Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[Mike Up]

"AUTO" is on a rotational scroll when pushing the yellow PURE button on the remote. It scrolls through Direct, Pure Direct, and Auto. It's not the best way to do this for sure, but it is what it is. "AUTO" will keep selecting the "Default" sound mode shown in the chart on page 262 of the AVR-X2800H owners manual.

To get the receiver off of "AUTO" mode, you need to select either Pure Direct or Direct. You are NOT Leaving this sound mode on. After selecting Direct or Pure Direct to get the receiver out of AUTO, select sound mode DTS-HD for a DTS-HD 5.1 soundtrack. This will be remembered every time you watch a DTS-HD 5.1soundtrack. Select Neural:X instead if you are listening to a DTS HD 2.0 for 5.1 speaker surround sound. This will be remembered every time for a DTS-HD 2.0 soundtrack.

As far as the display. it Is very clear with it's abbreviations to show what sound mode is active. It can't fit the entire word so abbreviations are needed. It also shows the HDMI input at the same time which is just as important.

I talked to Denon out of curiosity on this subject and the way I took it from them is that these upmixer sound modes are always shown even if not needed, as customers like to see them in the sound mode list to avoid confusion. This is NOT a bug. They are only active when they need to steer sound to additional speakers. With the case of Dolby, they are used for the Virtualizer. When they are selected with a 5.1 speakers system, they are doing very little but looking for the virtualizer option or additional speakers. They are essentially idle with a 5.1 speaker system without using the virtualizer or additional speakers. I would use DTS-HD or DD+, instead of the added Dolby Surround or Neural:X as I'm sure it's just adding another layer of digital noise and the such, while still leaving the base, fundamental sound signal output essentially the same.

I returned my Onkyo receivers for what I consider quirks. Mainly I couldn't get past that the TX-NR6050 and TX-NR6100 with a "7.1 speaker setup" using DD/DD+ with NO upmixer, switching the side surround outputs to the back surround speakers with a 5.1 signal input and output. Onkyo even states NOW in the new and correct updated manuals that with a 7.1 speaker setup, playing a 5.1 signal input, that the side surround channels will play out of the "Back" surround speakers, and the side surround speakers will be silent. IMO, improper steering logic and outright incorrect. Some have speculated it was due to Onkyo being cheap and not wanting to buy the proper licensing for correct channel steering. I don't understand why they would do this. It's very detrimental when listening to 5.1 Concert soundtracks where I want discrete sound without upmixers.

The other thing was their display, shown in the picture directly above this post. When I was not using an upmixer, the on-screen display would show 5.1 > 7.1 when it was still a 5.1 signal being output. It seems since the logic was incorrectly steering the side surround channels to the back surround speakers, it considered this 7.1. INCORRECT. So it displayed 7.1 whenever the back surround speakers where turned on. It was like 1 wrong, equaled 2 wrongs. Just poor design IMO.

Then Onkyo never had their owners manual correct for either receiver. Only after I argued with their support did they ever put up the correct on line manuals. The original manuals stated these receivers were only compatible with 24Gbps video, not 40Gbps. This stated the receivers were only compatible with 8K30p "UNCOMPRESSED" video or 8K60p "COMPRESSED". The correct manuals were finally put up that stated the receivers were compatible with 40Gbps video stating they were compatible with 8K60p "UNCOMPRESSED" video.

The TX-NR6100 sounded very good with Stereo signals however the TX-NR6050 did not as it has some compressed dynamics in the bass.

I returned the TX-NR6050 mainly for the sound quality but also the quirks. I returned the TX-NR6100 as I didn't feel comfortable owning it. It was designed with quirks, customer support was mainly clueless, and I didn't trust the receiver or support to continuing working correctly in the future. I really was concerned about Firmware upgrades. A firmware upgrade can break a device, or include additional features as Denon has added in the past. I didn't trust Onkyo support, their firmware upgrades, or their hardware reliability, so I returned it for another Denon that I have confidence in.

This is only my opinion and take, as I know others love their Onkyos over Denon and Yamaha.

So what ever floats your boat. As I said on the other forum, I believe you would be happier with another Onkyo despite their shortcomings IMO.

 

[Trebdp83]

Thank you for chiming in @Mike Up with information you provided in another forum post. If a straight decode of multichannel signals is remembered and used after the up mixing of two channel signals once out of Auto mode, that would do it for @John Lohmann and would solve at least one problem. I could not get my Onkyo to do as much when experimenting with it but then I often change sound modes when playing a given signal anyway except when playing Dolby Atmos, DSD or DTS:X signals.

The Onkyo surround channel reroute for Dolby 5.1 is silly and still present on the RZ70. The manuals still need a few corrections. The original 6050 manual described the video capabilities of the 7100 that included three 40Gbps HDMI input ports and three 24Gbps HDMI input ports. The 6050 actually has three 40Gbps HDMI input ports and three 18Gbps HDMI input ports. Only the RZ70 contains six 40Gbps HDMI input ports.

I have not had issues with firmware updates on my Onkyos, Yamaha or the last Denon I owned. I perform firmware updates for all of my devices wirelessly these days. The dangers of doing so have been exaggerated. I’ve not been impressed by customer support from ANYBODY lately.

Every manufacturer does things a bit differently than another and things change even within a particular line over time. Unfortunately, it seems the most loved features can go by the wayside when new features are added. Sometimes it seems features are lost for no good reason and new models aren't as attractive as the models they replace. It is what it is. I wouldn’t mind if Onkyo brought back the looks of the 929.

 

[John Lohmann]

I was absolutely assured by Denon -- as I am STILL in talks with their Tier 2 engineer via email -- that there is NO "additional noise" added by keeping the upmixers engaged with mutichannel content. It just doesn't happen. It's just a cosmetic thing -- I will continue calling it a "bug" because the processor should be smart enough to know when five speakers are connected and the upmixer isn't needed, and to shut it off on the display -- and I actually asked the engineer to pass this suggestion of changing it on to the developers. He said he would.

 

[John Lohmann]

Thank you for chiming in @Mike Up with information you provided in another forum post. If a straight decode of multichannel signals is remembered and used after the up mixing of two channel signals once out of Auto mode, that would do it for @John Lohmann and would solve at least one problem. I could not get my Onkyo to do as much when experimenting with it but then I often change sound modes when playing a given signal anyway except when playing Dolby Atmos, DSD or DTS:X signals.

The Onkyo surround channel reroute for Dolby 5.1 is silly and still present on the RZ70. The manuals still need a few corrections. The original 6050 manual described the video capabilities of the 7100 that included three 40Gbps HDMI input ports and three 24Gbps HDMI input ports. The 6050 actually has three 40Gbps HDMI input ports and three 18Gbps HDMI input ports. Only the RZ70 contains six 40Gbps HDMI input ports.

I have not had issues with firmware updates on my Onkyos, Yamaha or the last Denon I owned. I perform firmware updates for all of my devices wirelessly these days. The dangers of doing so have been exaggerated. I’ve not been impressed by customer support from ANYBODY lately.

Every manufacturer does things a bit differently than another and things change even within a particular line over time. Unfortunately, it seems the most loved features can go by the wayside when new features are added. Sometimes it seems features are lost for no good reason and new models aren't as attractive as the models they replace. It is what it is. I wouldn’t mind if Onkyo brought back the looks of the 929.

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I would LOVE for the displays to look like this, too -- what is absolutely mind boggling is that, especially on the RZ series, there is a TON of available screen room to show a two-line display with all the codec and input info. I simply don't understand why they don't do this.

I'll get back to everyone's posts as soon as I can.

 

[John Lohmann]

"AUTO" is on a rotational scroll when pushing the yellow PURE button on the remote. It scrolls through Direct, Pure Direct, and Auto. It's not the best way to do this for sure, but it is what it is. "AUTO" will keep selecting the "Default" sound mode shown in the chart on page 262 of the AVR-X2800H owners manual.

To get the receiver off of "AUTO" mode, you need to select either Pure Direct or Direct. You are NOT Leaving this sound mode on. After selecting Direct or Pure Direct to get the receiver out of AUTO, select sound mode DTS-HD for a DTS-HD 5.1 soundtrack. This will be remembered every time you watch a DTS-HD 5.1soundtrack. Select Neural:X instead if you are listening to a DTS HD 2.0 for 5.1 speaker surround sound. This will be remembered every time for a DTS-HD 2.0 soundtrack.

That is absolutely NOT how it was explained to me by the engineer, nor how I have found it to work using my own experiments. The upmixers, as I have said, are based on CODEC TYPE, not CHANNEL NUMBER, and they can't be applied as such; all the upmixers know is if a codec is Dolby or DTS, and it applies the last "algorithm" (that is, with or without an upmixer) to that codec the next time you play it.

You're suggesting there IS a way to keep a memory so that two-channel signals use DS or DTSN and multichannel sources are decoded as is (TrueHD, DTS-HD etc.)? I was told this was absolutely NOT possible.

As far as the display. it Is very clear with it's abbreviations to show what sound mode is active. It can't fit the entire word so abbreviations are needed. It also shows the HDMI input at the same time which is just as important.

I understand WHY they're there, based on the model numbers -- the lower-tiered Denons don't have the dual line config -- but Treb and I find it utterly annoying to look at. Making things worse is that when I glance at the display as a disc starts, I am sometimes confused as to whether I'm seeing "DTS HD" or "Dolby TrueHD" because the letters are totally smashed against each other.

So Dolby TrueHD signals read "DTHD + DSurr" and DTS Master Audio reads "DTSHD + Neural:X." That is AWFULLY confusing to make out from across a room at 12 feet. There's NO reason AVR manufacturers can't utilize a double-line scheme for every model in the lineup, regardless of price; what is so "special" or "premium" about being able to see a display that has the input name fully spelled out on top and the sound mode beneath it? This shouldn't be a matter of price or prestige -- leave those premiums for power output, channel support, etc.

I included my notes from the Denon/Marantz engineer on Home Theater Forum for you after he explained how everything works to me; he assured me that by doing what you suggest using DIRECT, it is merely adding an unnecessary step because in the end, these upmixers are programmed according to codec TYPE.

 

[John Lohmann]

I actually have three Onkyos. There is also a Yamaha that we will not discuss here. I have an Onkyo TX-NR777, TX-NR696 and TX-NR6050. The 777 turned itself ON this morning and displayed an available Firmware Update. So, I ran it, wirelessly. I fear no firmware update or wireless connection.

The TX-NR6050 is in the Main room and is used most of the time. For any signal using a straight decode, pressing the info button will display the incoming signal and input channels in the left side of the info box. The right side of the info box will display the selected sound mode and the output channels.

When using a straight decode of a DD 5.1 signal with a 5.1 speaker configuration, the input info will display Dolby Audio - DD 5.1 and Output will display Dolby Audio - DD 5.1. Use the Dolby Surround up mixer and the Output displays Dolby Audio - Surr.
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Thanks....but I meant on the front panel of the AVR itself. Can you take any pics of what this looks like depending on what you're listening to?

 

[Trebdp83]

So, while playing a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 disc with a straight decode, pressing the info button will bring up the current sound mode…

Pressing the info button a second time will bring up the current input signal…

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Haha! Don’t know what you guys are crying about! This is what I got.

 

[isolar8001]

Haha! Don’t know what you guys are crying about! This is what I got.

That should replace the age-old eye charts at the Optometrist !!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That should replace the age-old eye charts at the Optometrist !!

Right?!?! Many would fail for sure lol. I don’t mind using the gui, and actually prefer the look of the front panel overall.

 

[John Lohmann]

So, while playing a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 disc with a straight decode, pressing the info button will bring up the current sound mode…
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Pressing the info button a second time will bring up the current input signal…
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Thanks a lot -- appreciate it.

Is this just a new Dolby thing now, to not spell out "TrueHD" like on old AVR models? My 605 used to show the Dolby symbol and then the words "TrueHD" next to it, but the Denon 2800 only shows "DTHD" (like in the pics of your Onk above) when the upmixer is involved (without the Dolby symbol) or just like the way yours is when it's a straight TrueHD decode. It's the weirdest thing.

Do any AVRs use the "TrueHD" moniker anymore?

What happens when you play something with Master Audio -- does it say "DTS-HD" only?

Do you have a 7100? I forgot which model you had....

 

[John Lohmann]

Haha! Don’t know what you guys are crying about! This is what I got.

Yeah....that's definitely not happening in our room at our viewing distance, and it's one of the reasons I steered far away from Marantz for a newer AVR (most of them were out of budget for us anyway).

They gotta do something about that horrid porthole....

 

[John Lohmann]

Here's another strange one, Treb....

You know how we have been discussing the way certain signals show up on the front of the Denon depending on what's being decoded....like when playing multichannel content with a Dolby track it will read "DD + DSurr" or "DTHD + DSurr" and when playing multichannel content with a DTS track it will read "DTS + Neural:X" or "DTSHD + Neural:X," and when playing 2.0 signals JUST the name of the upmixer will appear ("Dolby Surr" or "DTS Neural:X")?

Well, last night I threw in a Blu-ray copy of Exorcist III (Scream Factory Collector's Edition) and attempted to play its alternate DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 mix as a test (the 5.1 track on this disc doesn't sound right, especially compared to Warner Bros.' original DVD version that contained a remixed Dolby Digital 5.1 track; it's almost as if Scream Factory collapsed everything into the center when they prepared the Master Audio 5.1 mix for the BD). I clearly selected the proper track from the setup menu, but the Denon refused to show "DTS Neural:X" on the display, instead showing "DTSHD + Neural:X" as if a 5.1 track was playing.

In other words, because I was listening to a TWO CHANNEL DTS-HD MA track, the Denon SHOULD have shown "DTS Neural:X" on the display ONLY, but it was showing "DTSHD + Neural," which is what lights up when MULTICHANNEL signals are being processed. I can confirm that I DEFINITELY chose the 2.0 track from the menu -- several times to test -- and even checked with the output of the disc player, which said it was sending the DTS-HD MA 2.0.

What made this even weirder is that I do recall, when using my previous Onkyo, the 2.0 mix forcing the AVR into Stereo mode (because it couldn't properly process DTS-HD MA 2.0 signals), so this would indicate that the Onkyo DID understand a two-channel signal was coming in.

Is this some kind of flagging glitch on the disc itself?

Here's what the back of the Blu-ray case looks like; it doesn't mention the DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 track (just the 5.1), but it is available through the menu:

 

[Trebdp83]

There is no glitch. It is a lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 track, not just a two channel analog signal or digital PCM 2.0 signal. The Denon will always display the Dolby or DTS signal along with the selected up mixer. Here, it is a DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 signal with DTS Neural:X as the selected sound mode. So, it will display as DTS-HD + Neural:X. My Onkyo displays the signal as DTS-HDMSTR 2.0.

Now, let me edit myself as I’m mistaken about Dolby and DTS 2.0 signals compared to multichannel signals. It shouldn’t display “DTS-HD + Neural:X” for DTS-HD MA 2.0 signals according to Denon. But, because the disc also features a DTS-HD MA multichannel track, it might be picking up on it. If you have a disc with a Dolby multichannel track and also a DTS-HD MA 2.0 track, you might see what comes up when selecting the DTS track.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah....that's definitely not happening in our room at our viewing distance, and it's one of the reasons I steered far away from Marantz for a newer AVR (most of them were out of budget for us anyway).

They gotta do something about that horrid porthole....

For me, while the porthole is almost completely useless. I like the look of the front of the unit overall. Fairly clean and I like the symmetrical design. I’m also just fine with pushing the display button to make sure everything is where I want.
The Onkyo that it replaced, an 808, was a great AVR, and one of the last ones that was thx ultra certified(iirc) and had gobs of power. It wouldn’t do Atmos, so it had to go.

 

[John Lohmann]

There is no glitch. It is a lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 track, not just a two channel analog signal or digital PCM 2.0 signal. The Denon will always display the Dolby or DTS signal along with the selected up mixer. Here, it is a DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 signal with DTS Neural:X as the selected sound mode. So, it will display as DTS-HD + Neural:X. My Onkyo displays the signal as DTS-HDMSTR 2.0.

Now, let me edit myself as I’m mistaken about Dolby and DTS 2.0 signals compared to multichannel signals. It shouldn’t display “DTS-HD + Neural:X” for DTS-HD MA 2.0 signals according to Denon. But, because the disc also features a DTS-HD MA multichannel track, it might be picking up on it. If you have a disc with a Dolby multichannel track and also a DTS-HD MA 2.0 track, you might see what comes up when selecting the DTS track.
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Hold on a minute -- do you actually have a copy of this disc at home that you were able to pull up the info?

Secondly, I think there is something of a miscommunication with regard to what I was initially saying -- what I meant was, whenever I play discs with 2.0 audio mixes, whether mono or stereo, the Denon has been JUST showing the UPMIXER that engages....so Dolby 2.0 tracks read "Dolby Surround" on the display and DTS 2.0 tracks read "DTS Neural:X," ONLY.

When MULTICHANNEL soundtracks play, the Denon always displays the core track -- "DD," "DTHD," "DTS," "DTSHD," etc. -- WITH the upmixer designation next to it ("DD + D Surr," "DTSHD + Neural:X," etc.). That's the way it's been working since I installed it.

However, when I played the Exorcist III disc and selected the DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 track, the Denon showed "DTSHD + Neural:X," NOT just "DTS Neural:X," which it SHOULD have, because it's only a two-channel mix.

Do you see what I'm saying?

 

[John Lohmann]

For me, while the porthole is almost completely useless. I like the look of the front of the unit overall. Fairly clean and I like the symmetrical design. I’m also just fine with pushing the display button to make sure everything is where I want.
The Onkyo that it replaced, an 808, was a great AVR, and one of the last ones that was thx ultra certified(iirc) and had gobs of power. It wouldn’t do Atmos, so it had to go.

I prefer just glancing at the AVR's front display to quickly ensure the correct soundtrack is being processed; I don't like fumbling for remotes in the dark, and that's the environment we're always in, on a nightly basis, when watching films. There's no way the Marantz would work for me under these conditions.

I prefer the look of the Marantz AVRs and processors from the generation of the one you own, but don't care for the new ones, at all -- the flat, boring, un-shiny control and volume knobs....the weird aesthetic of the chassis itself...the faceplate design. I just don't care for it, but I know others find it very classy.

I used to like Marantz products, don't get me wrong....their CD players, in particular. I am even still using one in my two-channel rig, a CC4001 five-disc changer.

We aren't doing Atmos now or in the near future, so that wasn't a consideration for me; in fact, it's why I am considering selling this Denon and trying to get our old Onk fixed.

 

[Trebdp83]

Right. I had to correct myself because according to the manual, two channel signals should not display the incoming signal AND the sound mode like multichannel signals do. Why it is doing it with that disc I do not know. I do not own that disc and just put on another disc with a DTS HD MA 2.0 track. Onkyo models do not display the input signal AND the selected sound mode together at all. Press the info button and only the sound mode is displayed on the front panel. Press it again and the input signal is displayed.

You could see if there is an SR7015 out in the wild at a good price and open the panel when watching movies to see the info.

 

[John Lohmann]

Right. I had to correct myself because according to the manual, two channel signals should not display the incoming signal AND the sound mode like multichannel signals do.

Where does it say this in the manual? I didn't see it.

Why it is doing it with that disc I do not know. I do not own that disc and just put on another disc with a DTS HD MA 2.0 track. Onkyo models do not display the input signal AND the selected sound mode together at all. Press the info button and only the sound mode is displayed on the front panel. Press it again and the input signal is displayed.

I realized, after I did some research, that the Onkyos do not show any sound mode info and input name, etc. together, at all, even when scrolling through the info menu (when the remote's button is pressed). That really is a shame; they need to fix this in future models, and have it show like the Marantz does in the example you provided below.

What's really frustrating is that models like the RZs have a big display screen, so why can't they utilize that to show two rows of info for INPUT name and SOUND MODE?

You could see if there is an SR7015 out in the wild at a good price and open the panel when watching movies to see the info.
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Yeah, I considered a Marantz with the drop-down panel, but I really don't like their AVRs for whatever reason; I mean, as I mentioned to Bill above, I can deal with the generation of AVRs like this 7015 above with its shiny control knobs and such, but I don't gravitate to them. However, if that's the only way to get a good readout from an AVR's display, it may come down to that.

With regard to the Dolby TrueHD question I had in a previous post: is this just the way Dolby is doing it now in terms of how this codec is displayed on an AVR? The Denon also reads "DTHD" on the front, and your Onkyo seemed to do the same with this signal, albeit with the Dolby symbol in front of it all. Are all AVRs showing Dolby TrueHD like this?

And with Master Audio, I was told that DTS changed the way this codec is shown on the front of receivers now, as well; according to this report, no AVR will show "DTS-HD MSTR" or "MA" like they used to, instead just showing "DTS-HD." I can confirm that the Denon 2800 only shows "DTS-HD" with these types of signals.

Your Onkyo, however, is definitely showing "DTS HDMSTR" on the front, similar to how my TX-SR605 showed it. Strange.

 

[Trebdp83]

I don’t know if all new receivers have gone the way of abbreviating Dolby signals. Check the sound mode chart in the manual on page 282 for the applicable modes for two channel signals.