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Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
You know. You've just forgotten!
"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans"
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Stereodude
Senior Audioholic
Foreclosure?
m-fine
Audioholic
Chu,
I think your post on the quality issues is barely applicable to pre-2007 speakers. There were some issues with some Rockets, but there are always issues with natural products like real wood veneers. The incidences of cracking and popping and whatever else were fairly rare and were quickly resolved which is exactly what you would expect. 100% elimination of veneer issues can only be expected at much higher price points where they can afford to be more selective in their materials and can afford to spend much more on QC checks prior to hand off to the end customer.
I have seen a number of pre-2007 rocket crossovers, and I think the quality of components used was good for the pricepoint and I never saw an issue with incorrect components or miss wiring on the boards themselves. If you were familiar with the crossovers you would understand why that would be extremely unlikely.
The issue with he crossovers was one of design. Funny you should bring up **** Pierce, when in my opinion, he is the one responsible for the crossover issues on the early rockets and the reason for the need for upgrades (if we believe he was the one who designed them). The 750 and 550 crossovers asked the woofers to play too high among other things, and the original 850 was a sonic disaster. This had nothing to do with components used or wiring mistakes, it had 100% to do with topology mistakes.
IMHO the 750 was a well built speaker with a bad XO design. Once the crossovers were upgraded to Ninja versions following Danny Richie's topology, they sounded very good for their price level and I think they also looked good for their price level. These speakers and the 850 sigs that followed WERE a good deal. Like the initial LS-6 they delivered a great experience for the money spent, and what came later does not in any way impact the sound or appearance of these speakers.
As for Cali and Uniaudio, they made some decent stuff too, until the veneer went on. I have 5 Cali made X series speakers and all have veneer issues, but they were also all sold as B stock because of it. For their sub $200 price tags these things sounded great, especially the Encore series. I challenge you to find a speaker that looks better or sounds better than my X-MTM Encores for $180 or less. Even as B-stocks with veneer flaws (minor in this case) they look better than anything else in their class. My X-sls look much worse, and much of the veneer cracking occurred well after I received them, so it was clearly in large part due to the quality of the material and not the skill of the factory doing the application. I would be pretty upset if I paid full price, but these were sold as B- stock (B minus as in worse than what would be considered B stock) with a price to match. They could have come in raw MDF for the price I paid and they would have been a good deal. Seriously, you would have a hard time buying a set of unfinished boxes, drivers and crossover components and assembling a equivalent speaker for what they were charging.
The owner was rotten to the core from day one, and they may be white van quality now, but they did sell some decent speakers at good prices for many years. The reputation was not just a myth even if it was built on theft and lies.
I think your post on the quality issues is barely applicable to pre-2007 speakers. There were some issues with some Rockets, but there are always issues with natural products like real wood veneers. The incidences of cracking and popping and whatever else were fairly rare and were quickly resolved which is exactly what you would expect. 100% elimination of veneer issues can only be expected at much higher price points where they can afford to be more selective in their materials and can afford to spend much more on QC checks prior to hand off to the end customer.
I have seen a number of pre-2007 rocket crossovers, and I think the quality of components used was good for the pricepoint and I never saw an issue with incorrect components or miss wiring on the boards themselves. If you were familiar with the crossovers you would understand why that would be extremely unlikely.
The issue with he crossovers was one of design. Funny you should bring up **** Pierce, when in my opinion, he is the one responsible for the crossover issues on the early rockets and the reason for the need for upgrades (if we believe he was the one who designed them). The 750 and 550 crossovers asked the woofers to play too high among other things, and the original 850 was a sonic disaster. This had nothing to do with components used or wiring mistakes, it had 100% to do with topology mistakes.
IMHO the 750 was a well built speaker with a bad XO design. Once the crossovers were upgraded to Ninja versions following Danny Richie's topology, they sounded very good for their price level and I think they also looked good for their price level. These speakers and the 850 sigs that followed WERE a good deal. Like the initial LS-6 they delivered a great experience for the money spent, and what came later does not in any way impact the sound or appearance of these speakers.
As for Cali and Uniaudio, they made some decent stuff too, until the veneer went on. I have 5 Cali made X series speakers and all have veneer issues, but they were also all sold as B stock because of it. For their sub $200 price tags these things sounded great, especially the Encore series. I challenge you to find a speaker that looks better or sounds better than my X-MTM Encores for $180 or less. Even as B-stocks with veneer flaws (minor in this case) they look better than anything else in their class. My X-sls look much worse, and much of the veneer cracking occurred well after I received them, so it was clearly in large part due to the quality of the material and not the skill of the factory doing the application. I would be pretty upset if I paid full price, but these were sold as B- stock (B minus as in worse than what would be considered B stock) with a price to match. They could have come in raw MDF for the price I paid and they would have been a good deal. Seriously, you would have a hard time buying a set of unfinished boxes, drivers and crossover components and assembling a equivalent speaker for what they were charging.
The owner was rotten to the core from day one, and they may be white van quality now, but they did sell some decent speakers at good prices for many years. The reputation was not just a myth even if it was built on theft and lies.
m-fine
Audioholic
This forum will not let you type D!ck Pierce? It is a common name, lighten up with the prude censorship a little.
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neuronbob
Audiophyte
A great post with great points. All my AV123 gear is from 2007 and before.
My Rockets and UFW-10 are solid as rocks. The products from that era were definitely good. Just because the founder turned out to be a rotten apple doesn't mean the early speakers weren't good. I see no reason to get read of my speaks yet, but I will never buy again from AV123.
Also, like DOJ, the whole experience with the forum thing has put me pretty much off audio fora and I honestly haven't found a new audio forum home yet. Too bad, because I see myself as still needing to learn a lot. Good to see some of the old group posting here.
My Rockets and UFW-10 are solid as rocks. The products from that era were definitely good. Just because the founder turned out to be a rotten apple doesn't mean the early speakers weren't good. I see no reason to get read of my speaks yet, but I will never buy again from AV123.
Also, like DOJ, the whole experience with the forum thing has put me pretty much off audio fora and I honestly haven't found a new audio forum home yet. Too bad, because I see myself as still needing to learn a lot. Good to see some of the old group posting here.
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geekinthehood
Audioholic Intern
This certainly irritates me, but then I realize that back when I paid for them (12/06), No-Rez wasn't included in the price. That, and a lot of other stuff got added after RMAF (I forget the year). I *think* they already had the cross-overs when they started cost cutting, so the ones I have are probably still the step-up that he promised.
I'd like to see that list again, but since MLS deleted all his postings...
Frankly, I hate the position he put me in. (and I'm one of the lucky ones: I eventually got what he owed me) I have 2 pairs of ELT towers, and one pair of LS-9s, and I absolutely love them... and yet I despise the man behind the company I bought them from, and can't recommend the company for anything more than an example of what NOT to do.
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myaudiocd
Enthusiast
I'll echo the others here. I have ~2007 Rockets, 760/450/250/200 and they're perfect, not a nail pop or problem. My PB UFW12 is a flawless cabinet and end table until Kevin can upgrade it. Then it'll be an awesome sub too.
My PBEM LS6's were first run and also as advertised, without a veneer flaw. I intentionally stayed away from the Uniaudio gear and electronics and glad I did.
My PBEM LS6's were first run and also as advertised, without a veneer flaw. I intentionally stayed away from the Uniaudio gear and electronics and glad I did.
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Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
I agree that matters got worse with time but from conversations with former employees, they weren't unknown.
It shouldn''t have happened at all.
It was MLS who came up with the basic cosmetic design and overall dimensions (influenced in no small part from Swan), a pricepoint he wanted to hit, all of which dictated the sorts of drivers that would be necessary. With MLS, it wasn't form follow function but the other way. The crossover was complex/unusual but there were parts issues from the get go. It's kind of moot nowadays since it's unlikely they'll ever come up with replacement parts.
That may be but consider an alternate explanation. A total rework of the crossovers can mask a deficiency in the original Chinese sourced parts and create the illusion that it's the topology differences that are a reason for improvements. While DR was kept on board for a long time (maybe he even still is in some capacity), Pierce was dumped not long after doing the initial work.
I once got into it a bit with DR and he blurted out that the parts used in the original DP crossovers were crap. Needless to say, MLS interjected himself quickly and no more was said about this. DP isn't going to spec garbage parts (neither will DR) so if you're getting the wrong stuff then the finger points to the vendor and of course Longmont which did not have any kind of QC program in place.
I once asked MLS if he could provide comprehensive graphs of the Rockets with their original DP crossover and the DR crossover. Months passed and I finally got an email. What I got for a reply was FR graphs done on two different speakers by two different people using different equipment. WTF? When I asked if I could see the same speaker measured by the same person with pre and post crossovers, they didn't exist. Matt, there was funny stuff going on there I tell you.
Do you know how they put the veneer on over there? They used phucking steam irons like you iron your shirts with! There was no control of temperature, time, pressure, duration. That would've taken money and equipment. Cali was a complete and total cluster-phuck. I've heard the babes were nice though.
I too think they started out pretty good and with a good QC program in place and a desire to keep improving, problems couldn've been both avoided and minimized with time. In the end, MLS turned out to be the biggest douche in the audiophile universe.
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Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
I have that list somewhere. Wish me luck in finding it.
C
Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
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Matt34
Moderator
MLS next court appearance?
Last edited by a moderator:
T2T
Senior Audioholic
I don't believe that event is scheduled until the end of June. It's a pity we have to wait so long.
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Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
AFAIK, his next court appearance isn't going to be a trial. No, it's a joyous event that you all know about.
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Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
Maybe the following is what you were looking for? It was a post by MLS on 11/29/07 that had to do with LS's.
Stereodude
Senior Audioholic
Ok, so it happens on Friday. Is it the anniversary of something?
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thenatinator
Junior Audioholic
We want answers damnit
I think we should really revist this entire Qaddafi situation. Write your senator today.They should raid his camp and waterboard all neighbors for relevent information.
MinusTheBear
Audioholic Ninja
A birthday?
T2T
Senior Audioholic
Kyle will be submitting his resignation to VA321?
The domain name for the VA321 forums / site will expire and not be renewed?
Mark will post his next set of items for sale on Craigslist?
Hmm ... there are so many possibilities.
The domain name for the VA321 forums / site will expire and not be renewed?
Mark will post his next set of items for sale on Craigslist?
Hmm ... there are so many possibilities.
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Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
Stereodude and Minus are on to it. It's the birthday of the Humbly Bumbly one. So, get your thinking caps on and find something appropriate to wish him.
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thenatinator
Junior Audioholic
Gift Idea
Maybe we should all pitch in for postage and send him one of those costumer loyalty $100 off a mfw coupons.
Maybe we should all pitch in for postage and send him one of those costumer loyalty $100 off a mfw coupons.
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