Irvrobinson
Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, it's okay to wrap some dollar bills around each speaker. You can make it up in volume.
"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans"
KEW
Audioholic Overlord
C
Chu Gai
Audioholic Samurai
monkish54
Audioholic General
No slow bass...but much vibration.I'm pretty sure there's no slow bass there.
JerryLove
Audioholic Ninja
I don't think that's a natural plot. It looks manipulated.Definitely! People also need something they can relate to when it comes to illustrating something like the impedance plot of reflex tuning with the two peaks and the dip in the middle. I'm pretty sure there's no slow bass there.
A
avddreamr
Audiophyte
Can "You"....
No generally "You" cannot design better speakers....
but you can certainly build them.
But, there are exceptions....
Have your heard of Dr. Linkwitz?
(there are many other capable designers, but none with such undeniable credentials).
Equating the skill to "build" a speaker to building an ipad is one of the very few fallacious statements I have ever seen on this website.
At the lowend there are a host of compromises to be made to get a speaker at a reasonable price point and make a profit.
At the highend there are things like dealer markup, marketing, and fancy veneers, that have nothing to do with the "sound".
Every where in between there are things like WAF, so you have to make the speaker small enough to be acceptable, and it has to sound "good" while placed right up against a wall, and near every other boundary.
Yes I can't design a better speaker than most respected commercial designs,
but I can certainly build one.
No generally "You" cannot design better speakers....
but you can certainly build them.
But, there are exceptions....
Have your heard of Dr. Linkwitz?
(there are many other capable designers, but none with such undeniable credentials).
Equating the skill to "build" a speaker to building an ipad is one of the very few fallacious statements I have ever seen on this website.
At the lowend there are a host of compromises to be made to get a speaker at a reasonable price point and make a profit.
At the highend there are things like dealer markup, marketing, and fancy veneers, that have nothing to do with the "sound".
Every where in between there are things like WAF, so you have to make the speaker small enough to be acceptable, and it has to sound "good" while placed right up against a wall, and near every other boundary.
Yes I can't design a better speaker than most respected commercial designs,
but I can certainly build one.
AcuDefTechGuy
Audioholic Jedi
You could build a speaker that may sound as good (and for less money), but I don't think "better".
I think my Orion 3.2.1 (built by Siegfried Linkwitz/Don Naples/Don Barringer) sound as good as any speakers out there, but I don't think better.
I think my Orion 3.2.1 (built by Siegfried Linkwitz/Don Naples/Don Barringer) sound as good as any speakers out there, but I don't think better.
haraldo
Audioholic Warlord
The thought that a DIY'er can equal the best commercial speakers is absurd if you ask me
Of course, someone that spend a year and a half of his free time building speakers will not admit afterwards that they are not very good.... however, one and a half year of building is less time than it took late John Dunlavy just to select proper damping material for his Dunlavy SC-IV, from what I know it took him 4 years to make the final cabinet construction in order to obtain optimal absorption and diffusion characteristics for the internals of the woofer cabinet structure.
I challenge you to make a speaker that equals the Vandersteen Model 7, this speaker contains extremely expensive Carbon, Balsa, Carbon diaphragms in a setup that's only available from the Vandersteen factory.
The speakers contain a special 7 layer carbonfibre + "secret compound" + carbon, the idea is that it's more stiff and less prone to resonances and disturbances than any other known cabinet material, it's not my words but as I believe what Mr. Vandersteen thinks of this construction.
The speakers do have a lack of distortion that is stunning, and cabinet distortion is as absent as it can be, the waterfall plot is so clean you can't even find the distortion artifacts (Unfortunately Stereophile's measurements doesn't show this due to measurement anomalies)
The subwoofer amplifiers have an inbuilt "feed-forward" correction that is so advanced it corrects for 99% of all distortion artifacts before they happen because all the known distortion issues are known by amplifier circuits so better to correct for this before it happens, rather than afterwards, like servo circuits do.
It took Richard Vandersteen a lifetime to get to the point where he could make the drivers, cabinets, crossovers and everything else so it can get to this performance levels.
From what I read, the Vandersteen 7's are by far the best speakers Robert Harley ever had in his home....
The thought that a clever DIY'er can get to this level is absurd.
Prove me wrong, Build the speakers and send them for review, I will change my opinion to this when I read a review in Sterophile, Absolute Sound or Audioholics.
I look forward to read the review of your speakers, better spend the energy building class leading speakers than to tell how clever you are
Some of you are probably ready to fire your guns already by now
Of course, someone that spend a year and a half of his free time building speakers will not admit afterwards that they are not very good.... however, one and a half year of building is less time than it took late John Dunlavy just to select proper damping material for his Dunlavy SC-IV, from what I know it took him 4 years to make the final cabinet construction in order to obtain optimal absorption and diffusion characteristics for the internals of the woofer cabinet structure.
I challenge you to make a speaker that equals the Vandersteen Model 7, this speaker contains extremely expensive Carbon, Balsa, Carbon diaphragms in a setup that's only available from the Vandersteen factory.
The speakers contain a special 7 layer carbonfibre + "secret compound" + carbon, the idea is that it's more stiff and less prone to resonances and disturbances than any other known cabinet material, it's not my words but as I believe what Mr. Vandersteen thinks of this construction.
The speakers do have a lack of distortion that is stunning, and cabinet distortion is as absent as it can be, the waterfall plot is so clean you can't even find the distortion artifacts (Unfortunately Stereophile's measurements doesn't show this due to measurement anomalies)
The subwoofer amplifiers have an inbuilt "feed-forward" correction that is so advanced it corrects for 99% of all distortion artifacts before they happen because all the known distortion issues are known by amplifier circuits so better to correct for this before it happens, rather than afterwards, like servo circuits do.
It took Richard Vandersteen a lifetime to get to the point where he could make the drivers, cabinets, crossovers and everything else so it can get to this performance levels.
From what I read, the Vandersteen 7's are by far the best speakers Robert Harley ever had in his home....
The thought that a clever DIY'er can get to this level is absurd.
Prove me wrong, Build the speakers and send them for review, I will change my opinion to this when I read a review in Sterophile, Absolute Sound or Audioholics.
I look forward to read the review of your speakers, better spend the energy building class leading speakers than to tell how clever you are
Some of you are probably ready to fire your guns already by now
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jinjuku
Moderator
The title of the editorial said:
[h=1]DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?[/h]
not
[h=1]DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than What Haraldo considers the absolute best Professional Designs?[/h]
There are DIY'ers out there with concrete + constrained layer cabinets if you want to talk about cabinet resonance. Then there are DIY'ers that hate almost any closed boxed alignment and love open baffle and wouldn't care for the Vandersteens.
I don't think it's absurd that the Avid DIYer can do what you think the Vandersteens do. Take a look at Digital Look Ahead Tracking (which is what you are actually speaking about on the bass side of things) this is readily available to the hobbyist. Rorbert Harley certainly didn't invent it. He borrowed.
[h=1]DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?[/h]
not
[h=1]DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than What Haraldo considers the absolute best Professional Designs?[/h]
There are DIY'ers out there with concrete + constrained layer cabinets if you want to talk about cabinet resonance. Then there are DIY'ers that hate almost any closed boxed alignment and love open baffle and wouldn't care for the Vandersteens.
I don't think it's absurd that the Avid DIYer can do what you think the Vandersteens do. Take a look at Digital Look Ahead Tracking (which is what you are actually speaking about on the bass side of things) this is readily available to the hobbyist. Rorbert Harley certainly didn't invent it. He borrowed.
haraldo
Audioholic Warlord
I know we will never agree, and you probably hate my guts already
I respect your opinion, and that you do have another opinion than me
But I don't respect your way of discussing, when you run out of arguments you proceede by verbally attacking anyone that has another opinion than you.... not very goal oriented I would claim.
But I will just not buy these arguments..... whatever you say
I think you are misleading people here by tricking them to believe that anyone can make good speakers buying a pair of good off-the shelf drivers and make a cabinet and make a hell of a lot of compensation with a Behringer Ultracurve, well it's incredibly difficult with hundreds of known and unknown parameters that must match for speakers to be performing well, most of these you can't correct for in the digital domain with a Behringer Ultracurve.....
This is much more difficult than what you're indicating this to be.....
Why do you think late John Dunlavy and Richard Vandersteen all evaluated digital correction and also digital crossovers, but they rejected it, because they could do much better they way they designed the speakers, none of them believed the digital solutions to be up to speed compared to what they could do passively....
16 Years after reviewing them the Dunlav SC-VI are still Steven Stones references, and he suggests that noone will ever build better speakers, they will be his references till he passes away or till he must go to a smaller house.... Do you suggest that DIY'ers here can do the same speakers, no chance!!!!
You can't compare DIY CLD with what's in the Vandersteen 7, it's probably like comparing a DIY rocket to a Saturn 5.
There are people that make rockets at home, do you suggest that they can challenge NASA, do you think they can make rockets that can carry the payload equal to a Boeing 737 to a lunar orbit?
If you want to talk about open baffle designs? can a DIY'er better the Steinway Lyngdorf designs?
No chance if you ask me, but it's easy to prove me wrong
What about those that like horn designs, can a DIY equal anything made by Avantgarde, no chance
What if you like Electrostatics, can a DIY'er equal what Martin Logan does, no chance
If someone in here builds something better than Vandersteen Seven for same or less cost.... I will change my opinion
If you're so sure of yourself why don't you send your statement speakers to Gene or to Michael Fremer and have them measured by John Atkinson?
So the speakers mentioned above are professional designs, is this not what this thread is about or should we only discuss lower end professional designs
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jinjuku
Moderator
The difference being my response to you wasn't out of line. The title of the thread makes zero distinction about price, manufacturer, or model. There are plenty of DIY designs that will do better than: Polk, PSB, Paradigm, Jamo, Boston Acoustics, Atlantic Technology, B&W, Vandersteen, KEF, etc...I know we will never agree, and you probably hate my guts already
I respect your opinion, and that you do have another opinion than me
But I don't respect your way of discussing, when you run out of arguments you proceede by verbally attacking anyone that has another opinion than you.... not very goal oriented I would claim.
But I will just not buy these arguments..... whatever you say
I think you are misleading people here by tricking them to believe that anyone can make good speakers buying a pair of good off-the shelf drivers and make a cabinet and make a hell of a lot of compensation with a Behringer Ultracurve, well it's incredibly difficult with hundreds of known and unknown parameters that must match for speakers to be performing well, most of these you can't correct for in the digital domain with a Behringer Ultracurve.....
This is much more difficult than what you're indicating this to be.....
Why do you think late John Dunlavy and Richard Vandersteen all evaluated digital correction and also digital crossovers, but they rejected it, because they could do much better they way they designed the speakers, none of them believed the digital solutions to be up to speed compared to what they could do passively....
16 Years after reviewing them the Dunlav SC-VI are still Steven Stones references, and he suggests that noone will ever build better speakers, they will be his references till he passes away or till he must go to a smaller house.... Do you suggest that DIY'ers here can do the same speakers, no chance!!!!
You can't compare DIY CLD with what's in the Vandersteen 7, it's probably like comparing a DIY rocket to a Saturn 5.
There are people that make rockets at home, do you suggest that they can challenge NASA, do you think they can make rockets that can carry the payload equal to a Boeing 737 to a lunar orbit?
If you want to talk about open baffle designs? can a DIY'er better the Steinway Lyngdorf designs?
No chance if you ask me, but it's easy to prove me wrong
What about those that like horn designs, can a DIY equal anything made by Avantgarde, no chance
What if you like Electrostatics, can a DIY'er equal what Martin Logan does, no chance
If someone in here builds something better than Vandersteen Seven for same or less cost.... I will change my opinion
If you're so sure of yourself why don't you send your statement speakers to Gene or to Michael Fremer and have them measured by John Atkinson?
So the speakers mentioned above are professional designs, is this not what this thread is about or should we only discuss lower end professional designs
My viewpoint is you are debating a non-existent thread title.
Everyone can find examples. I forget the name of amplifier company that uses a pair of Statements for their reference speaker in their show room. I'm sure with the industry connections they could have many a speaker representing their amplifier line.
Please no transference of emotion. Obviously I don't agree with you due the obviousness of subjectivity.
As far as your example I don't see why someone, a DIY'er couldn't make an equivalent speaker.
haraldo
Audioholic Warlord
Why don't they do this then?
Or is this just about talks?
Show me the DIY design that can equal or better KEF Blade?, as you mention KEF
I just don't think any DIY'er with DIY'er resources can do this.......
You constantly say that DIY'er can easily surpass high level designs... but when it comes to examples, you show nothing and prove nothing......
jinjuku
Moderator
It would be appreciated if you didn't put words in my mouth BTW.I know we will never agree, and you probably hate my guts already
I respect your opinion, and that you do have another opinion than me
But I don't respect your way of discussing, when you run out of arguments you proceede by verbally attacking anyone that has another opinion than you.... not very goal oriented I would claim.
But I will just not buy these arguments..... whatever you say
I think you are misleading people here by tricking them to believe that anyone can make good speakers buying a pair of good off-the shelf drivers and make a cabinet and make a hell of a lot of compensation with a Behringer Ultracurve, well it's incredibly difficult with hundreds of known and unknown parameters that must match for speakers to be performing well, most of these you can't correct for in the digital domain with a Behringer Ultracurve.....
If you want to know what upsets me it would be publicly accusing a member here that they are intentionally misleading other posters. And then go on to post how I, or another member, is misleading them in detail. And then when you are asked to backup what someone just used the quote feature to highlight what you said, and you don't. Yes that could upset me or any one with such an unfounded and seeming outright lie aimed at them.
But that just may be me....
That takes some brass ones.
haraldo
Audioholic Warlord
I am sorry if I upset you, that's not intended....It would be appreciated if you didn't put words in my mouth BTW.
If you want to know what upsets me it would be publicly accusing a member here that they are intentionally misleading other posters. And then go on to post how I, or another member, is misleading them in detail. And then when you are asked to backup what someone just used the quote feature to highlight what you said, and you don't. Yes that could upset me or any one with such an unfounded and seeming outright lie aimed at them.
But that just may be me....
That takes some brass ones.
I just think that you're making it sound very easy to make high level DIY speakers, well it's not
jinjuku
Moderator
Who said there isn't? Do you know all the DIY speakers out there? All I know is comparing my Statements to the Aerial Acoustics Model 9 the Statements acquitted themselves rather nicely. Better soundstage and more dynamic.
When I have $5-$7K to spend on drivers, amps, active management then I will move up the food chain.
When I have $5-$7K to spend on drivers, amps, active management then I will move up the food chain.
jinjuku
Moderator
There you go again with putting words in my mouth. I would appreciate it if you would go and find where I said anything like what you are saying I said or redact the posts.
Yes, having someone tell you that you are saying stuff, when in fact they haven't, can be upsetting. No one likes libel.
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jinjuku
Moderator
From what I have read I would put Wolf's Attitudes plus a quality pair of DIY subs up against anything in the $30K and under club.
AcuDefTechGuy
Audioholic Jedi
I don't see any DIY speakers that EXCEED the SQ level of the Salon2, KEF 207/2 & Blade, TAD R1 & E1. They might come close to the SQ though.
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haraldo
Audioholic Warlord
Silence is king
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haraldo
Audioholic Warlord
Well, it takes an awful lot of time and effort to get anywhere close, this time and effort is better served working doing what you're expert atI don't see any DIY speakers that EXCEED the SQ level of the Salon2, KEF 207/2 & Blade, TAD R1 & E1. They might come close, though.
I don't say people should not build their own speakers, but they should not expect to make Salon2 lookalikes and get same SQ, expecting that is to fool yourself......
Salon2's, KEF's and TAD's are optimized in anechoic rooms, I believe, how many DIY'ers do have access to this
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