Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[John Lohmann]

I recently purchased a new Denon AVR-X2800 to replace an old Onkyo 605 for a 5.1-channel setup (that includes two in-ceiling surrounds over the primary listening position), and because we haven't bought an AV amp in so long, we're having trouble getting used to the new tech. With the old Onkyo, I was able to assign various listening mode presets for each of the different codecs coming into the receiver -- so Dolby Digital could be assigned to "Dolby D" and two-channel content can be handled by "Pro Logic II Movie," et al -- and this made everything so simple because it was all automated.

With these new AVRs, there are no more listening mode presets and, instead, the "Dolby Surround" and "DTS Neural:X" upmixers are engaged based on a "last memorized setting" basis, and it's been truly annoying for us based on the fact that we have no overhead speakers for anything to "upmix" to. I totally get and understand how upmixers work in a full Atmos setup (5.1.2 and beyond) and how Dolby Surround has "replaced" Pro Logic II as a sort of "matrixing" system, but my underlying concern is how these systems are affecting 5.1 soundtracks from discs (our only sources when watching film content) played on a Panasonic DP-UB9000 UHD BD player on a standard 5.1 system.

Here's my dilemma, in a nutshell: because I want the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers to automatically engage for two-channel tracks we may be playing (whether stereo or mono) without having to press the green MOVIE button on the Denon's remote for different formats, I have to leave these upmixers ON for all content. So, when we watch various types of content on different discs, the front panel of the Denon reads as such:

Dolby Sources:

Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD: "DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby Stereo (as on old DVDs): "Dolby Surround"
Dolby Atmos: "DTHD + DSurr" (because we don't have overhead speakers, so the disc drops back to the core TrueHD track)

DTS Sources:

DTS: "DTS + Neural:X"
DTS-HD Master Audio: "DTSHD + Neural:X"
DTS Master Audio 2.0: "DTS Neural:X"
DTS:X: "DTS:X"

Now, I understand that the "Speaker Virtualizer" feature as accessible in the Denon's primary setup menu controls whether or not the AVR reads "Dolby Atmos" on the display when running such sources, as when it's ON it tells the AVR that "virtual speakers" are to be used, creating a phantom overhead effect. And, indeed, when I keep this ON and watch discs with Atmos tracks, the Denon does read "Dolby Atmos" (even WITH my 5.1 system); when I turn it OFF, the AVR reads "DTHD" because it drops back to the TrueHD core. I get that.

My concern has more to do with what the upmixers are doing when I play discs with 5.1 tracks on this 5.1 system -- from what I have read, some say they definitely affect 5.1 tracks in some way, while others claim the systems do nothing because there are no overhead speakers to "upmix" to. As I said, I need to keep the upmixers engaged all the time so that 2.0 signals are automatically detected and steered to the proper channels (mainly to the center), otherwise I'd have to play with that green MOVIE sound mode button constantly. Can anyone confirm if these upmixing systems actually affect 5.1 soundtracks in any way when engaged if using a 5.1 system?

Additionally, with regard to the aforementioned Speaker Virtualizer feature, if this is kept ON and the Dolby Surround upmixer is used, does this definitely change the sound of 5.1 tracks because the AVR is being told to use a virtual speaker effect? I suspect it definitely affects Atmos tracks on the 5.1 setup, but what about non-Atmos content on, say, regular Blu-rays? Would Dolby TrueHD signals be affected by leaving both the Virtualizer on and the Dolby Surround upmixer engaged at the same time? If so, I don't want to use it, as we're running in-ceiling surrounds, and I would think this would get things too "confused" overhead.

Any thoughts?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Basically try them and see what you think.

These days the only time I use Dolby Surround (or NeuralX) is for video sources that are only in 2CH. For example, some British video contents from a few years ago are only available in 2CH.

Otherwise, I try not to use any kind of DSP.

 

[John Lohmann]

Basically try them and see what you think.

These days the only time I use Dolby Surround (or NeuralX) is for video sources that are only in 2CH. For example, some British video contents from a few years ago are only available in 2CH.

Otherwise, I try not to use any kind of DSP.

Thanks for the reply.

It's not really a matter of "try and use the one you prefer" in this situation, as I only have five speakers (and a sub), and nothing is getting "upmixed" to any height channels. I have tried both ways -- with upmixers turned on and off while playing a 5.1 track -- and I don't know if I'm hearing a difference (my wife can't tell either). I just want to know if the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X systems are actually AFFECTING or CHANGING the core 5.1 tracks on our system somehow, and can't get a definitive answer from either Dolby or DTS (I tried emailing them).

Also -- I agree about using DSP modes. But that's not what the upmixers are actually used for; in my case (and it seems in yours), I want them to matrix two-channel signals so mono and stereo soundtracks on DVDs and Blu-rays are steered to the right speakers (mainly the center). This is the way Pro Logic II used to work in older AVRs (different from those proprietary DSP modes like "Jazz," "Club," "Toilet," whatever).

But in order for my new AVR to AUTOMATICALLY engage an upmixer to matrix two-channel tracks properly, I need to keep the Neural:X and Dolby Surround systems on all the time, even for 5.1 tracks -- and I want to know if this is changing those tracks in any way being that they're not being "upmixed" to additional speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks for the reply.

It's not really a matter of "try and use the one you prefer" in this situation, as I only have five speakers (and a sub), and nothing is getting "upmixed" to any height channels. I have tried both ways -- with upmixers turned on and off while playing a 5.1 track -- and I don't know if I'm hearing a difference (my wife can't tell either). I just want to know if the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X systems are actually AFFECTING or CHANGING the core 5.1 tracks on our system somehow, and can't get a definitive answer from either Dolby or DTS (I tried emailing them).

Also -- I agree about using DSP modes. But that's not what the upmixers are actually used for; in my case (and it seems in yours), I want them to matrix two-channel signals so mono and stereo soundtracks on DVDs and Blu-rays are steered to the right speakers (mainly the center). This is the way Pro Logic II used to work in older AVRs (different from those proprietary DSP modes like "Jazz," "Club," "Toilet," whatever).

But in order for my new AVR to AUTOMATICALLY engage an upmixer to matrix two-channel tracks properly, I need to keep the Neural:X and Dolby Surround systems on all the time, even for 5.1 tracks -- and I want to know if this is changing those tracks in any way being that they're not being "upmixed" to additional speakers.

If you don’t have any in-ceiling speakers, then using the upmixers won’t add any sound overhead. The upmixers won’t do anything if the source is already 5.1CH.

But they will turn a 2CH movie into a 5.1 movie so that dialogue will come from the CENTER speaker, not the front L/R speakers, and you can get some surround sounds to the surround speakers.

So my point is that the upmixers are really just good for converting 2CH into 5.1, not to ATMOS.

If you have in-ceiling speakers, the upmixers could turn a 5.1CH to 5.1.2-ATMOS-like sound.

 

[John Lohmann]

If you don’t have any in-ceiling speakers, then using the upmixers won’t add any sound overhead. The upmixers won’t do anything if the source is already 5.1CH.

But they will turn a 2CH movie into a 5.1 movie so that dialogue will come from the CENTER speaker, not the front L/R speakers, and you can get some surround sounds to the surround speakers.

So my point is that the upmixers are really just good for converting 2CH into 5.1, not to ATMOS.

If you have in-ceiling speakers, the upmixers could turn a 5.1CH to 5.1.2-ATMOS-like sound.

Thank you -- this is what I wanted to know, pretty much.

That is precisely why I was leaving the upmixers engaged, so they would kick on for two-channel content only -- as you said, steering dialogue into the center, et al. My concern was if they were affecting/changing the 5.1 mix on discs in any way with our 5.1 system.

Here's another question: from what I understand, the Speaker Virtualizer feature in the receiver setup menu is supposed to add "faux Atmos effects" from 5.1 setups, and I leave this turned off right now, but does this affect non-Atmos tracks when the Dolby Surround upmixer is engaged at the same time? In other words, if I keep the virtualizer feature turned on and then watch a disc with a 5.1 non-Atmos track -- while leaving the Dolby Surround upmixer on, as well -- will that track be "altered" because the virtualizer is on? I can't really get a straight answer on this, either...

I know this virtualizer is supposed to work with Atmos mixes, to provide 5.1 setups with some "overhead effects" without height channels, but does it affect non-Atmos stuff when using the Dolby Surround upmixer? When I keep the virtualizer ON, the front of the AVR reads "Dolby Atmos," as it's "tricking" the AVR into thinking there are overheads (or just to create fake overhead effects), but when I turn it OFF, the AVR reads "DTHD" because it's getting the core TrueHD track. This all makes sense....but because I am running a 5.1 system with in-ceiling surrounds, does it make sense to use the virtualizer at all? You really should have five BED LEVEL speakers for this to work, no?

Thanks again for your ongoing assistance.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

but because I am running a 5.1 system with in-ceiling surrounds, does it make sense to use the virtualizer at all?

That’s a tough question.

If you had a 5.1 system with ear-level bed-surrounds (not in-ceiling speakers for the 2 surrounds), I would say the virtualization will do nothing to make the sound come from the ceiling.

I don’t even think Height speakers are any good for putting Atmos sounds overhead in an actual Atmos setup.

But putting bed-surround speakers in-ceiling is something I have no idea. All surround sounds will come overhead whether they are suppose to or not. But I will still say NO- virtual sound is 100% DSP gimmick.

 

[John Lohmann]

That’s a tough question.

If you had a 5.1 system with ear-level bed-surrounds (not in-ceiling speakers for the 2 surrounds), I would say the virtualization will do nothing to make the sound come from the ceiling.

But that's what virtual speaker features are specifically supposed to do...make the bed-level speakers feel as if there's movement above you, sans actual height channels.

I don’t even think Height speakers are any good for putting Atmos sounds overhead in an actual Atmos setup.

Wait -- you're saying physical overhead speakers don't work in a genuine Atmos setup? Isn't that what they're designed to do?

But putting bed-surround speakers in-ceiling is something I have no idea. All surround sounds will come overhead whether they are suppose to or not. But I will still say NO- virtual sound is 100% DSP gimmick.

Well, these speakers were already in the ceiling when we purchased the house, so we took advantage of them (they're actually good SpeakerCrafts, so someone took the time to upgrade these). That's why I was asking, because as it stands, everything basically comes from above us anyway (with regard to surround information; our front three channels are traditional with Polk RTi12 mains and a CSi30 center).

I guess I'll just leave the virtualizer off, from everything I am hearing....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wait -- you're saying physical overhead speakers don't work in a genuine Atmos setup?

No, I mean “Height” speakers which are installed on the WALLS (used as ATMOS) don’t sound as good as In-Ceiling ATMOS speakers.

The Height speakers are above ear level, but are not installed on/in the ceiling.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

@Trebdp83 can likely comment on the virtualizer. Iirc, he’s said it can be pretty effective sans actual height/top speakers.
He can also likely comment on the other stuff too lol.

 

[Trebdp83]

If in ceiling speakers are being used as surround speakers, turn the Speaker Virtualizer and up mixers OFF. They should only be used when the surround speakers are placed accordingly for the new object based up mixers.

With the Speaker Virtualizer turned ON and Dolby Surround or DTS Virtual:X, not Neural:X, selected for 5.1 tracks, sound will be affected and not in the way that it should be when using in ceiling speakers as surround speakers. Those should be used as height speakers in a 5.1.2 system with surround speakers at ear level. The new up mixers do not work like Pro Logic and its variants.

Some run a 3.1.2 setup when in ceiling speakers are present and an AVP/AVR does what it can with the configuration for object placement. But, they cannot do anything good for speakers such as in ceiling speakers being assigned as surround speakers.

Denon models lock out DTS Virtual:X when DD, DD+ and DTHD signals are played. DTS Neural:X and DTS Virtual:X are always locked out when Dolby Atmos metadata is processed as Dolby does not allow cross up mixing of Atmos, though the old DTS Neo Cinema mode can be selected in some other brand receivers when playing Atmos signals.

I would add ear level surround speakers for a 7.1.2 configuration here. If that is not possible, turn the Speaker Virtualizer OFF and leave it in Dolby Surround for Dolby signals and DTS Neural:X for DTS signals. Two channel signals will be up mixed for the 5.1 channels and 5.1 signals will be unaffected.

Onkyo models no longer have the Presets for signals like older models had and also just remember last sound mode for signals, though there is a DTS Auto Surround setting for DTS signals that can be turned ON for up mixing of DTS signals or OFF for a straight decode of them. Onkyos do not lock out DTS Virtual:X when using the Speaker Virtualizer with Dolby signals save for Atmos.

I currently run a 5.1 speaker configuration using an Onkyo but also ran it with a newer Denon and Yamaha for a bit. I use the Speaker Virtualizer with Dolby Surround and DTS Virtual:X for virtual height effects from 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 tracks. With the Speaker Virtualizer ON using a 5.1 speaker configuration, the virtual height speakers allow for Dolby Atmos and DTS:X metadata processing and those signals benefit greatly from it but only if speakers are placed accordingly.

 

[John Lohmann]

No, I mean “Height” speakers which are installed on the WALLS (used as ATMOS) don’t sound as good as In-Ceiling ATMOS speakers.

The Height speakers are above ear level, but are not installed on/in the ceiling.

Oh, okay -- didn't realize you were referring to on-wall speakers used as Atmos channels.

 

[John Lohmann]

Appreciate the post, Treb.

Let me try to clarify something, because unless I am reading it wrong, you seem to be suggesting two different things here:

If in ceiling speakers are being used as surround speakers, turn the Speaker Virtualizer and up mixers OFF. They should only be used when the surround speakers are placed accordingly for the new object based up mixers.

Here, you suggest that if in-ceiling speakers are being used as surrounds -- as they are in my scenario -- the virtualizer AND upmixers shouldn't be used. But then you say:

I would add ear level surround speakers for a 7.1.2 configuration here. If that is not possible, turn the Speaker Virtualizer OFF and leave it in Dolby Surround for Dolby signals and DTS Neural:X for DTS signals. Two channel signals will be up mixed for the 5.1 channels and 5.1 signals will be unaffected.

Now, I totally understand what you're saying regarding re-purposing my surrounds as overheads and adding ear-level surrounds, but that's not going to happen in this room -- however, beyond this, you confirm what I have been agonizing over since setting this AVR up, that leaving the upmixers ON while leaving the virtualizer OFF will in fact not affect 5.1 signals (and two-channel sources will be automatically matrixed).

But in your first statement, you mention turning the upmixers OFF in my scenario -- do I have this mixed up? If you could clarify, I would appreciate it greatly.

I will get to your other comments in kind at the earliest convenience. Thanks again.

 

[Trebdp83]

Apologies, I did seem to say two different things there. I meant the combination of the Speaker Virtualizer and up mixers should not be used here.

With the Speaker Virtualizer ON, the receiver will attempt to place “objects” in the room as best it can using the up mixers or a straight decode of Atmos or DTS:X metadata using virtual height speakers.

AVP/AVR models equipped with new decoders and up mixers need speakers placed accordingly for the “object” placement to work properly. If not, “objects” will seem to be everywhere but where they should be.

I mistakenly mentioned a 7.1.2 configuration in my previous post about this particular setup and have changed it to 5.1.2 as the X2800H can process and power just seven channels.

So, with five channels including two speakers in the ceiling, there are two options. The receiver can be configured for 5.1 with ceiling speakers acting as surround speakers or configured for 3.1.2 to make use of the ceiling speakers as the Height speakers.

To use the ceiling speakers as Height Speakers in a 3.1.2 setup, configure the amps for 7.1. In the “Speaker Layout” settings, select “Top Middle” for the Height speakers. This will automatically set Surround Back speakers to “No.” Manually set Surround Speakers to “No.”

Now, if seating is at the rear of the room with ceiling speakers right above the seating position, scratch 3.1.2 and stick with 5.1 with Speaker Virtualizer OFF. Denon does not allow for Top Rear Height Speakers in a configuration unless Top Front are also in the mix in models that support both of them.

 

[John Lohmann]

Apologies, I did seem to say two different things there. I meant the combination of the Speaker Virtualizer and up mixers should not be used here.

With the Speaker Virtualizer ON, the receiver will attempt to place “objects” in the room as best it can using the up mixers or a straight decode of Atmos or DTS:X metadata using virtual height speakers.

AVP/AVR models equipped with new decoders and up mixers need speakers placed accordingly for the “object” placement to work properly. If not, “objects” will seem to be everywhere but where they should be.

I mistakenly mentioned a 7.1.2 configuration in my previous post about this particular setup and have changed it to 5.1.2 as the X2800H can process and power just seven channels.

So, with five channels including two speakers in the ceiling, there are two options. The receiver can be configured for 5.1 with ceiling speakers acting as surround speakers or configured for 3.1.2 to make use of the ceiling speakers as the Height speakers.

To use the ceiling speakers as Height Speakers in a 3.1.2 setup, configure the amps for 7.1. In the “Speaker Layout” settings, select “Top Middle” for the Height speakers. This will automatically set Surround Back speakers to “No.” Manually set Surround Speakers to “No.”

Now, if seating is at the rear of the room with ceiling speakers right above the seating position, scratch 3.1.2 and stick with 5.1 with Speaker Virtualizer OFF. Denon does not allow for Top Rear Height Speakers in a configuration unless Top Front are also in the mix in models that support both of them.

Thanks; appreciate the feedback and reply.

However, I still think we're on two different pages -- my concern isn't what to do with my current speakers or how to go about setting up an Atmos system. The issue was what the virtualizer feature was doing in conjunction with the Dolby Surround upmixer, and whether or not these upmixers affect 5.1 content being played on a 5.1 system when they're on.

Because I want the upmixers to auto-engage for two-channel mono and stereo tracks on certain discs (without me needing to press the green MOVIE mode button on the remote all the time), I have to leave the upmixers engaged for EVERYTHING we watch. So, here is what is shown on the Denon's screen when we watch the following content:

Dolby Digital: "DD + DSurr"
Dolby TrueHD: DTHD + DSurr"
Dolby Stereo: "Dolby Surround"
Dolby Atmos: "DTHD + DSurr"

DTS: "DTS + Neural:X"
DTS-HD Master Audio: "DTSHD + Neural:X"
DTS Master Audio 2-Channel: "DTS Neural:X"
DTS:X: "DTS:X"

Now, with the upmixers being ON, as seen above, do they change or alter the base 5.1 tracks we're listening to being that we have a 5.1 setup...or are they ignored?

 

[Trebdp83]

No, as I think I stated in an earlier post, the up mixers will not do anything to 5.1 signals unless the Speaker Virtualizer is ON. Leave it OFF when using ceiling speakers as the Surround channel speakers. If ON, the receiver will try to simulate height sounds and ”object” placement using all of the speakers in the setup when engaging the up mixers. But, because the speakers used for the Surround channels are in the ceiling, this will not work properly.

 

[John Lohmann]

No, as I think I stated in an earlier post, the up mixers will not do anything to 5.1 signals unless the Speaker Virtualizer is ON. Leave it OFF when using ceiling speakers as the Surround channel speakers. If ON, the receiver will try to simulate height sounds and ”object” placement using all of the speakers in the setup when engaging the up mixers. But, because the speakers used for the Surround channels are in the ceiling, this will not work properly.

Thank you very much -- I appreciate the confirmation.

Ironically, someone on another forum is telling me THIS now, and I don't know what to believe:

After doing a bit of research on how the Denon applies upmixing to DD content it DOES appear that they do in fact alter the signal by applying the upmixing that is selected. The only way around this would be to bring the OSD up or look at your front panel on your AVR to see what processing is selected and then change it to auto decode the source material if you don't want any processing. Sorry for the confusion I may have caused. I would make a few custom presets. 1 for watching 2 channel movie content in surround sound using the processing of your choice, another one for 2 channel music and one for watching dolby digital content with no processing, and of course you could make more if you like. You would then be able to very quickly switch between the presets you create.

If I have to switch between presets made via the "Quick Select" buttons on the remote, I don't want to deal with this AVR then -- it would be the same thing as having to press the MOVIE button when I want to activate the upmixers for two-channel content EACH TIME.

 

[John Lohmann]

Treb,

There were a couple of other things I wanted to pick your brain about, if I could; if you have any insight, it would be greatly appreciated because no one seems to have any elsewhere.

First -- do you know why "DTS:X" shows on the front display of the AVR when we watch UHD Blu-rays with this format, given that we only have five speakers? Because we don't have overhead channels, and I have programmed the AVR to recognize that, why would "DTS:X" come up on the front display...wouldn't this be like Dolby Atmos in that because we don't have the overhead channels, the receiver doesn't show "Atmos" on the display?

From what I have discovered, the Speaker Virtualizer has to be ON with a 5.1 setup in order for the AVR to read "Dolby Atmos" on the front -- but with DTS:X, it doesn't seem to matter what's on or what's off....it always shows "DTS:X" on the Denon's display, and no one can explain why. I saw something on Crutchfield's website that talked about this, but I didn't really understand it; they mentioned something about DTS:X not being like Atmos because it can actually be "processed" with 5.1 setups (whereas Atmos needs the overhead channels for the extra info)...but because these are both immersive formats, why would DTS:X work differently?

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Also -- this Denon is behaving weirdly when discs we watch on our Panasonic UB9000 BD player are stopped, and I wanted to know if you had any idea why...

When watching DVDs with lossy legacy tracks -- like Dolby Digital and DTS -- and then I stop playback on the Panasonic's remote, the Denon's display will continue to read "DD + DSurr" or "DTS + Neural:X," or whatever the case may be. But when we watch Blu-rays and 4K Blu-rays with lossless high resolution tracks and then stop playback, the Denon will drop the "+upmixer" designation and just show the original core signal (DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, etc.).

It's the weirdest thing; so when I stop a disc that had, say, a Dolby TrueHD mix, the Denon will go from "DTHD + DSurr" to "Dolby TrueHD" once the playback has finally ceased. Do you know why this happens?

Thanks; appreciate your ongoing help.

 

[Trebdp83]

Dolby Atmos and DTS:X differ a bit and DTS:X does not have the channel configuration number requirement for metadata processing that is present with Dolby Atmos. Dolby requires at least a 7.1 setup, a 5.1 setup with virtual height speakers via Speaker Virtualizer or just about any configuration using real height speakers to process metadata.

As for the Sound Mode selected and its display, things will be all over the place depending on the Speaker configuration, the input signal and the selected Sound Mode.

Many DTHD and DTS HD MA discs are 7.1 and the Dolby Atmos discs should display as DTHD 7.1 when metadata is not being processed based on an incompatible speaker configuration.

The X2800H should apply Dolby Surround by default to most Dolby signals. But, if you have changed sound modes with different signals, the last used for a particular signal will continue to be used when that signal is played again. You may have DTHD and DTS HD MA set for a straight decode and lossy DD and DTS set to use with their respective up mixers.

Denon includes a comprehensive chart for the X2800H concerning input signals and the Sound Modes that can be applied to them. There are restrictions concerning speaker configurations used, cross up mixing of signals and bit rates.

 

[John Lohmann]

Thanks brother....will get back to you with any additional questions. Appreciate the explanation about DTS:X.

 

[John Lohmann]

Hi Again Treb,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this topic; to be honest, this AVR has been driving me so bonkers with regard to how it works with a non-spatial setup, I am considering boxing it up and putting my old Onkyo back in, and just taking the financial loss on the Denon.

Okay, so just to review and button up: if I am using a 5.1 system (especially one like mine with the two surrounds in the ceiling above the listening position), I should leave Speaker Virtualizer OFF and I can be assured that 5.1 and 7.1 soundtracks will NOT be affected/altered in any way even though the upmixers engage automatically...right?

With Dolby signals, the front of the Denon reads "DD + DSurr" or "DTHD + DSurr" and with DTS signals it reads "DTS + Neural:X" or "DTSHD + Neural:X." We are SURE that the upmixers are NOT affecting the base incoming 5.1 tracks in my scenario, and the only signals being affected are 2.0 mono or stereo, correct?

I just wish there was a way for the Denon to NOT show the upmixer designations when they're NOT being used -- like when I am just running a 5.1 track, the front of the AVR just reads "Dolby D" or "DTS" or whatever it is, and then when I NEED the upmixer to engage with two-channel stuff, it shows the "+Upmixer" light.

From what I understand, this is a Denon "bug" that should have been corrected with a firmware update.

Dolby Atmos and DTS:X differ a bit and DTS:X does not have the channel configuration number requirement for metadata processing that is present with Dolby Atmos. Dolby requires at least a 7.1 setup, a 5.1 setup with virtual height speakers via Speaker Virtualizer or just about any configuration using real height speakers to process metadata.

Got it; yeah, a Tier 2 engineer from Denon/Marantz confirmed the DTS:X thing for me, as well, pretty much conveying what you say above. I guess I'll just have to "trust" that DTS:X says "DTS:X" on the front panel and isn't affecting the 5.1 system in any way.

As for the Sound Mode selected and its display, things will be all over the place depending on the Speaker configuration, the input signal and the selected Sound Mode.

Many DTHD and DTS HD MA discs are 7.1 and the Dolby Atmos discs should display as DTHD 7.1 when metadata is not being processed based on an incompatible speaker configuration.

Thanks; I think I have just given up on why the AVR drops the "+Upmixer" designation on the front when I stop playback of high definition discs. I don't understand the behavior, but I suppose it is what it is.

The X2800H should apply Dolby Surround by default to most Dolby signals. But, if you have changed sound modes with different signals, the last used for a particular signal will continue to be used when that signal is played again. You may have DTHD and DTS HD MA set for a straight decode and lossy DD and DTS set to use with their respective up mixers.

Yes -- I have come to understand the memory functionality of this amp, but I don't touch anything anymore; I have been leaving everything on the last AUTO default mode, so everything plays back with the "+Upmixer" turned on. I'm still a bit skeptical on this, even though you and others have assured me it's NOT messing with the 5.1 signal, but I am trying to live with it. I could SWEAR my old Onkyo that this Denon replaced was louder, fuller and punchier at the same volume levels using the exact same calibration values between them (leaving off EQ and room correction so it's an equal playing field) -- I feel like something is "clamping down" on the audio with this new AVR, but I can't figure it out. I have everything that could possibly be related to this turned off, from Eco Mode to Loudness Management, and yet the Denon seems softer and less aggressive in delivery compared to the Onkyo. I don't know if the upmixers are affecting this in any way, which is why I keep questioning it.

At any rate, I am now being told by someone on another forum that I should actually be using the DIRECT mode, as accessed under the yellow remote button, instead of AUTO decode, as this will definitely remember the sound modes better for my needs. According to him (I believe Mike was a member once here, as well), by switching immediately out of AUTO to DIRECT and then playing content, the Denon will remember what sound modes to apply to what content, even if it's of different channel configurations (which I didn't think occurred with Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X; I was told these systems are based on CODEC TYPE, not channel number). So, if I don't want to see "+Upmixer" on the display with 5.1 content, I don't have to, and if I DO want to use the upmixers for 2.0 content, I can.

Here's what he said:

To turn "AUTO" off, and use the last remembered sound mode, you must push the yellow pure mode button until it says Direct. This takes it out of Auto. "THEN" you must select the sound mode you want with the Movie Button. This is important as this will be the last sound mode remembered and it will then be used every time you want to listen to that 2.0 DTS-HD soundtrack or 5.1 DTS-HD Soundtrack

Now in the manual, there is a chart that shows "DEFAULT" sound mode used. The AUTO mode uses those "DEFAULT" sound mode that are on the page 262 of the Denon AVR-X2800H manual.

When you are out of "AUTO" mode by selecting "Direct" then selecting DTS Neural X for 2.0 Channel soundtracks or DTS-HD for 5.1 Channel soundtracks, you will 'always' go to the last remembered sound mode which will be DTS Neural: X for 2.0 soundtracks or DTS-HD for 5.1 Channel soundtracks.

Denon includes a comprehensive chart for the X2800H concerning input signals and the Sound Modes that can be applied to them. There are restrictions concerning speaker configurations used, cross up mixing of signals and bit rates.

What do you make of this? I'd appreciate any ongoing assistance/insight you could provide. Thank you!