Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[lovinthehd]

Yes -- there was a time when DTS-HD referred to a totally different codec. I remember that. Today, according to this source I mentioned, Master Audio is lumped together with "DTS-HD" and shown as such on the AVR displays. It's confusing, to be sure, but he told me that it was a decision DTS made and ultimately implemented it in firmware updates for receiver brands. So, now, when you view a film that contains a DTS Master Audio soundtrack, the front of the AVR just reads "DTS-HD."

I hate it, too.

However, I did notice, when I looked at pics of Treb's Onkyo front display he provided, that apparently some brands are still using "MSTR" at the end of the reference -- perhaps the pics Treb took were before the Onkyo did a firmware update...I don't know. But I was assured that there was some kind of changelog made to DTS' decoding algorithm wherein Master Audio soundtracks only show as "DTS-HD."

I can share his PM to me about this, from another forum, if you'd like.

I'd have to look at my avrs as to what they display. I just remember a time when there was a difference....and seems the two parts of your disc simply had some differences to trigger your avr to see it as a different codec. Did you apply an upmixer to this part of the disc and did it retain that for the next time played?

 

[John Lohmann]

I'd have to look at my avrs as to what they display. I just remember a time when there was a difference....and seems the two parts of your disc simply had some differences to trigger your avr to see it as a different codec. Did you apply an upmixer to this part of the disc and did it retain that for the next time played?

Have a look at what Treb said after your reply -- I believe that was the answer. It came down to sampling frequency on this Scream disc.

 

[lovinthehd]

Have a look at what Treb said after your reply -- I believe that was the answer. It came down to sampling frequency on this Scream disc.

Don't see anything in between our posts....but treb knows this stuff better than most!

 

[isolar8001]

It appears this thread is older than its tenure here on Audioholics....same OP based on the "what are you listening to?" posts over there.

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I am running an Onkyo TX-SR605 AVR, which was purchased in and around when the model hit the market (circa 2007 or so), and while we have experienced zero issues with it thus far (save for what may be a now-failing HDMI out port that I use only for checking the receiver's settings on my 4K...

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Owner of New Denon AVR-X2800h...Can Someone Please Help with Sound Mode Confusion?

I finally bit the bullet and replaced our Onkyo SR605 from circa 2007 (which was still going strong save for a dying HDMI out) with a new Denon AVR-X2800h based on budget and needs. But being so familiar with Onkyo products (I wanted another one, but their new receivers don't allow you to see...

www.hometheaterforum.com

 

[John Lohmann]

Don't see anything in between our posts....but treb knows this stuff better than most!

Here was the post:

The “Scream” 1-4 blu-rays are in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 48kHz. The DTS HD Master Audio intro is also in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 BUT at 96kHz. DTS Neural:X does NOT work with DTS HD Master Audio above 48kHz. So, the intro is played with a straight DTS HD Master Audio decode and then the movie plays with DTS Neural:X by default.

This behavior is not exclusive to the Denon. My Onkyo does as much with the “Scream” discs. But, while DTS Neural:X is locked out during the intro, DTS Virtual:X works when the Speaker Virtualizer is ON using a 5.1 speaker configuration. Again, simply press the MOVIE button repeatedly to select a straight decode of a given signal when the “+ DSurr” or “+ Neural:X” displays get obnoxious when playing multichannel tracks.

 

[lovinthehd]

Here was the post:

The “Scream” 1-4 blu-rays are in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 48kHz. The DTS HD Master Audio intro is also in DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 BUT at 96kHz. DTS Neural:X does NOT work with DTS HD Master Audio above 48kHz. So, the intro is played with a straight DTS HD Master Audio decode and then the movie plays with DTS Neural:X by default.

This behavior is not exclusive to the Denon. My Onkyo does as much with the “Scream” discs. But, while DTS Neural:X is locked out during the intro, DTS Virtual:X works when the Speaker Virtualizer is ON using a 5.1 speaker configuration. Again, simply press the MOVIE button repeatedly to select a straight decode of a given signal when the “+ DSurr” or “+ Neural:X” displays get obnoxious when playing multichannel tracks.

Yes, I saw that but wasn't where you said so wasn't sure what you were referring to. This just reinforces what I said....

 

[John Lohmann]

Yes, I saw that but wasn't where you said so wasn't sure what you were referring to. This just reinforces what I said....

Oh, I wasn't referring to looking at his reply after your LATEST reply on THIS page above -- it was going back a little based on the posting history.

What do you mean by "reinforces what you said" -- can you be a bit more specific? Because he was mentioning sampling frequencies and how this may have, for lack of a better term, confused the upmixer algorithm. I believe you mentioned "DTS-HD" being a different codec separate from DTS-HD MA.

 

[Trebdp83]

There are two DTS-HD codecs. One is lossy and called DTS-HD High Resolution Audio. The other is the lossless DTS-HD Master Audio. Of course, there is also plain ol’ lossy DTS which is capable of 5.1 over coax/optical and has been around for a long time and was available on laserdisc and CD before DVD and blu-ray.

If any flavor of DTS comes in at 96kHz, the DTS Neural:X up mixer cannot be selected as the Sound Mode using the X2800H. Though, if using the Speaker Virtualizer, DTS Virtual:X will be selectable as the Sound Mode.

One might see a few different Sound Mode/ Input Signal displays on different AVRs when playing a disc such as “Scream” on blu-ray as the messages and trailers switch between DD 2.0 and DD 5.1. Play the movie and the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 intro comes in at 96kHz while the movie itself comes in at 48kHz. DTS Neural: X would be disabled for the intro and return for the movie if it was the last Sound Mode used for DTS-HD Master Audio 48kHz.

 

[John Lohmann]

There are two DTS-HD codecs. One is lossy and called DTS-HD High Resolution Audio. The other is the lossless DTS-HD Master Audio. Of course, there is also plain ol’ lossy DTS which is capable of 5.1 over coax/optical and has been around for a long time and was available on laserdisc and CD before DVD and blu-ray.

Correct.

If any flavor of DTS comes in at 96kHz, the DTS Neural:X up mixer cannot be selected as the Sound Mode using the X2800H. Though, if using the Speaker Virtualizer, DTS Virtual:X will be selectable as the Sound Mode.

I believe I'm getting it now, based on what you explained earlier -- I'm not using the Speaker Virtualizer, so that's probably why the Master Audio mini-demo at the start of the Scream disc didn't show as "DTSHD + Neural:X," but the feature film did. Is this a limitation of a series like the 2800?

One might see a few different Sound Mode/ Input Signal displays on different AVRs when playing a disc such as “Scream” on blu-ray as the messages and trailers switch between DD 2.0 and DD 5.1. Play the movie and the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 intro comes in at 96kHz while the movie itself comes in at 48kHz. DTS Neural: X would be disabled for the intro and return for the movie if it was the last Sound Mode used for DTS-HD Master Audio 48kHz.

Yes -- and indeed, when trailers and promos switch to 2.0 Dolby, the Denon switches to "Dolby Surround" mode, as evidenced on the front panel. All that seems to be working correctly, but at the expense (as we discussed) of the upmixer designations being attached to EVERY multichannel signal I play through the AVR (even though 5.1 tracks are supposedly not being affected by the upmixers). It seems the only way I can get 2.0 signals (whether Dolby or DTS) to engage automatically when necessary is to leave the upmixers on all the time.

 

[isolar8001]

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, I wasn't referring to looking at his reply after your LATEST reply on THIS page above -- it was going back a little based on the posting history.

What do you mean by "reinforces what you said" -- can you be a bit more specific? Because he was mentioning sampling frequencies and how this may have, for lack of a better term, confused the upmixer algorithm. I believe you mentioned "DTS-HD" being a different codec separate from DTS-HD MA.

I also mentioned other differences within the codec's creation, like channel count, could possibly be in play....sampling rate differences were also mentioned in that link I posted. Just something different enough in the codec so as to not to trigger your upmixer preference from previous use.

 

[John Lohmann]

I also mentioned other differences within the codec's creation, like channel count, could possibly be in play....sampling rate differences were also mentioned in that link I posted. Just something different enough in the codec so as to not to trigger your upmixer preference from previous use.

Oh, alright -- I'll go back and look at your original comment there.

 

[Trebdp83]

The DTS Neural:X behavior concerning DTS/DTS-HD at 96kHz is present all the way up to the A1H. DTS/DTS-HD at 96zHz cannot have DTS Neural:X applied to it, though DTS Virtual:X will still work. But, if it is a DTS:X at 96kHz signal, DTS Virtual:X cannot be applied to it.

 

[John Lohmann]

The DTS Neural:X behavior concerning DTS/DTS-HD at 96kHz is present all the way up to the A1H. DTS/DTS-HD at 96zHz cannot have DTS Neural:X applied to it, though DTS Virtual:X will still work. But, if it is a DTS:X at 96kHz signal, DTS Virtual:X cannot be applied to it.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[lovinthehd]

Damn complex codecs!

 

[John Lohmann]

 

[John Lohmann]

Here's another question with regard to the upmixers (specifically Dolby Surround):

Last night, I threw in a DVD of the original House on Haunted Hill (Warner Bros. anamorphic widescreen transfer) as part of our Halloween horror viewing marathon this month, and because the disc has a Dolby Digital 1.0 mono track, the front of the Denon read "DD + DSurr." The previous DVD I owned of this title from a bootleg-esque studio called Alpha Video contained a 2.0 mono track (also in Dolby Digital), so whenever I watched THAT disc, my old AVR would kick into Pro Logic II Movie mode, appropriately. But with this newer disc I replaced that one with, the audio mix is in Dolby Digital 1.0 mono -- I suppose this is why the Denon just shows "DD" on the display.

Still, I wonder...because the Dolby Surround upmixer WAS supposedly "engaged" here, why didn't it somehow "affect" the 1.0 signal? Like, why didn't the Denon attempt to "spread" this mono track to other speakers (it all came out of the center) -- is it because it was a TRUE mono track, so it can ONLY come out of the center (unless one of those weird DSP modes like "Mono Movie" were used)?

 

[Kaskade89052]

I have another question for you, Treb (or anyone else that may be able to assist; I only mentioned member Treb because he has been knowledgeable about the intricacies regarding the inner workings of these Denon AVRs):

Last night we watched our remastered Blu-ray steelbook (well, the disc, not the steelbook itself, LOL) of Christmas Vacation that came out a few years ago (the last high definition release before Warner put out the 4K version), and it contains a DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 stereo track. In the past when we watched this disc through our Onkyo 605, the whole mix would come from only the two front left/right channels because that AVR didn't have the processing power to properly steer two-channel bitstreamed DTS Master Audio signals (so the AVR would drop back to standard "Stereo" mode). Now that we have the Denon 2800, the DTS Neural:X upmixer, of course, is used to process signals like this, but when we watched Christmas Vacation last night through the Denon, the front display read "DTSHD + Neural:X."

Now, while usually, on the surface, this wouldn't be an issue and would actually seem correct, that's not how this AVR has been behaving since I've owned it -- when watching discs with TWO-CHANNEL soundtracks, the Denon has showed JUST the name of the UPMIXER being engaged, like "Dolby Surr" or "DTS Neu:X." The only time the display read "DTSHD + Neural:X" or "DTHD + DSurr" was when MULTICHANNEL content was playing...but with Christmas Vacation, with a 2.0 DTS Master Audio track, the 2800 was showing "DTSHD + Neu:X" when it should have been showing just "DTS Neural:X."

Consequently, this also happened with another disc I own, the Scream Factory Blu-ray of Exorcist III -- on that disc, the 2.0 DTS-HD Master Audio track shows as "DTSHD + Neural:X" when it should read "DTS Neural:X."

Can you explain why this happens, or confirm if it's correct?

 

[Trebdp83]

If the discs are DTS-HDMA 96/24 discs, that could be the issue. They could also be mistakenly read as multichannel discs.

 

[Kaskade89052]

If the discs are DTS-HDMA 96/24 discs, that could be the issue. They could also be mistakenly read as multichannel discs.

Thanks, as always.

The obvious thought I had was, of course, similar to your second suggestion -- that somehow they're being mistakenly read as multichannel signals. But why would some discs do this while others do not? Also, what would the sampling frequency have to do with how the tracks are being displayed on the front (in terms of the upmixer being shown by itself versus it being connected to the decoder)?