Do you know where I can find an AMP like this one?

[JCanada]

He was doing what a good owner/salesman should- show potential customers things they aren't familiar with- stores sell different brands and models for a reason- they know that one store's price will be different and it's less cutthroat. Nobody wants to sell against five or more stores that sell the same brands & models because at some point, the price is gonna drop and that's a deep hole to dig out of.

Indeed.

 

[JCanada]

Tubes can be really good, but the differences between them can be very subtle, if audible, at all. Outut tubes can easily blot out the benefits of preamp tubes and they do vary in sound. One thing to be careful about- when the verbal description of the sound of one amp or another becomes filled with strange adjectives, it's time to run away.

Watch this video- it's about 12AX7 tubes for guitar amps, but he makes some good points about how different they can be, or not.

Then, the point that an amp or preamp has more than one tube in the signal path, so the differences can be clouded by that.

I'm not trying to say that I don't like tubes- I do, for some uses. I have owned several guitar amps with tubes and a couple that are solid state- for that, I only use tubess but the solid state stereo amplifiers I have owned sound better than the tube stereo amplifiers, the sound of which degraded over time as the tubes aged and the current to them affected them differently and that's another point to consider- do you want to be required to have the equipment serviced periodically, or do you want to use it? I worked at a music store more than 50 years ago and started working for a stereo store in Feb, 1978- we had someone who would come into the music store to pick up equipment to be serviced- I Iearned a lot from him and at the other places I worked for all had service departments, some with people who had worked with tube equipment for a long time. I learned from all, but the one thing that overrides my enthusiasm for tube equipment is the knowledge that it will need service sooner than most solid state equipment.

The look, smell and often warm sound from tubes is great, but at this point, finding a good service tech is becoming difficult. In some places, it's incredibly difficult- nobody wants to pay for shipping if something isn't repairable at the store and needs to be sent somewhere else. If it was designed and built outside of your country, it might be a bumpy ride. I have worked continuously in audio and AV/Home Theater for more than 50 years- used to be that we had many repair shops, then they dropped out one by one. Last Fall, the shop that did service work for almost all stereo stores and who was authorized to repairs for most brands in the SE part of Wisconsin closed. Now, everyone is either not taking equipment in for service, scrambling and hoping a new guy can do it or finding out they made a mistake by trusting someone who couldn't deliver on their promises.

Call around to find a good service tech- I don't know where you live, but maybe some stores can recommend someone.

People have aged out of the service end of the business and manay have passed on- those of us who have been in the business for decades are saddened by the fact that this job is no longer a decent path as a career.

I am starting to rethink the tube amp.

 

[JCanada]

You said your two ch rig was separate from your avr so why use this switch? All ARC does generally is allows Audio Return Channel in the hdmi cable so that you can use audio originating in the tv. Do you originate audio in your tv? Easier to just run hdmi sources into your avr then out to your tv from avr (and in the case of audio originating in the tv, you can still use the same setup).

I use a ROKU to stream music.(Deezer, SiriusXM, Spotify, YouTube).The ROKU is connected to my Onkyo AVR. The DAC I was looking at, had both an optical input, and an HDMI input. Store dealer said to use the HFDMI over the optical. So, i would have to get the eARC audio out of the TV and into the DAC. I want to use 2 systems, (1 surround, & one 2 ch), but just one (1) TV. The AVR is coonected to he TV with the eARC HDMI. I can run an optical from TV into the DAC or 2 channel amp, but I want to use the HDMI in on the DAC. Isn't the HDMI on the DAC better, more detail, more bits, hrz's, more tech? I use the TV as the interface. Am I looking at this wrong? How do I get the HDMI audio into the DAC, if the DAC and 2 ch amp is not connected tot the Onbkyo AVR?

 

[JCanada]

This whole thread looks to be based around DACphoolery, so it's probably too late for that !
Amazing how much trouble 20 bucks worth of DAC chips can cause

Agreed.

 

[JCanada]

Overpriced cabling, preamp that employs tubes (probably overpriced, as well as having dubious merit and lacks features that actually will make a difference, e.g. bass management)...compared to genuine improvements, such as speaker and sub upgrades, the magic wire and limited function tube pre are lateral moves at best, if not a step or three backwards. So, yeah, you're a salesman's dream come true.


Upgrade from what specifically? What do you have now? What are your current rigs limitations or shortcomings? What are you hoping to achieve?

I have a Sony TV, an Onkyo AVR, ROKU streamer. Roku connected to AVR. I want to have a 2 channel amp separate form the Onkyo. A DAC as well. The 2 channel amp wil be analogue, no digital inputs, going into a 2 channel power amp. Plus another separate sub. I always use the TV as the interface. I listen to Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube, from my Roku. Looking to finally upgrade to the 2 systems I have been dreaming about. "Shortcummings" are not that serious. I am a bit of an accumulator, collector I guess. I'd also like to have a 2nd set of floor standing speakers for the 2 channel amp. Maybe the tube pre-amp is not the right move. Yeah, I can see how a salesman might be lickin' his lips when I walk through the door. This forum back and fourth has been a great help. Save me some money.

 

[isolar8001]

I have a Sony TV, an Onkyo AVR, ROKU streamer. Roku connected to AVR. I want to have a 2 channel amp separate form the Onkyo. A DAC as well. The 2 channel amp wil be analogue, no digital inputs, going into a 2 channel power amp. Plus another separate sub. I always use the TV as the interface. I listen to Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube, from my Roku. Looking to finally upgrade to the 2 systems I have been dreaming about. "Shortcummings" are not that serious. I am a bit of an accumulator, collector I guess. I'd also like to have a 2nd set of floor standing speakers for the 2 channel amp. Maybe the tube pre-amp is not the right move. Yeah, I can see how a salesman might be lickin' his lips when I walk through the door. This forum back and fourth has been a great help. Save me some money.

Looks to me like all of this is for naught if your only music source is Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube.
Even if you had full HD audio coming in from any of those music streaming sources, a ROKU isn't going to pass it.

You can reDAC/reroute the ROKU all you want, and it surely won't improve.

No system is any better than its source...you would be better off spending money on a better source device than wasting money on a DAC. (even though you already have)

ROKU isn't what you should be using if streaming apps are your only source and quality is your goal.
The apps in your Onkyo would even be better.
Maybe someone here can recommend a better audio streaming device. I don't stream myself, so I'm not going to.

 

[highfigh]

I have a Sony TV, an Onkyo AVR, ROKU streamer. Roku connected to AVR. I want to have a 2 channel amp separate form the Onkyo. A DAC as well. The 2 channel amp wil be analogue, no digital inputs, going into a 2 channel power amp. Plus another separate sub. I always use the TV as the interface. I listen to Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube, from my Roku. Looking to finally upgrade to the 2 systems I have been dreaming about. "Shortcummings" are not that serious. I am a bit of an accumulator, collector I guess. I'd also like to have a 2nd set of floor standing speakers for the 2 channel amp.- Maybe the tube pre-amp is not the right move. Yeah, I can see how a salesman might be lickin' his lips when I walk through the door. This forum back and fourth has been a great help. Save me some money.

FWIW, a friend of mine worked at a local stereo/AV retailer than sells McIntosh, and AudioQuest, was their top Munster salesman (management actually booted a couple of them for not selling it (I had worked for that company and still wouldn't have had any luck staying if I had been honest with customers), worked at another higher end store along the way and owns some Audio Quest cables, but I have been explaining why they can't do what is claimed, so he's gradually replacing them, as time allows. He has some Audio Research equipment and used it for a long time but recently, he decided to reinstall the solid state power amp- he was surprised to find that he prefers the sound to the tube amp he was using and that surprised him because he really liked it.

This can happen when our subconscious mind makes decisions without our input. This isn't always an obvious difference, many times it comes through hearing a detail that 'wasn't there before' in music that hadn't been heard recently. While that's dfinitely possible, the fact is, our 'hearing memory' isn't great over long periods of time. Yes, we can recognize voices that haven't been heard in decades, but fine details aren't as easy most of the time. That's one reason listening tests need to include a direct comparison, not listening to equipment at one place and other equipment at another after driving and being exposed to noise, music at moderate to high volume, car horns, etc.

Best advice I can give after selling audio/AV gear over decades- find something you like and enjoy it- once you have it, you won't be comparing it with anything else. Trying to find 'the best' is a good way to become neurotic about it.

 

[lovinthehd]

I use a ROKU to stream music.(Deezer, SiriusXM, Spotify, YouTube).The ROKU is connected to my Onkyo AVR. The DAC I was looking at, had both an optical input, and an HDMI input. Store dealer said to use the HFDMI over the optical. So, i would have to get the eARC audio out of the TV and into the DAC. I want to use 2 systems, (1 surround, & one 2 ch), but just one (1) TV. The AVR is coonected to he TV with the eARC HDMI. I can run an optical from TV into the DAC or 2 channel amp, but I want to use the HDMI in on the DAC. Isn't the HDMI on the DAC better, more detail, more bits, hrz's, more tech? I use the TV as the interface. Am I looking at this wrong? How do I get the HDMI audio into the DAC, if the DAC and 2 ch amp is not connected tot the Onbkyo AVR?

I'd simply plug the Roku into the avr and use the avr's dacs instead of an external dac. HDMI has more bandwidth capability, but mostly that relates to video signal, but does handle just about any kind of audio signal (and for audio originating in a tv, eARC can take advantage of more types of audio signals from the tv than older ARC could, but that's partially dependent on the tv).

 

[ski2xblack]

Ok, so you're a "collector", but IMO seem to be unnecessarily complexifying things on the front end (meaning the sources, preamp, hdmi switcher). You mention a second sub, but nothing else pertaining to specific speakers or general system configuration (are you adding a second sub to an existing multichannel rig, or setting up a secondary two channel w/ sub system?), so your goals are still a bit unclear. You mention adding an external amp, which may or may not be necessary (it depends on your speaker's sensitivies and capabilities, your room/distances involved, and your listening habits).

Generally speaking, improvements, genuine improvements, are accomplished by upgrading speakers. Amplification requirements are then dictated by the speakers, but understand that amps just amplify, they don't "improve" anything aside from providing the power to drive the speakers. We just don't know if you need more than what your Onkyo AVR can deliver, so it seems imprudent to endorse an external amp without justification.

The front end components will provide little in terms of "improvements" compared to speakers, they're just not the restricting aspect to quality sound as speakers are. While the quality of the source material is critical, the front end components are more about having the features you need.

So because of all of that, expenditures towards speakers makes a whole lot more sense than shuffling extra front end components into the mix, particularly if those pieces of kit are redundant, unnecessary, or don't address a specific need (to serve your musical pleasure, not the needs of the salesman to make a buck). Those front end expenses should be kept to only what's absolutely necessary to access the music.

 

[highfigh]

Looks to me like all of this is for naught if your only music source is Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube.
Even if you had full HD audio coming in from any of those music streaming sources, a ROKU isn't going to pass it.

You can reDAC/reroute the ROKU all you want, and it surely won't improve.

No system is any better than its source...you would be better off spending money on a better source device than wasting money on a DAC. (even though you already have)

ROKU isn't what you should be using if streaming apps are your only source and quality is your goal.
The apps in your Onkyo would even be better.
Maybe someone here can recommend a better audio streaming device. I don't stream myself, so I'm not going to.

I use a Yamaha WXC-30 for streaming and some switching, but I used it as my preamp in the system with the Parasound A23 power amp. At the time, the optical from the TV went to the Yamaha, the Roku fed the TV, BD went to an HDMI on the TV, turntable wasn't used. Now, I feed the digital out from the Yamaha to the Parasound P5 preamp, optical goes to the P5, turntable goes to the P5 and BD still goes to the TV.

I like the sound from my system and haven't changed anything since I went back to the Parasound P5 over a year ago.

I don't have a problem with the sound of streaming with the ROKU- videos with music sound great if they were recorded well. I have heard much more expensive systems that didn't sound as good and I have done A/B switching between the speakers I built and others that are more expensive with very favorable results.

I'm not happy if the sound isn't really good, but I'm done chasing it- if I need to replace something, Iisten and compare, but I like it as it is. I was pleasantly surprised when I first saw and heard the MusicCast equipment and have had mine for about 7 years- aside from occasional updates, Yamaha doesn't plan to replace it, but a couple of the updates made a major improvement.

 

[Verdinut]

I use a Yamaha WXC-30 for streaming and some switching, but I used it as my preamp in the system with the Parasound A23 power amp. At the time, the optical from the TV went to the Yamaha, the Roku fed the TV, BD went to an HDMI on the TV, turntable wasn't used. Now, I feed the digital out from the Yamaha to the Parasound P5 preamp, optical goes to the P5, turntable goes to the P5 and BD still goes to the TV.

I like the sound from my system and haven't changed anything since I went back to the Parasound P5 over a year ago.

I don't have a problem with the sound of streaming with the ROKU- videos with music sound great if they were recorded well. I have heard much more expensive systems that didn't sound as good and I have done A/B switching between the speakers I built and others that are more expensive with very favorable results.

I'm not happy if the sound isn't really good, but I'm done chasing it- if I need to replace something, Iisten and compare, but I like it as it is. I was pleasantly surprised when I first saw and heard the MusicCast equipment and have had mine for about 7 years- aside from occasional updates, Yamaha doesn't plan to replace it, but a couple of the updates made a major improvement.

I have also been using Roku which can sound great depending on recorded source. At present, it's mainly used for steaming Met Opera recordings which I have access to with a subscription.

By the way, would you mind elaborate on the speakers that you built. Drivers used and a photo of cabinets would be interesting.

 

[JCanada]

Looks to me like all of this is for naught if your only music source is Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube.
Even if you had full HD audio coming in from any of those music streaming sources, a ROKU isn't going to pass it.

You can reDAC/reroute the ROKU all you want, and it surely won't improve.

No system is any better than its source...you would be better off spending money on a better source device than wasting money on a DAC. (even though you already have)

ROKU isn't what you should be using if streaming apps are your only source and quality is your goal.
The apps in your Onkyo would even be better.
Maybe someone here can recommend a better audio streaming device. I don't stream myself, so I'm not going to.

Thanks. I tried the DEEZER app on my Onkyo AVR. It came native to the unit. My issues with it were the interface. It was unbearable. Very difficult to navigate. The Deezer app on ROKU was much better, not perfect, but not as bad as the Onkyo interface. Now the ROKU point is mute because Deezer is no longer offered on ROKU. In the past, I got some recommendations on where else to stream Deeezer. The suggestions were more or less "to try different streaming devices that were similar to the ROKU."
I don't think I would like to purchase an Invidia Sheild if the sound quality is exactly the same as the Roku. My journey continues.

 

[JCanada]

Ok, so you're a "collector", but IMO seem to be unnecessarily complexifying things on the front end (meaning the sources, preamp, hdmi switcher). You mention a second sub, but nothing else pertaining to specific speakers or general system configuration (are you adding a second sub to an existing multichannel rig, or setting up a secondary two channel w/ sub system?), so your goals are still a bit unclear. You mention adding an external amp, which may or may not be necessary (it depends on your speaker's sensitivies and capabilities, your room/distances involved, and your listening habits).

Generally speaking, improvements, genuine improvements, are accomplished by upgrading speakers. Amplification requirements are then dictated by the speakers, but understand that amps just amplify, they don't "improve" anything aside from providing the power to drive the speakers. We just don't know if you need more than what your Onkyo AVR can deliver, so it seems imprudent to endorse an external amp without justification.

The front end components will provide little in terms of "improvements" compared to speakers, they're just not the restricting aspect to quality sound as speakers are. While the quality of the source material is critical, the front end components are more about having the features you need.

So because of all of that, expenditures towards speakers makes a whole lot more sense than shuffling extra front end components into the mix, particularly if those pieces of kit are redundant, unnecessary, or don't address a specific need (to serve your musical pleasure, not the needs of the salesman to make a buck). Those front end expenses should be kept to only what's absolutely necessary to access the music.

I Currently listen to 2 channel form my Onkyo AVR. I wish to create a separate 2 channel system, with separate speakers going to a separate 2 channel pre-amp to amp setup. With a separate sub to the 2nd system. While still maintaining a smart TV as the interface.
Yeah, I might be complex-ifying things, but I am willing to go through with it. What I am still a bit confused about are my sources. I thought a DAC would improve Sirius, Deezer, Spotify. I currently stream those apps from a ROKU device. (Except Deezer).
How would I improve whats coming out of Deezer Spotify SiriusXM?

 

[JCanada]

Thanks. I tried the DEEZER app on my Onkyo AVR. It came native to the unit. My issues with it were the interface. It was unbearable. Very difficult to navigate. The Deezer app on ROKU was much better, not perfect, but not as bad as the Onkyo interface. Now the ROKU point is mute because Deezer is no longer offered on ROKU. In the past, I got some recommendations on where else to stream Deeezer. The suggestions were more or less "to try different streaming devices that were similar to the ROKU."
I don't think I would like to purchase an Invidia Sheild if the sound quality is exactly the same as the Roku. My journey continues.

"...Better source device..."
That is my new search. Thanks again.

 

[JCanada]

Looks to me like all of this is for naught if your only music source is Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube.
Even if you had full HD audio coming in from any of those music streaming sources, a ROKU isn't going to pass it.

You can reDAC/reroute the ROKU all you want, and it surely won't improve.

No system is any better than its source...you would be better off spending money on a better source device than wasting money on a DAC. (even though you already have)

ROKU isn't what you should be using if streaming apps are your only source and quality is your goal.
The apps in your Onkyo would even be better.
Maybe someone here can recommend a better audio streaming device. I don't stream myself, so I'm not going to.

"...Better source device..."
That is my new search. Thanks again.

 

[MrBoat]

I have tube, MOSFET, class A, A/B, D, vintage and modern amps and older AVRs for 2-channel. The computer age is making it to where even the budget stuff is climbing up high-end equipment's bum. When I rotate one type amp into place of another, after just a few minutes, whatever subtle, audible differences exist, are lost on me after a few minutes. I end up just using the most powerful, low maintenance 'do-all' one, which happens to be the old AVR, even for two-channel.

My second system is in my bedroom. In spite of having tube pre/headphone amp and a streamer to go with it, among others, I end up using the WiiM amp and a pair of 5" bookshelf speakers that don't even need subs at all, even though the WiiM has subwoofer accommodations and EQ. I have 4 subs I could use but just ended up not needing them.

I am not one to gawk at equipment when I listen. I prefer to read album credits and band history research instead so the electronics are mostly hidden. This is mostly why I use a PC or a phone as a source, so I can surf while I listen. With spotify, I leave it on the artist page and just zone out into the music, just like I used to do with album covers back in the day. Anything beyond that is a distraction to me, changing my otherwise musically immersive session, into an ambient one. The latter of which, I could get by with a portable radio without any fuss.

These days, in spite of what the charlatans of all this inflict, less is steadily becoming more. The fact that I can get my yah-yahs from a single, moderately powered class D streaming amp and a phone and just a pair of speakers says a lot. I end up being as proud of it, or perhaps even more so than my vintage stuff. Instead of getting all side-swiped into tube rolling and other quirky things, I have instead focused on optimizing efficient, minimalist equipment instead, with just very good speakers.

The two DIY speakers that have become favorites, a DIY tube Pre, a DIY Icepower class D amp, and a CD player. And now the WiiM has replaced these units and they reside in my bedroom now. I listen to these every night, and fight with it to beat it to the stop button before another good song comes on, each morning.

Anymore, I believe much of this tube, DAC, opamp infatuations is people trying to somehow EQ/color the myriad of what amounts to overly bright speakers in production today.

 

[JCanada]

I'd simply plug the Roku into the avr and use the avr's dacs instead of an external dac. HDMI has more bandwidth capability, but mostly that relates to video signal, but does handle just about any kind of audio signal (and for audio originating in a tv, eARC can take advantage of more types of audio signals from the tv than older ARC could, but that's partially dependent on the tv).

I thought about going optical cable out of the TV in to the 2 channel DAC, pre-amp, amp. That way, I keep my current Onkyo AVR setup, and add the additional separate 2 channel setup. This way, no HDMI switcher. I still keep the ROKU for apps.
Now, I am adding new variable to my search. It involves a better way to deliver Deezer, Spotify, SiriusXM and YouTube.

 

[JCanada]

I have tube, MOSFET, class A, A/B, D, vintage and modern amps and older AVRs for 2-channel. The computer age is making it to where even the budget stuff is climbing up high-end equipment's bum. When I rotate one type amp into place of another, after just a few minutes, whatever subtle, audible differences exist, are lost on me after a few minutes. I end up just using the most powerful, low maintenance 'do-all' one, which happens to be the old AVR, even for two-channel.

My second system is in my bedroom. In spite of having tube pre/headphone amp and a streamer to go with it, among others, I end up using the WiiM amp and a pair of 5" bookshelf speakers that don't even need subs at all, even though the WiiM has subwoofer accommodations and EQ. I have 4 subs I could use but just ended up not needing them.

I am not one to gawk at equipment when I listen. I prefer to read album credits and band history research instead so the electronics are mostly hidden. This is mostly why I use a PC or a phone as a source, so I can surf while I listen. With spotify, I leave it on the artist page and just zone out into the music, just like I used to do with album covers back in the day. Anything beyond that is a distraction to me, changing my otherwise musically immersive session, into an ambient one. The latter of which, I could get by with a portable radio without any fuss.

These days, in spite of what the charlatans of all this inflict, less is steadily becoming more. The fact that I can get my yah-yahs from a single, moderately powered class D streaming amp and a phone and just a pair of speakers says a lot. I end up being as proud of it, or perhaps even more so than my vintage stuff. Instead of getting all side-swiped into tube rolling and other quirky things, I have instead focused on optimizing efficient, minimalist equipment instead, with just very good speakers.

The two DIY speakers that have become favorites, a DIY tube Pre, a DIY Icepower class D amp, and a CD player. And now the WiiM has replaced these units and they reside in my bedroom now. I listen to these every night, and fight with it to beat it to the stop button before another good song comes on, each morning.

View attachment 72987

Anymore, I believe much of this tube, DAC, opamp infatuations is people trying to somehow EQ/color the myriad of what amounts to overly bright speakers in production today.

Cool lookin' speakers. I am a fan of wood looks. Walnut, etc...
You brought me back when you mentioned reading album credits. I used to read song lyrics, on both albums and cassettes.
I am guilty of gawking though. I saw the Wharfedale AURA's and the Dynaudio EVOKE's. I had to have them. Even before listening. I know, not good. I am a saleman's dream.

 

[JCanada]

Looks to me like all of this is for naught if your only music source is Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube.
Even if you had full HD audio coming in from any of those music streaming sources, a ROKU isn't going to pass it.

You can reDAC/reroute the ROKU all you want, and it surely won't improve.

No system is any better than its source...you would be better off spending money on a better source device than wasting money on a DAC. (even though you already have)

ROKU isn't what you should be using if streaming apps are your only source and quality is your goal.
The apps in your Onkyo would even be better.
Maybe someone here can recommend a better audio streaming device. I don't stream myself, so I'm not going to.

"...Even if you had full HD audio coming in from any of those music streaming sources, a ROKU isn't going to pass it...."
Can you elaborate? I thought a digital signal was the same quality as long as it was digital. Not so?

 

[JCanada]

Looks to me like all of this is for naught if your only music source is Sirius, Deezer, Spotify, YouTube.
Even if you had full HD audio coming in from any of those music streaming sources, a ROKU isn't going to pass it.

You can reDAC/reroute the ROKU all you want, and it surely won't improve.

No system is any better than its source...you would be better off spending money on a better source device than wasting money on a DAC. (even though you already have)

ROKU isn't what you should be using if streaming apps are your only source and quality is your goal.
The apps in your Onkyo would even be better.
Maybe someone here can recommend a better audio streaming device. I don't stream myself, so I'm not going to.

Now you got me looking for a better streaming device.