DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[Dennis Murphy]

It's a complex recipe; and neither side comes out on top in all cases.

Aptly stated. And as for ID pricing, only an idiot economist like me would come up with my margins. If I really had to meet a payroll, or depend upon Philharmonic for a living (you taxpayers are footing the bill on that--thanks for the government pension!), I obviously would have to raise my prices or find another career. As for Jim Salk, if you saw the amount of labor that goes into am SS12, and charged it out at a decent shop rate, you would easily understand the pricing. And those of you who expect mirror-perfect high gloss finishes for not much cash, just be thankful that a certain cabinet maker in Virginia was willing to do some charity work for you in the past. Finally, I just don't have off-axis measurements for the SS12 saved. There's nothing to
hide--the RAAL crosses over to the small Accuton mid at 1900 Hz, where there would not be a sharp discontinuity in the power response, and the Accuton hands over to the woofer well below the woofer's beaming point. The power-response was very difficult to simulate because of the odd-shaped baffle, so I can't provide reliable simulations. I'll check my e-mails to Jim to see whether I preserved any off-axis plots I may have sent him. But I doubt that they would be very complete in any event. As I recall, the off-axis performance is very similar to the Philharmonic 3.

 

[Nuance AH]

Aptly stated. And as for ID pricing, only an idiot economist like me would come up with my margins. If I really had to meet a payroll, or depend upon Philharmonic for a living (you taxpayers are footing the bill on that--thanks for the government pension!), I obviously would have to raise my prices or find another career. As for Jim Salk, if you saw the amount of labor that goes into am SS12, and charged it out at a decent shop rate, you would easily understand the pricing. And those of you who expect mirror-perfect high gloss finishes for not much cash, just be thankful that a certain cabinet maker in Virginia was willing to do some charity work for you in the past. Finally, I just don't have off-axis measurements for the SS12 saved. There's nothing to
hide--the RAAL crosses over to the small Accuton mid at 1900 Hz, where there would not be a sharp discontinuity in the power response, and the Accuton hands over to the woofer well below the woofer's beaming point. The power-response was very difficult to simulate because of the odd-shaped baffle, so I can't provide reliable simulations. I'll check my e-mails to Jim to see whether I preserved any off-axis plots I may have sent him. But I doubt that they would be very complete in any event. As I recall, the off-axis performance is very similar to the Philharmonic 3.

Dennis, I posted the SS12 plots a post before yours; just happened to have them saved. Would you confirm those are the correct ones? Thanks.

 

[monkish54]

The RAAL crosses over to the small Accuton mid at 1900 Hz

At 1900hz a 7" mid would be throwing ~90 degree pattern. A 4" at this frequency is likely very wide, much like the RAAL.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Well what do you know: I found the E-mail with the SoundScape measurements. I also posted these plots in the Salk Sound thread over AVS a couple years ago when the speakers were first released. I only have the 15 and 30 degree plots, but you get the idea.

Impedance:

On-Axis:

15 Degrees:

30 Degrees:

I don't expect you to believe these are actually the SS12 measurements, so you can confirm with Jim and Dennis that they are. I wish he'd just put them on his website.

Hi Good detective work. Those are the 12's, although the crossover has been tweaked a little due to changes in the woofer parameters over the years. Thanks!

 

[Nuance AH]

Hi Good detective work. Those are the 12's, although the crossover has been tweaked a little due to changes in the woofer parameters over the years. Thanks!

No, thank you. Happy New Year!

 

[panteragstk]

You are talking about 56" speakers. Mine weigh in at 130 lbs / per. It really is a two person job to manage that size of cut and it helps with assembly.

I figured that was it. I have a table saw, but wifey isn't quite strong enough to hold a 4'x8'x3/4" straight for me to guide it through and get a nice straight cut. I may buy (or make) a track for my circular saw and make the big cuts that way.

Sorry for the off topic post. Carry on.

 

[ratso]

alright, kinda late for this, but does anyone have a link for the custom sub build at avs mentioned on i believe page 3 of this thread?

 

[Nestor]

alright, kinda late for this, but does anyone have a link for the custom sub build at avs mentioned on i believe page 3 of this thread?

Is it this one?

 

[Swerd]

I figured that was it. I have a table saw, but wifey isn't quite strong enough to hold a 4'x8'x3/4" straight for me to guide it through and get a nice straight cut. I may buy (or make) a track for my circular saw and make the big cuts that way.

When I buy a sheet of MDF, I get Lowes' to make the first cuts on their panel saw. For example, if I need 12" wide boards, I have them cut the 4'×8' sheet into 12¼" wide × 4' long pieces. That way I can carry it home in my car, and more easily make all the final cuts I need at home.

At first I used to tell the guy I really wanted these cuts done correctly while offering him $20 if he did a good job. They always refused the tip saying it was their job to do it right. This always worked well for me.

 

[Nuance AH]

Is it this one?

That looks like the one. Here it is in-room without the faceplate. He must have stained it darker later on.
21" Maelstrom Curved Box Build

 

[lsiberian]

I figured that was it. I have a table saw, but wifey isn't quite strong enough to hold a 4'x8'x3/4" straight for me to guide it through and get a nice straight cut. I may buy (or make) a track for my circular saw and make the big cuts that way.

Sorry for the off topic post. Carry on.

I don't even have a table saw. I cut ply with an emerson straight edge and a circular saw it's worth the cost. If you need precision you'd need to finish it off with a router anyway unless you have a very steady blade.

 

[JerryLove]

As for the actual SS12..I don't know what the measurements look like, Salk will only post the on-axis!

I thought the piece of paper I got from the GTG had off-axis.

I can make for you on and off axis on a SCST, but that's the best I can do. Compare my on-axis to better-measured on-axis and you can get an idea for my gear's bias.

I don't know that I would ever go for a SS12. Maybe, but I actually prefer the compactness of the SS8 and have no problem pairing a sub if I'm going all HT.

 

[KEW]

I don't even have a table saw. I cut ply with an emerson straight edge and a circular saw it's worth the cost. If you need precision you'd need to finish it off with a router anyway unless you have a very steady blade.

Those clamping straight edges are cool, but I usually grab a 4' level, lay it on it's side, and clamp it to the material. Obviously, the circ saw motor can't stick out on the same side as the clamps. I can get a finish quality cut using my DeWalt circ saw and a 24 tooth diablo (freud) blade.
But if I know what I'm using it for when I buy the plywood, I do what Swerd says and get them to cut it at least once, so I don't have to manage a 4X8 sheet.

 

[lsiberian]

I thought the piece of paper I got from the GTG had off-axis.

I can make for you on and off axis on a SCST, but that's the best I can do. Compare my on-axis to better-measured on-axis and you can get an idea for my gear's bias.

I don't know that I would ever go for a SS12. Maybe, but I actually prefer the compactness of the SS8 and have no problem pairing a sub if I'm going all HT.

You gotta admit those are some strong measurement. Not that I'm surprised.

 

[JerryLove]

I don't know how an entire sub-topic has come up on Salk.
I honestly am not sure who is kidding when.

If there are people here casting stones at the Salk speakers... accusations of hiding graphs, or ridiculous pricing or something: well, those are fighting words.

I've met Jim Salk. I've heard his speakers. I've bought his speakers. He's been extremely willing to let you bring your own gear, bring our own music and let his speakers speak for themselves.

They aren't right for you? Fine? You prefer the sound or look of something else? Fine. You think something else is a better bargain? Fine. But if you are seriously disparaging Salk's gear then to me it says more about you than the equipment.

And as many of you know, I've been through a lot of high-end B&M brands as well. (and ID, and DIY).

 

[JerryLove]

You gotta admit those are some strong measurement. Not that I'm surprised.

I wrote that before I saw that someone had found and posted measurements on this thread.

They are.

 

[lsiberian]

Those clamping straight edges are cool, but I usually grab a 4' level, lay it on it's side, and clamp it to the material. Obviously, the circ saw motor can't stick out on the same side as the clamps. I can get a finish quality cut using my DeWalt circ saw and a 24 tooth diablo (freud) blade.
But if I know what I'm using it for when I buy the plywood, I do what Swerd says and get them to cut it at least once, so I don't have to manage a 4X8 sheet.

I get a high from sawing wood so I like to do my own, but I don't transport a full sheet. I can only fit 2' by 4' sheets in my car easily.

 

[KEW]

Salk and Murphy have entirely different business models and comparison for value doesn't make sense. Salk can be compared to any other ID speaker manufacturer, while Murphy is a different animal.

Salk is doing this for his livelihood. He is pricing based on maximizing his profit considering what the market will bear and what volume he hopes to sell.

Don't misconstrue this to be a slam against Salk. He is going to have to undercut other brands if he is going to sell speakers to people who have not had the experience of looking at and listening to them in person. He keeps his costs low by doing his own woodworking and assembly (as I understand it) and probably earns his dollars more than many here.
Then, there is risk - I would never have the stomach for such a speculative endeavor.

Murphy prices his speakers based on his own costs plus a small profit margin. If he needed to make a living off of them, he could have easily started out with the Phil3's at about $5000 and they would have been easily competitive.
Murphy was selling the Phil2 for the same price as Salk sold the SongTower. That does not mean the SongTower was priced unreasonably, the Phil2 is probably the best bargain of the last decade for a speaker in this price bracket.

Salk is owner/manager of a normal business and Murphy is a hobbiest gone berserk!

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Salk and Murphy have entirely different business models and comparison for value doesn't make sense.

Business? Model?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Business? Model?

Salk: Great Sound, Make money
Philharmonic: Great Sound, Lose money.