Do I need a seperate amp?

[MacManNM]

Correct. In fact, audioholics.com recently reviewed such an amplifier.



True. However, I was referring to unsubstantiated claims generated out of thin air, not differences that will result in real measured differences that can be correlated with perceptual research or verified in double-blinded listening tests. Due to many claims that are typically made, I strongly suspect that most people claim audible differences where none exist: that is the premise of my reply.

-Chris

And my point is that unless you have those measured results from a 3rd party, you can't tell unless you listen. So all amplifiers do not sound the same.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Read page 6 of Clint's review of the Pioneer receiver. I think we can all respect Clint for his honest reviews.

The receiver in question is the VSX-815, which is rated in Stereo at 100 watts x 2 (20Hz-20kHz; 0.7% THD @ 8-ohms).

Martyr and Chris, if you still think amps sound the same after this "real world" review, then you are slighting the members here. Science has a time and place for everything, but I think the members here would rather read reviews such as this one, as opposed to how all amps, when eq'd and leveled to "try" and sound the same (as you can see, even Clint had trouble eq'ing this one to perfection after the auto set up was completed).

Here's a few quotes from the review.

"but I could tell that they would have benefited from more power and amplifier control. There was no doubt, however, that the Pioneer could play loud, but it tended to start to lose detail once I extended it past 85dB at the seated position."

Many of us listen to music above 85dB/

"Track 6, "Realizer", gave me a bit more of high frequency to listen to and involved some smooth pans across the soundstage, which was narrow but pleasing."

"I felt that cranking up the Pioneer resulted in a more recessed sound with loss of some of the soundstage and detail."

"You can get better detail and control, but you'll be spending more to do so."

" If you need the volume, it's there, though with some constraints due to the capabilities of the power supply when driving low impedance, moderately efficient speakers such as my reference setup."

"I've heard more detail with more robust amplifiers"

Comments?
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/PioneerVSX-815ReceiverReview6.php

 

[WmAx]

Martyr and Chris, if you still think amps sound the same after this "real world" review, then you are slighting the members here.

If you believe that I ever sated that "all amplifiers sound the same", then you have not paid attention.

Science has a time and place for everything, but I think the members here would rather read reviews such as this one, as opposed to how all amps, when eq'd and leveled to "try" and sound the same (as you can see, even Clint had trouble eq'ing this one to perfection after the auto set up was completed).

The review in question covers alot more than just the amplifier section[as you refer to in the E.Q.ing].

So far as any specific reviewer's subjective listening impressions of an amplifier[for example] that are aquired without proper double-blinded protocols, it's no more reliable than anyone else's subjective listening impressions that don't use proper double-blinded protocols.

-Chris

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

If you believe that I ever sated that "all amplifiers sound the same", then you have not paid attention.

Really? I've read more of your posts than most anyone on this site. You need to add "adjusting parameters to level the playing field." Why bother?

Due to many claims that are typically made, I strongly suspect that most people claim audible differences where none exist: that is the premise of my reply.

So are you saying Clint is claiming audible differences? Do none exist? Is he incorrect for stating a more robust amplifier may yield better results without performing a double blind test?

So far as any specific reviewer's subjective listening impressions of an amplifier[for example] that are aquired without proper double-blinded protocols, it's no more reliable than anyone else's subjective listening impressions that don't use proper double-blinded protocols.

So Clint's review is a waste of our time if we are comparing the last three receivers he's reviewed? Do you have a personal website we can all go to so we can get "just the facts?"

 

[WmAx]

Really? I've read more of your posts than most anyone on this site. You need to add "adjusting parameters to level the playing field." Why bother?

What is your point? You made an inaccurate statement in the last reply.

So are you saying Clint is claiming audible differences? Do none exist? Is he incorrect for stating a more robust amplifier may yield better results without performing a double blind test?

I have not singled out Clint's[or any specific reviewer's] claims. I stated a general notice.

-Chris

 

[MacManNM]

What is your point? You made an inaccurate statement in the last reply.




I have not singled out Clint's[or any specific reviewer's] claims. I stated a general notice.

-Chris

Maybe not by name but you sure implied it:

So far as any specific reviewer's subjective listening impressions of an amplifier[for example] that are aquired without proper double-blinded protocols, it's no more reliable than anyone else's subjective listening impressions that don't use proper double-blinded protocols.

Can you please show some data that could meet this reasonable criteria:
1. A double blind test

2. Done in a fashon where the general output levels of the amplifiers are matched within .5db.

3. There is no frequency compensation, ie. eq's or the like.

4. Several speakers with different load qualities are used.

5. Done in several different listening enviorments.

6. Switching between the amplifiers takes less than 1 second (as your sonic memory is not much longer than that).

 

[PENG]

I am just an audiophyte at this point. I have a new system composed of ;
Paradigm Studio 100 mains,a CC470center,ADP470 rears,and a PW2200 sub .My power is a Denon 3805. This sounds great to my ears and pdg to my wife who has very demanding ears. Will the addition of a seperate amplifier make a great difference if our playing level is at lower medium volume? Our room measures 14x25x8 and is set up like this.

I have tried using my 3805 with a 200 WPC Adcom and a 300 WPC Bryston. I did not hear the hugh difference that 20 to 20K claimed. May be his equipment and room acoustic makes it easier for him to tell the difference. In my case, I have to listen very carefully, and tried hard to listen for the expected improvements in details, and sound stage etc., in order to convince myself that difference in sound quality/characteristics exist between the Denon only, Denon + Adcom and Denon + Bryston. My Veritas speakers have a sensitivity rating of something like 87/88 dB, so they are not too easy, nor too hard to drive. I also had problem convincing other members of my family, and friends, that one combination sounds better, or just different than the others.

So my short answer to your question is, it "difference", but it is unlikely that you will hear the "great difference". By the way, before I decided on the Veritas, I had also auditoned the Studio 100, driven by an high end Anthem separate setup and a Yamaha RX-V2400 receiver. The difference was not "great". By quickly switching the speaker cables from one set up to the other, there appeared to be some differences in details and sound stage, but I would not say I could pick them out in a double blind test. Again, I was with two other persons, they could not hear any significant difference neither.

Please note that I am not participating in the current debate. I am just trying to response to Rich's question, based on my experience with the specific equipment I mentioned.

 

[WmAx]

Can you please show some data that could meet this reasonable criteria:

What does this have to do with my reply?

-Chris

 

[zipper]

I can hear the difference. Plain & simple. My Axioms have a more balanced & more detailed sound with amps hooked up than just fed by my Yammy 3300. No question about it. If there was no audible difference I wouldn't have wasted any more money buying additional amps.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

If you believe that I ever sated that "all amplifiers sound the same", then you have not paid attention.

Chris, when you take a quote out of context, people paraphrase it. This is what was said. Please read before posting and slighting our members.

This is the actuall quote:

Martyr and Chris, if you still think amps sound the same after this "real world" review, then you are slighting the members here. Science has a time and place for everything, but I think the members here would rather read reviews such as this one, as opposed to how all amps, when eq'd and leveled to "try" and sound the same (as you can see, even Clint had trouble eq'ing this one to perfection after the auto set up was completed).

 

[WmAx]

Chris, when you take a quote out of context, people paraphrase it. This is what was said. Please read before posting and slighting our members.

This is the actuall quote:

Uh-hum. Wrong. Read your own quote, where you word it as if I ever promoted or stated that all amplifiers sounded the same.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

I am just pointing out the obvious.

Is that what you did? Really?

You read what you want to see in print, not what is in print. Seems familiar to perception and hearing, isn't it?

 

[mtrycrafts]

The whole point here is that some companies do tailor the FR of their amps to give them a characteristic sound.

Who said different? What you seem to think and perhaps believe that this tailoring will not show up on some spec sheets. If so, big mistake.

That is not something you can tell by a spec sheet that says 20-20K +- 3db.


False. You can most of the time. Even with that anomaly, that 3 dB is at the ends of the pands where your hearing for such change is not that sensitive. Check out a FR curve of detection.


So if there is indeed a 6db change in the FR you are going to hear it.

HUH???

It says 3 +/- It will not have a 6 dB change in the same octave and you will not hear it if it is at each ends of the spectrum, 3= at one end and 3- at the other.


Hence the terms, bright, warm, soft. I don’t think that is too subjective.

Wrong. those claims are subjective , very, not spec based.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I guess he likes to imagine that all amps sound identical.

I think you need to check up on your imaginatin first, before you imagine about others.

 

[mtrycrafts]

you can't tell unless you listen. So all amplifiers do not sound the same.

No, you cannot tell from listening unless you use bias controls, level matching, etc. If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourself and that is what the problem is.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Read page 6 of Clint's review of the Pioneer receiver. I think we can all respect Clint for his honest reviews.

The receiver in question is the VSX-815, which is rated in Stereo at 100 watts x 2 (20Hz-20kHz; 0.7% THD @ 8-ohms).

Martyr and Chris, if you still think amps sound the same after this "real world" review, then you are slighting the members here. Science has a time and place for everything, but I think the members here would rather read reviews such as this one, as opposed to how all amps, when eq'd and leveled to "try" and sound the same (as you can see, even Clint had trouble eq'ing this one to perfection after the auto set up was completed).

He listened to one amp, not compared it to another for sonic differences. He didn't use bias controls for evaluations for sound differences, did he. Is he immune from human bias???

So, it is his very subjective opinion of a component with nothing to judge it with. And, no, memory of others will not suffice.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Maybe not by name but you sure implied it:



Can you please show some data that could meet this reasonable criteria:
1. A double blind test

2. Done in a fashon where the general output levels of the amplifiers are matched within .5db.

3. There is no frequency compensation, ie. eq's or the like.

4. Several speakers with different load qualities are used.

5. Done in several different listening enviorments.

6. Switching between the amplifiers takes less than 1 second (as your sonic memory is not much longer than that).

firstly, all ABX are level matched to .1dBspl, for your information. Second, the ABX box switches real fast, better than that. But why switch it when th emusic is running and not stopped? You will forget what you are comparing, regardless how fast you switch, the music changed, not comparable. You need to loop it in 1 second segments to meet your criteria. And, you need to jump on those that claim you need long term listeing, right?

If the two amps FR are not within the .1 dB and exceed the JND and exceeds the badnwidth JND, of course it is audible. So, you are not comparing apples to apples, but hear level difference, nothing more, nothing less. So what?

Why would you drive a speaker load that an amp cannot drive? That is what you are asking. Silly.

Otherwise, check out the references posted a few times in the past, here.

Oh, the listening room will not affect amps differently, just the overall acoustic soundfield. But you knew this, right? silly requirement.

By the way, where is your evidence for differences that meets all these points? Need more than just take your word for it. sorry.

 

[MacManNM]

The whole point here is that some companies do tailor the FR of their amps to give them a characteristic sound.

Who said different? What you seem to think and perhaps believe that this tailoring will not show up on some spec sheets. If so, big mistake.

That is not something you can tell by a spec sheet that says 20-20K +- 3db.


False. You can most of the time. Even with that anomaly, that 3 dB is at the ends of the pands where your hearing for such change is not that sensitive. Check out a FR curve of detection.


So if there is indeed a 6db change in the FR you are going to hear it.

HUH???

It says 3 +/- It will not have a 6 dB change in the same octave and you will not hear it if it is at each ends of the spectrum, 3= at one end and 3- at the other.


Hence the terms, bright, warm, soft. I don’t think that is too subjective.

Wrong. those claims are subjective , very, not spec based.

+-3db means a total deviation of no more than 6db from end to end of the response curve. IE, @20Hz it could be -3db and @17kHz it could be +3db

 

[mtrycrafts]

+-3db means a total deviation of no more than 6db from end to end of the response curve. IE, @20Hz it could be -3db and @17kHz it could be +3db

Yes, exactly. And that will not be audible a sthe 6 dB is not at the same frequency of the other component, unless it so happens that you are comparing two such components and it so happens that at the same frequency it will be 6 dB different. I will accept those statistical probabilities. Like nil. But, you could show me those two that meets the 6 dB difference at the same fr. But you may want to lower that to 16kHz, where the JND is 3dB spl increasing rapidly up.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well Tim,
If your deaf, then you have no buisness giving advice on audio matters.

Since where is my hearing relevant here? It is your hearing that is in question as you seem to claim all sorts of hearing ability, unsupported by facts.
You should also question my components, if I even have anything beyond a couple of boomboxes. Just as irrelevant.




As for the rest of your crap I'll quote my last post:

Oh, please, read your posts.