Does anyone really care about the Center Channel?

[CraigV]

Resurrecting this thread to throw in my two cents worth – Reading through some of the posts, I saw a common theme – what makes for a good center channel speaker, and how should it be oriented. Unless I missed it, it appears no one mentioned the Kef line of speakers and their Uni-Q design. Placing the tweeter in the center of the woofer/mid time aligns the frequencies, which lends to a more solid soundstage & imaging. It also helps to reduce the “lobbing” effect common to a lot of speakers in a typical tweeter mounted above the woofer. This often lead to inconsistent frequency response off axis, and the sound appears to be “sucked out” as the listener shifts position, usually in the frequency at the crossover point.

As for the issue of a center channel, I have tried with & without (phantom) and find I prefer without. We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled. No matter how closely matched the 3 front speakers might be (at one point I had three identical speakers across the front) the sound emanating from the center sounds different, if not in tonality, in it’s place in space. To me, the voices never seemed to come from the center of the screen, and there was always a shifting of the location of the sound as the action panned across the screen. The center channel always drew attention to itself. Now I am using a pair of Kef iQ7’s for the front two, and the phantom center approach. The sound is consistent across the front, imaging is deep, wide & tall, and the sound is really great.


*Edit - just read the last post before mine mentioning the Kef's

 

[TLS Guy]

Resurrecting this thread to throw in my two cents worth – Reading through some of the posts, I saw a common theme – what makes for a good center channel speaker, and how should it be oriented. Unless I missed it, it appears no one mentioned the Kef line of speakers and their Uni-Q design. Placing the tweeter in the center of the woofer/mid time aligns the frequencies, which lends to a more solid soundstage & imaging. It also helps to reduce the “lobbing” effect common to a lot of speakers in a typical tweeter mounted above the woofer. This often lead to inconsistent frequency response off axis, and the sound appears to be “sucked out” as the listener shifts position, usually in the frequency at the crossover point.

As for the issue of a center channel, I have tried with & without (phantom) and find I prefer without. We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled. No matter how closely matched the 3 front speakers might be (at one point I had three identical speakers across the front) the sound emanating from the center sounds different, if not in tonality, in it’s place in space. To me, the voices never seemed to come from the center of the screen, and there was always a shifting of the location of the sound as the action panned across the screen. The center channel always drew attention to itself. Now I am using a pair of Kef iQ7’s for the front two, and the phantom center approach. The sound is consistent across the front, imaging is deep, wide & tall, and the sound is really great.


*Edit - just read the last post before mine mentioning the Kef's

You make very valid points. I think the center speaker is a huge problem, and I personally gave a lot of thought to it. However I think mine does help with dialog. It is of course essential for SACD. For years everyone said you have to hear the old Mercury Living Presence masters from the three channel tape. Robert Fine used three equally spaced omni microphones across the sound stage, each connected to a separate tape track. The results are spectacular, and we can hear his efforts on SACD.

I think the concept of center channel makes more sense with the then, and again now highly favored spaced omni phase difference technique, but not so much so with crossed microphone intensity techniques.

The other thing I like my center for is playing old mono recordings, with that speaker playing alone. I use a center with a coaxial driver by the way, as you can see if you click on my signature.

I think your point about a phantom center is well taken. Good speakers will lock a central image even if you are off center. I notice in a lot of members systems the speakers are either side of the screen, and far too close together. Frankly a center speaker makes no sense to me in those situations. The frequency aberrations induced by having three speakers so close together have to be significant.

 

[DD66000]

As for the issue of a center channel, I have tried with & without (phantom) and find I prefer without. We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled. No matter how closely matched the 3 front speakers might be (at one point I had three identical speakers across the front) the sound emanating from the center sounds different, if not in tonality, in it’s place in space. To me, the voices never seemed to come from the center of the screen, and there was always a shifting of the location of the sound as the action panned across the screen. The center channel always drew attention to itself. Now I am using a pair of Kef iQ7’s for the front two, and the phantom center approach. The sound is consistent across the front, imaging is deep, wide & tall, and the sound is really great.

If the main L/R speakers produce a good soundstage, then a phantom center is good, but only if you're sitting dead center.

If you have a center channel and don't like it, then its either a bad design, wrong placement, wrong orientation, or all three.

Using a well designed vertical 3-way (tmw) will produce a very good center channel and thus dialogue. The best layout would be to have the LCRs at the same elevation, in line with the screen. In my case, as I have a rptv, the center is just below the screen, but tilted back to compensate for being lower than the mains. Only occassionally do I detect the voices location to be lower than the screen, and then it seems to be frequency dependent.

 

[lsiberian]

I think this is being very nitpicky. I mean honestly my center speaker works just fine with my mains. And I don't think another main would do as good of a job. As long as you get a good speaker brand with excellent response and well designed crossovers. The center should work just fine.

Kef speakers are great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if I needed a new front sound stage, but there good centers run about 500 dollars even on clearance.

Honestly while the Center is Important I think the main and subs should always take precedence.

 

[CraigV]

I think this is being very nitpicky. I mean honestly my center speaker works just fine with my mains. And I don't think another main would do as good of a job. As long as you get a good speaker brand with excellent response and well designed crossovers. The center should work just fine.

Kef speakers are great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if I needed a new front sound stage, but there good centers run about 500 dollars even on clearance.
Honestly while the Center is Important I think the main and subs should always take precedence.

I got a brand new pair of iQ7’s for $600, but the matching center is $450! Yikes!

I read a great paper written by some engineers from Dolby labs as to the use of a center channel speaker while mixing. All I know is what I can perceive. Watching Iron Man, the scene when he makes a return to the village near where he was held captive & starts kicking butt, the part where he takes out the last bad guys and the young boy runs to the side of his father. I.M. walks from left to right, and the sound pans left to right. I tried setting up the center speaker in every way possible, but the sound always did a “roller coaster” effect, dipping up or down to the center speaker, depending on its orientation. The characteristic of the sound also changed, from being more spatially correct in the side channels to being almost too focused from the center speaker, which lends to it drawing attention to itself. Of course, experimenting with placement & toe in is essential, and makes big differences.

 

[DD66000]

I think this is being very nitpicky. I mean honestly my center speaker works just fine with my mains. And I don't think another main would do as good of a job. As long as you get a good speaker brand with excellent response and well designed crossovers. The center should work just fine.

Kef speakers are great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if I needed a new front sound stage, but there good centers run about 500 dollars even on clearance.

Honestly while the Center is Important I think the main and subs should always take precedence.

Who or what are you referring to in your first sentence?
And yes, there are some very good center speakers, but there are also alot of junk centers.
$500 for any speaker isn't too much. Hell, it cost me at least that much to build each of my LCRs.

 

[no. 5]

If you have a center channel and don't like it, then its either a bad design, wrong placement, wrong orientation, or all three.

Poor source mastering can be added to that too.

We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled.

I wouldn't put it so simply, there are a host of factors that come into play when it comes to preference with monophonic sound reproduction.

 

[DD66000]

Poor source mastering can be added to that too.

One other thing is the digital software. If I'm watching a movie, using DD, and I think the dialogue sucks, I change to HK's Logic 7 and like magic the dialogue is as it should be.

 

[lsiberian]

Who or what are you referring to in your first sentence?
And yes, there are some very good center speakers, but there are also alot of junk centers.
$500 for any speaker isn't too much. Hell, it cost me at least that much to build each of my LCRs.

I see people hanging towers upside down on their tv's I mean come on. That's insane. Lol

500 is too much for my budget right now.

A matching Center will work fine and even better in some cases. Putting speakers behind a fixed frame screen which I consider optimal in a Home Theater setup doesn't seem reasonable either.

Of course as always people should audition until they find the best.

 

[jostenmeat]

I see people hanging towers upside down on their tv's I mean come on. That's insane. Lol

And on the other hand, I've seen three horizontal MTMs as the front stage. Doesn't look insane perhaps, but how could you do any worse?

 

[CraigV]

If the main L/R speakers produce a good soundstage, then a phantom center is good, but only if you're sitting dead center.

True enough, but after polling my wife & kids (12 & 9) they like the better picture quality the Blu-Ray player & media afford, but sound isn’t as important. They do like the full range sound, but would be OK with the TV speakers as well, so claiming the center sweet spot isn’t an issue for me. With the Kef’s, the effect of being off center is not as dramatic as with more conventional speakers, so it’s all good.

 

[DD66000]

And on the other hand, I've seen three horizontal MTMs as the front stage. Doesn't look insane perhaps, but how could you do any worse?

It would depend if they were true horizontal mtm (that would be bad) or if the tweeters midranges were vertically stacked, with the mid-bass to the sides.

 

[lsiberian]

I got a brand new pair of iQ7’s for $600, but the matching center is $450! Yikes!

I read a great paper written by some engineers from Dolby labs as to the use of a center channel speaker while mixing. All I know is what I can perceive. Watching Iron Man, the scene when he makes a return to the village near where he was held captive & starts kicking butt, the part where he takes out the last bad guys and the young boy runs to the side of his father. I.M. walks from left to right, and the sound pans left to right. I tried setting up the center speaker in every way possible, but the sound always did a “roller coaster” effect, dipping up or down to the center speaker, depending on its orientation. The characteristic of the sound also changed, from being more spatially correct in the side channels to being almost too focused from the center speaker, which lends to it drawing attention to itself. Of course, experimenting with placement & toe in is essential, and makes big differences.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFIQ6CBLKA/KEF/iQ6C-3-Way-Center-Channel-Speaker-in-Black-NEW/1.html
But that's a very nice center If I had the funds It would be my center an the 7s would be my LR channel.


http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFIQ2CBLKA/KEF/iQ2C-2-Way-Center-Channel-Speaker-in-Black-NEW/1.html
This is a cheaper option for a center. Lacks the bass drivers, but would probably be a decent match.


Ok I lie I would probably finish out the beta series with two 50's instead and maybe some of those funny looking dipoles lol.

I just love the highs they get. I've considered both routes and I have a tough choice ahead of me when I do make changes. I just can imagine letting my Beta's go.

 

[DD66000]

I see people hanging towers upside down on their tv's I mean come on. That's insane. Lol

That's a bit extreme and I had a 24" tall center above my screen, along with one below, for a few days, just to give it a listen.

500 is too much for my budget right now.

It would be too much for my budget right now. But I've got more speakers than I need anyway.

A matching Center will work fine and even better in some cases. Putting speakers behind a fixed frame screen which I consider optimal in a Home Theater setup doesn't seem reasonable either.

Ya, some dedicated centers are just fine, but others are total crap. And for behind the screen one needs a very good AT screen.

Of course as always people should audition until they find the best.

It seems like that many of us need to purchase online and audition in the home, as there tends to be fewer and fewer B&M stores in many areas. Of ccoarse, that's the best place to audition anyway.

 

[lsiberian]

That's a bit extreme and I had a 24" tall center above my screen, along with one below, for a few days, just to give it a listen.

It would be too much for my budget right now. But I've got more speakers than I need anyway.


Ya, some dedicated centers are just fine, but others are total crap. And for behind the screen one needs a very good AT screen.



It seems like that many of us need to purchase online and audition in the home, as there tends to be fewer and fewer B&M stores in many areas. Of ccoarse, that's the best place to audition anyway.

Personally I don't want anything other than PQ factored into my screen. I mean the picture is ultimately the most noticeable thing. Plus non framed screens will waive unless tab tensioned and those tab tensioned screens cost an arm a leg and 2 feet. And way more than a great front sound stage with one of those good centers that you can even aim at the crowd.

Yeah ID is really the way to go IMO and ebay if you know your brand preferences. For Infinity fanboys the beta auctions are a dream come true.

But there is a difference between well designed centers and poor ones. Tweeter above midrange at the very least. Some day I will build my own if I'm allowed hehe.

 

[jostenmeat]

It would depend if they were true horizontal mtm (that would be bad) or if the tweeters midranges were vertically stacked, with the mid-bass to the sides.

Yes, of course. I didn't type WTMW for a reason, but MTM.

But there is a difference between well designed centers and poor ones. Tweeter above midrange at the very least. Some day I will build my own if I'm allowed hehe.

And the extent of its off axis performance is still determined by the xover point between woofers and mid.

Even a horiz MTM might not be all too bad if the woofers' spacing was closer, and the xover point was lowered. I'm sure such designs are far and few between though. In fact, does anyone know of a "better" designed horiz MTM? (oxymoron, I know).

 

[DD66000]

Well I prefer having good sound all around and a smaller screen (65") than have a 100" screen and some half assed sound system. But if I were ever to go to a screen/projector, it would have to be an AT screen. The two sets of speakers I currently have are wall mountable, only 6" deep. Could put all three behind or just the center.

 

[CraigV]

Here's the link to the info I mentioned - a lot of info to read about, but very worth while:

http://www.grammy.com/PDFs/Recording_Academy/Producers_And_Engineers/5_1_Rec.pdf

 

[lsiberian]

Well I prefer having good sound all around and a smaller screen (65") than have a 100" screen and some half assed sound system. But if I were ever to go to a screen/projector, it would have to be an AT screen. The two sets of speakers I currently have are wall mountable, only 6" deep. Could put all three behind or just the center.

We all have our preferences. But I wouldn't call my center half-assed. I actually put my screen above my speakers so that's an option too.

 

[CraigV]

Of all the pieces of equipment that make up an audio reproduction system, speakers afford the most noticeable difference/change from one system to another. As such, they are also the most subjective, i.e. one person might comment that a speaker is very “detailed” while another person listening to the same speaker & associated equipment might find the sound to be “analytical”.

There is no right or wrong in this matter – if you like what you hear and it’s within your budget – go for it. It’s OK to come to a site like this to get some ideas, but don’t let anyone tell you what you should buy.