to EV adoption .....

Again, it´s a debate how much more environmental friendly some EV´s are, we need to look into the whole lifecycle of the car, including the production line, and the production line of batteries and so on ....

About fire, yes there was a major fire in a parking garage outside Stavanger Airport some years ago, even closing down the whole airport. the source of the fire was a Diesel car, I don´t remember which brand.-
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Full Audioholic
The problem is charging power supplies via a plug in, has been super seeded, It's dead technology. And has been superseded with on board chargers, powered by a very small petrol engine.This allows for unlimited millage , without the fear of the battery going flat. This was tested using AUDI prototypes.

 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top