Do I need a seperate amp?

[Buckeyefan 1]

Ah, now we are getting somewhere, lower distortion you said, right?
How low do we need to go? .1%? .01%? .001%?

Which amps that we discuss here has audible distortion? Don't be shy.

www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7016463&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1099394773266

www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7034149&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1099395588707

Marty, your argument would state these receivers should sound the same as any 100 watt amplifier (and I'm assuming you'll agree to 1% or less thd). Why do you think they rate the wattage at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth? Why do they use 6 ohms as the benchmark instead of 8? They couldn't possibly be trying to fool the customer, right?

 

[MacManNM]

Ah, now we are getting somewhere, lower distortion you said, right?
How low do we need to go? .1%? .01%? .001%?

Which amps that we discuss here has audible distortion? Don't be shy.

www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7016463&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1099394773266

www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7034149&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1099395588707

Marty, your argument would state these receivers should sound the same as any 100 watt amplifier (and I'm assuming you'll agree to 1% or less thd). Why do you think they rate the wattage at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth? Why do they use 6 ohms as the benchmark instead of 8? They couldn't possibly be trying to fool the customer, right?

But they all sound the same! Right? I mean 100W/ch is 100W/ch, as long as the distortion is under........what was it? oh yeah, 1%.

Sorry, but my ears can hear 1% distortion, heck I can hear .01%. Some people actually listen to the music.

BTW:
Buck get mees un uf dem dare signya stareeos for ma dubba wide - apausum seesun iza cumin' up, en mrty isr cumin orver!



GET ER DONE!

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Alright, lets be nice. I think he get's the point.

If you truely want to know where Marty is coming from (and I know a lot of you do), grab a six of Dos Equis Amber and read this thread.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4838

 

[Privateer]

Which amps are rated at 1%-10% that we are discussing on this board?

Any amp/reciever. I would like to see it rated at the maximum wattage.

How much distortion is too much for you?

0.000000001% is to much, we are going for perfection.

My view is that seperate amps are nice toys to buy when upgradeities hits, but 99% if the time any improvement in sound quality is purely placebo.

Because everything sounds the same right?

Why do you think they rate the wattage at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth? Why do they use 6 ohms as the benchmark instead of 8? They couldn't possibly be trying to fool the customer, right?

Bingo, you are right Buckeyefan 1 these cheap cunts just do not get it or are not hearing it.

But they all sound the same! Right? I mean 100W/ch is 100W/ch, as long as the distortion is under........what was it? oh yeah, 1%.

You just do not get/hear it do you?

 

[mtrycrafts]

www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7016463&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1099394773266

www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7034149&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1099395588707

Marty, your argument would state these receivers should sound the same as any 100 watt amplifier (and I'm assuming you'll agree to 1% or less thd). Why do you think they rate the wattage at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth? Why do they use 6 ohms as the benchmark instead of 8? They couldn't possibly be trying to fool the customer, right?

Well, the first link is for a 1% THD unit. It is rather on the high side for a good design. Is this one of the amps that people discuss here normally? Or, just something you had to search really hard to find?

And, perhaps with some music 1% is masked. Also, you would need to compare under not to exceed design limits.

Why 6 ohms? Simple. Because it will not drive an 8 ohm load 100RMS. So what? If you need an amp that drives an 8 ohm load to 100 watts RMS, don't buy this one, especially is your speaker is not sensitive.
Who said these amps will meet everyones needs? You are just trying to imply that I ever said that? Don't!

 

[mtrycrafts]

But they all sound the same! Right? I mean 100W/ch is 100W/ch, as long as the distortion is under........what was it? oh yeah, 1%.

Maybe you can link to my post where I said this? Really, get your facts right, stop embarrassing yourself.

Sorry, but my ears can hear 1% distortion,

Maybe, yes, maybe no

heck I can hear .01%.

Hogwash, pure and simple. Actually, BS.

Some people actually listen to the music.

More reason your claim is BS. Music is very forgiving and masking, especially complex music. Get your facts from research, not hype, voodoo.

 

[MacManNM]

But they all sound the same! Right? I mean 100W/ch is 100W/ch, as long as the distortion is under........what was it? oh yeah, 1%.

Maybe you can link to my post where I said this? Really, get your facts right, stop embarrassing yourself.

Sorry, but my ears can hear 1% distortion,

Maybe, yes, maybe no

heck I can hear .01%.

Hogwash, pure and simple. Actually, BS.

Some people actually listen to the music.

More reason your claim is BS. Music is very forgiving and masking, especially complex music. Get your facts from research, not hype, voodoo.

Ok Tim,

It's a fact that you think all amps/equipment sound the same. As long as they are of reasonable design and operated within their limits. You have been shouting this from your soapbox, trying to get someone to agree with you for as long as I have been on this forum.

Spec sheets tell you next to nothing about equipment. That’s why people go and audition equipment. Equipment reacts differently in different situations.

For instance I bought a camera for $75K last month. It is supposed to be 12 bits. After I measured it, it turns out that it does have a 12 bit digitizer, but it is only ~9 effective bits. That’s a $75k InGaAs camera. Did the spec sheet lie? No. Does it tell the truth? No. How far do you think a company selling a lousy $1000 receiver is going to stretch the truth?

If people think they can hear a difference between components who are you to say they don’t? You either have one huge set, or are a flaming lib, those are the only people I know that are as stubborn as you.

Quit embarrassing yourself, get off of your engineering cloud and grow a clue. You deaf putz.

 

[Nick250]

Because everything sounds the same right?

Pretty much. It's room acoustics and speaker choice that really matter.

 

[Privateer]

Pretty much. It's room acoustics and speaker choice that really matter.

Damn I should have never given away my mid range sony reciever and bought all that Mcintosh equipment, but atleast you agree that speakers sound different unlike mtrycrafts who thinks everything sounds the same.

 

[mtrycrafts]

unlike mtrycrafts who thinks everything sounds the same.

I resent your silly, mindless implications. Now you are claiming to be a psychic as well???

 

[Privateer]

I resent your silly, mindless implications. Now you are claiming to be a psychic as well???

I am just pointing out the obvious.

 

[WmAx]

If people think they can hear a difference between components who are you to say they don’t? You either have one huge set, or are a flaming lib, those are the only people I know that are as stubborn as you.

I suppose this comes down to what kind of forum that you want. If people are allowed to make claims that they can not substantiate[such as amplifier audibility for properly designed amps used within their design limitations], and everyone goes along, then it would seem[to me], to be essentially a social group that exists for the primary purpose of comforting people's egos. If, however, what you want, is a forum that is a very valuable informational resource, then unsupported claims[that can result in significant misappropriation of funds, for example] can not be allowed to go unchallenged.

What kind of forum do you want?

I want a valuable informational resource. You can find already find the former[useless to find real information] forums at places like www.audioreview.com and www.audioasylum.com. Since www.audioholics.com seems to be the highest quality A/V forum around at the moment for consumers, I personally think it would be a great loss if it was to adopt the policy[treat opinion as if it was the same value as informed analysis] of the other two forums given as example.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ok Tim,

It's a fact that you think all amps/equipment sound the same. As long as they are of reasonable design and operated within their limits.

Yep, the evidence, real evidence, not urban legends, supports this. But you would not know that, Joe.




You have been shouting this from your soapbox,


You don't have a soap box?

trying to get someone to agree with you for as long as I have been on this forum.

Hey, I don't need your agreement, the evidence supports this and that is why I claim it, not my priory claim. Follow the evidence.


Spec sheets tell you next to nothing about equipment.

No, of course not. It is just there to fool the gullible tech type people. thanks for the revelations.

That’s why people go and audition equipment.

I suppose audio bs, urban legend, voodoo has nothign to do with it, not to mention human gullibility. sure, how could I have missed it in all my research?

Equipment reacts differently in different situations.

Maybe yours do, excluding speakers, of course.


For instance I bought a camera for $75K last month.

Now you think this corrollary is applicable? You should have mentioned cars, I might have fallen for those lame parallels, Joe


If people think they can hear a difference between components who are you to say they don’t?

I am a nobody, Joe. Who are you?
I suppose then when Sylvia Brown, John Edwards, et al, convince gullible people that they talk to their beloved dead who am I to tell them they are just being skammed?

But, hearing differences can be tested, or you disagree? Would it not be better to know than to speculate and not know, Joe???


You either have one huge set, or are a flaming lib, those are the only people I know that are as stubborn as you.

I just have a hard head that needs credible evidence for things, not speculations, maybe this or that, or imaginations taking over reality, or gullibility, or hype controlling. No, I try not to fall for the lates craze, th elates urban legends, wives tales, bs, etc. You???

Quit embarrassing yourself, get off of your engineering cloud and grow a clue. You deaf putz.

Hey, Joe, What did I claim for my hearing prowess? I am deaf. Does that matter what you can hear or what you imagine instead??? As to that clue, well, you would like to know, wouldn't you, Joe.

 

[MacManNM]

I suppose this comes down to what kind of forum that you want. If people are allowed to make claims that they can not substantiate[such as amplifier audibility for properly designed amps used within their design limitations], and everyone goes along, then it would seem[to me], to be essentially a social group that exists for the primary purpose of comforting people's egos. If, however, what you want, is a forum that is a very valuable informational resource, then unsupported claims[that can result in significant misappropriation of funds, for example] can not be allowed to go unchallenged.

What kind of forum do you want?

I want a valuable informational resource. You can find already find the former[useless to find real information] forums at places like www.audioreview.com and www.audioasylum.com. Since www.audioholics.com seems to be the highest quality A/V forum around at the moment for consumers, I personally think it would be a great loss if it was to adopt the policy[treat opinion as if it was the same value as informed analysis] of the other two forums given as example.

-Chris

The whole point here is that some companies do tailor the FR of their amps to give them a characteristic sound. That is not something you can tell by a spec sheet that says 20-20K +- 3db. So if there is indeed a 6db change in the FR you are going to hear it. Hence the terms, bright, warm, soft. I don’t think that is too subjective.

 

[MacManNM]

Ok Tim,

It's a fact that you think all amps/equipment sound the same. As long as they are of reasonable design and operated within their limits.

Yep, the evidence, real evidence, not urban legends, supports this. But you would not know that, Joe.




You have been shouting this from your soapbox,


You don't have a soap box?

trying to get someone to agree with you for as long as I have been on this forum.

Hey, I don't need your agreement, the evidence supports this and that is why I claim it, not my priory claim. Follow the evidence.


Spec sheets tell you next to nothing about equipment.

No, of course not. It is just there to fool the gullible tech type people. thanks for the revelations.

That’s why people go and audition equipment.

I suppose audio bs, urban legend, voodoo has nothign to do with it, not to mention human gullibility. sure, how could I have missed it in all my research?

Equipment reacts differently in different situations.

Maybe yours do, excluding speakers, of course.


For instance I bought a camera for $75K last month.

Now you think this corrollary is applicable? You should have mentioned cars, I might have fallen for those lame parallels, Joe


If people think they can hear a difference between components who are you to say they don’t?

I am a nobody, Joe. Who are you?
I suppose then when Sylvia Brown, John Edwards, et al, convince gullible people that they talk to their beloved dead who am I to tell them they are just being skammed?

But, hearing differences can be tested, or you disagree? Would it not be better to know than to speculate and not know, Joe???


You either have one huge set, or are a flaming lib, those are the only people I know that are as stubborn as you.

I just have a hard head that needs credible evidence for things, not speculations, maybe this or that, or imaginations taking over reality, or gullibility, or hype controlling. No, I try not to fall for the lates craze, th elates urban legends, wives tales, bs, etc. You???

Quit embarrassing yourself, get off of your engineering cloud and grow a clue. You deaf putz.

Hey, Joe, What did I claim for my hearing prowess? I am deaf. Does that matter what you can hear or what you imagine instead??? As to that clue, well, you would like to know, wouldn't you, Joe.

Well Tim,
If your deaf, then you have no buisness giving advice on audio matters. As for the rest of your crap I'll quote my last post:


The whole point here is that some companies do tailor the FR of their amps to give them a characteristic sound. That is not something you can tell by a spec sheet that says 20-20K +- 3db. So if there is indeed a 6db change in the FR you are going to hear it. Hence the terms, bright, warm, soft. I don’t think that is too subjective.

Do you not believe this to be true? So that fact with a possible swing of 6db, you can hear a difference between amps.

 

[Privateer]

Evidence? The only evidence there is in the audio world would be to leave your house and listen to a demo in a store. So you are telling me that a low end yamaha will sound the same as a Mcintosh 1201 if it is driven within the limits of its engineering? Here is what you do mtrycrafts go out for a demo and try 3 or 4 different amps on one set of speakers and it will become real apparent real quick that amps sound different.

 

[MacManNM]

Evidence? The only evidence there is in the audio world would be to leave your house and listen to a demo in a store. So you are telling me that a low end yamaha will sound the same as a Mcintosh 1201 if it is driven within the limits of its engineering? Here is what you do mtrycrafts go out for a demo and try 3 or 4 different amps on one set of speakers and it will become real apparent real quick that amps sound different.

Didn't you read his last post, he's as deaf as one. No point in going down this road with him.

 

[Privateer]

Hey, Joe, What did I claim for my hearing prowess? I am deaf. Does that matter what you can hear or what you imagine instead??? As to that clue, well, you would like to know, wouldn't you, Joe.

Is this for real?

 

[MacManNM]

That is what he said. From the way he talks I'd sure say he was deaf.

"Hey, Joe, What did I claim for my hearing prowess? I am deaf. Does that matter what you can hear or what you imagine instead??? As to that clue, well, you would like to know, wouldn't you, Joe. "

I guess he likes to imagine that all amps sound identical.

 

[WmAx]

The whole point here is that some companies do tailor the FR of their amps to give them a characteristic sound.

Correct. In fact, audioholics.com recently reviewed such an amplifier.

That is not something you can tell by a spec sheet that says 20-20K +- 3db. So if there is indeed a 6db change in the FR you are going to hear it. Hence the terms, bright, warm, soft. I don’t think that is too subjective.

True. However, I was referring to unsubstantiated claims generated out of thin air, not differences that will result in real measured differences that can be correlated with perceptual research or verified in double-blinded listening tests. Due to many claims that are typically made, I strongly suspect that most people claim audible differences where none exist: that is the premise of my reply.

-Chris