Dirac New Spatial Room Correction Software

[gene]

Some updates on Dirac Live Active Room Treatment

 

[jeffca]

Hey, I have nothing against Dirac, but, if you've seen the system they use as a demo, it has 8 independent subs. Do you have a pre/pro that will support that?

Forgoing having 8 subs, you will have to have full range speakers for all channels in your home theater. Playing stereo? You are screwed.

So the bottom line is that bass traps and room treatments are drastically cheaper than this solution. Actually, cheaper by several orders of magnitude.

Also, this system won't eliminate reflections from your ceiling, floor and walls.

 

[gene]

Hey, I have nothing against Dirac, but, if you've seen the system they use as a demo, it has 8 independent subs. Do you have a pre/pro that will support that?

Forgoing having 8 subs, you will have to have full range speakers for all channels in your home theater. Playing stereo? You are screwed.

So the bottom line is that bass traps and room treatments are drastically cheaper than this solution. Actually, cheaper by several orders of magnitude.

Also, this system won't eliminate reflections from your ceiling, floor and walls.

You don't need 8 independent subs. You can always add bass modules to each channel or use full range speakers. I see Dirac ART as a supplement to good room treatments and reduction of big bulky bass traps.

 

[jeffca]

Gene, not to get in a pissing match with you, but there are two things that their documentation shows:

• This system will not work unless you have at least 4 full range speakers (20Hz-20kHz) or independent subs
• It has no efficacy over 100Hz... I've studied their charts

I'm not positing that it doesn't work, just that, for most people, it is of no use. It's also much more expensive to instantiate than acoustic treatments. How many pre/pros have 4 independent sub outputs?

So it's either the most expensive pre/pro's made (Datasat, etc.) or you are running your system off a computer (both are very pricey). Or, forget that, and spend about $1K on acoustic treatment and be done with it.

It's nice that they've come up with it, but it's really not that big a deal for most audiophiles. Again, 4 independently controlled subs spread about the room or a surround system with full range speakers on all channels. If you do not have that this system will not work.

It's physics, not my opinion. If you don't understand that, you will have to read up on elementary acoustics.

 

[jeffca]

Not to filibuster, Gene, but there is one thing you haven't thought of... full range speakers rarely can give you performance of a sat/sub system unless they are huge.

There are very few box speakers made that can surpass what I get with my system and certainly none at the price I paid (less than $4K).

Again, this is a very expensive solution to a problem that can be solved for a fraction of the price using treatments.

My system (left side):

 

[dlaloum]

Gene, not to get in a pissing match with you, but there are two things that their documentation shows:

• This system will not work unless you have at least 4 full range speakers (20Hz-20kHz) or independent subs
• It has no efficacy over 100Hz... I've studied their charts

I'm not positing that it doesn't work, just that, for most people, it is of no use. It's also much more expensive to instantiate than acoustic treatments. How many pre/pros have 4 independent sub outputs?

So it's either the most expensive pre/pro's made (Datasat, etc.) or you are running your system off a computer (both are very pricey). Or, forget that, and spend about $1K on acoustic treatment and be done with it.

It's nice that they've come up with it, but it's really not that big a deal for most audiophiles. Again, 4 independently controlled subs spread about the room or a surround system with full range speakers on all channels. If you do not have that this system will not work.

It's physics, not my opinion. If you don't understand that, you will have to read up on elementary acoustics.

A few things to keep in mind...

DL-ART is going to try to control the reflections... the reflections are already many db down on the primary signal (which generates the reflections) - further DL-Art doesn't need to "eliminate" those reflections, just reduce their level by sufficient db to make them innoffensive ....
How many db would that take? 10db, 15db? I don't know... but a 10db difference would be sufficient to substantially improve most such situations.

When we look at speaker performance - particularly in the bass - you will find that some speakers have a steep dropof at their lower limits, and others have a relatively gentle slope... the former are typically vented designs (go lower down, but thereafter drop off very steeply) - the latter are typically acoustic suspension type designs... the bass reduction starts earlier, but they often have usable bass performance lower down than equivalent ported designs (although that usable performance could be at -6 to -10db ).

With the right speaker type, quite a few substantial bookshelf speakers, would have enough output in the bass to have impact on the room down to 50hz or below.

Even a speaker which is 10db down at 50Hz, should be able to have substantive and noticeable impact at 50Hz.

This requires a paradigm shift in thinking... - the "corrective" performance of speakers can be quite different in specification to the main signal performance.

Hence a compact sealed design like the Gallo Strada2, although according to spec limited to 68Hz - when measured, showed decent performance down to 50Hz and below, a classic vintage 80's design like the Boston A60, is down at 55Hz with -3db, but the slope is gentle... it can easily reproduce 30Hz signals within a -10db envelope.... (transmission lines can behave similarly to Acoustic Suspension types.... but would tend to be floorstanders rather than bookshelf speakers!)

So, yes full range floorstanders, with substantial bass will have an advantage - and the integration in the room will allow for LFE channel distribution as well as proper surround bass imaging - but they may have very little advantage in terms of room EQ - because room EQ may only require a very low level of output. - But the best speakers for the purpose (room EQ, reflection control) , may not be the sort of speakers you would choose as your mains... they may have extended bass output but only at a low level - which is all that is needed for that purpose!

 

[everettT]

A few things to keep in mind...

DL-ART is going to try to control the reflections... the reflections are already many db down on the primary signal (which generates the reflections) - further DL-Art doesn't need to "eliminate" those reflections, just reduce their level by sufficient db to make them innoffensive ....
How many db would that take? 10db, 15db? I don't know... but a 10db difference would be sufficient to substantially improve most such situations.

When we look at speaker performance - particularly in the bass - you will find that some speakers have a steep dropof at their lower limits, and others have a relatively gentle slope... the former are typically vented designs (go lower down, but thereafter drop off very steeply) - the latter are typically acoustic suspension type designs... the bass reduction starts earlier, but they often have usable bass performance lower down than equivalent ported designs (although that usable performance could be at -6 to -10db ).

With the right speaker type, quite a few substantial bookshelf speakers, would have enough output in the bass to have impact on the room down to 50hz or below.

Even a speaker which is 10db down at 50Hz, should be able to have substantive and noticeable impact at 50Hz.

This requires a paradigm shift in thinking... - the "corrective" performance of speakers can be quite different in specification to the main signal performance.

Hence a compact sealed design like the Gallo Strada2, although according to spec limited to 68Hz - when measured, showed decent performance down to 50Hz and below, a classic vintage 80's design like the Boston A60, is down at 55Hz with -3db, but the slope is gentle... it can easily reproduce 30Hz signals within a -10db envelope.... (transmission lines can behave similarly to Acoustic Suspension types.... but would tend to be floorstanders rather than bookshelf speakers!)

So, yes full range floorstanders, with substantial bass will have an advantage - and the integration in the room will allow for LFE channel distribution as well as proper surround bass imaging - but they may have very little advantage in terms of room EQ - because room EQ may only require a very low level of output. - But the best speakers for the purpose (room EQ, reflection control) , may not be the sort of speakers you would choose as your mains... they may have extended bass output but only at a low level - which is all that is needed for that purpose!

Plenty of speakers for sure and most anything sealed with an f3 below 60hz.

 

[gene]

Gene, not to get in a pissing match with you, but there are two things that their documentation shows:

• This system will not work unless you have at least 4 full range speakers (20Hz-20kHz) or independent subs
• It has no efficacy over 100Hz... I've studied their charts

I'm not positing that it doesn't work, just that, for most people, it is of no use. It's also much more expensive to instantiate than acoustic treatments. How many pre/pros have 4 independent sub outputs?

So it's either the most expensive pre/pro's made (Datasat, etc.) or you are running your system off a computer (both are very pricey). Or, forget that, and spend about $1K on acoustic treatment and be done with it.

It's nice that they've come up with it, but it's really not that big a deal for most audiophiles. Again, 4 independently controlled subs spread about the room or a surround system with full range speakers on all channels. If you do not have that this system will not work.

It's physics, not my opinion. If you don't understand that, you will have to read up on elementary acoustics.

Wow you come off very aggressive and sure of yourself. Of course the best use of ART would be with 4 subs and all fullrange speakers and of course not everyone will have that. But you dismiss the new system as useless otherwise is obtuse especially since nobody has 3rd party tested the efficacy of scalability. We will better understand this soon enough so try not to judge before the jury is out and work on the demeanor of your posts while you wait

 

[dlaloum]

Any word on the formal review of ART? (now that the gates have been officially opened)

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Any word on the formal review of ART? (now that the gates have been officially opened)

We got really delayed in getting that going. It's coming. We are working on it this week.