Dirac New Spatial Room Correction Software

[dlaloum]

Flak has dropped a few hints in other forums that there will be annoncements from Dirac at CES ... 5th Jan 2023.

Interestingly this was mentioned in an AVR thread - so I have some hope, that we will see new functionality released on AVR's rather than as a PC software app... (much as I love my HTPC, using it as the integration hub is simply not really viable IMO... - so the RoomEQ has to live in the AVR/AVP).

Will this be SRC? ... I live in hope that SRC will be released on the long awaited Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer flagship AVR's.... which might bring it into a market segment I can afford. (the hint was dropped in a Pioneer LX705/905 thread)

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Unfortunately those of us who know the answers cannot tell you. All will be revealed soon enough.

 

[TLS Guy]

Flak has dropped a few hints in other forums that there will be annoncements from Dirac at CES ... 5th Jan 2023.

Interestingly this was mentioned in an AVR thread - so I have some hope, that we will see new functionality released on AVR's rather than as a PC software app... (much as I love my HTPC, using it as the integration hub is simply not really viable IMO... - so the RoomEQ has to live in the AVR/AVP).

Will this be SRC? ... I live in hope that SRC will be released on the long awaited Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer flagship AVR's.... which might bring it into a market segment I can afford. (the hint was dropped in a Pioneer LX705/905 thread)

If you don't need so called room correction then it is irrelevant.

 

[dlaloum]

If you don't need so called room correction then it is irrelevant.

If wishes were fishes...

 

[dlaloum]

Unfortunately those of us who know the answers cannot tell you. All will be revealed soon enough.

Yeah, I know... (grumble, grouch, harumph....)

January 5....

 

[TLS Guy]

If wishes were fishes...

Room curve at MLP all speakers driven. Look at the impulse response and note exact timing of all speakers at the MLP which is center chair of middle row of three rows. It is a nine seat theater.

There is a little room gain below 30 Hz but it is not unpleasant. No Eq used. AVP is Marantz 7705 with Audyssey totally disengaged and no Eq. used.

Sure the odd room is a real dud, but a lot in fact most are not. Most of the problems are caused from speaker problems and their shortcomings interacting with the room to compound the problems.

Many have noted that superb speakers do not usually interact negatively in most rooms. If that were not so, then peoples voices would sound different in every room and generally they do not. I have not used Dirac, but have used Audyssey in at least four rooms, and in every case audio quality was significantly downgraded.

I can tell you I have no desire or need to spend money on a unit with Dirac live. Everything has been precisely balanced and now needs leaving alone, which it has been for the last three years.

 

[dlaloum]

Room curve at MLP all speakers driven. Look at the impulse response and note exact timing of all speakers at the MLP which is center chair of middle row of three rows. It is a nine seat theater.

There is a little room gain below 30 Hz but it is not unpleasant. No Eq used. AVP is Marantz 7705 with Audyssey totally disengaged and no Eq. used.

Sure the odd room is a real dud, but a lot in fact most are not. Most of the problems are caused from speaker problems and their shortcomings interacting with the room to compound the problems.

Many have noted that superb speakers do not usually interact negatively in most rooms. If that were not so, then peoples voices would sound different in every room and generally they do not. I have not used Dirac, but have used Audyssey in at least four rooms, and in every case audio quality was significantly downgraded.

I can tell you I have no desire or need to spend money on a unit with Dirac live. Everything has been precisely balanced and now needs leaving alone, which it has been for the last three years.

My own experience with Audyssey matches yours, the setup always sounded better with it turned off.

However this was not the case with Dirac (which I first installed in March this year) - I initially compared my old AVR (without Audyssey running), to the new AVR - noted sound degradation... - put my external amps in the circuit on the new AVR... and noted that the sound was to all intents and purposes identical to the old one... as it should be! (the old Onkyo/Integra was a beast capable of 165W@8ohm into stereo - and handled my difficult 1.65ohm speakers well ... not the case with the weanie lightweight Integra 3.4 I have now)

Enabled Dirac and did a quick tuning with it (3 positions measured, centered on MLP) - and immediately noted an improvement in midrange clarity, vocals....

Went back and forth a little bit to confirm - and then decommissioned the old unit (and sold it... went to a new home).

So yes - I do find that Dirac has made a positive difference to the subjective experience of listening to my system.

At some point, when I have the house to myself, and the appropriate inclination, I may run a full suite of measurements and see where things are at, using something more than just my ears.

But for now, I am very happy with what my ears are telling me, about Dirac - and therefore looking forward to what the new SRC could potentially bring to the table.

It is worth keeping in mind that SRC is a whole different ball game - it is a paradigm shift in what one can do within a listening room.... in theory.

Whether the practice actually matches the theory is yet to be seen.

And it well may be that getting the best from such a system, would require specific types of speakers... it may work better with highly directive speakers as opposed to wide dispersion types, it is likely to work best with multiple full range speakers, rather than the current norm of running bookshelves/satellites around the room.

If it works as advertised (which as I said, is yet to be seen/heard) - then it could quite dramatically change the HT marketplace... including those of us that use our HT as a dual purpose music/HT setup.

But I reiterate - where previously, with Audyssey the system sounded best with it off, Dirac now never gets turned off.

 

[TLS Guy]

My own experience with Audyssey matches yours, the setup always sounded better with it turned off.

However this was not the case with Dirac (which I first installed in March this year) - I initially compared my old AVR (without Audyssey running), to the new AVR - noted sound degradation... - put my external amps in the circuit on the new AVR... and noted that the sound was to all intents and purposes identical to the old one... as it should be! (the old Onkyo/Integra was a beast capable of 165W@8ohm into stereo - and handled my difficult 1.65ohm speakers well ... not the case with the weanie lightweight Integra 3.4 I have now)

Enabled Dirac and did a quick tuning with it (3 positions measured, centered on MLP) - and immediately noted an improvement in midrange clarity, vocals....

Went back and forth a little bit to confirm - and then decommissioned the old unit (and sold it... went to a new home).

So yes - I do find that Dirac has made a positive difference to the subjective experience of listening to my system.

At some point, when I have the house to myself, and the appropriate inclination, I may run a full suite of measurements and see where things are at, using something more than just my ears.

But for now, I am very happy with what my ears are telling me, about Dirac - and therefore looking forward to what the new SRC could potentially bring to the table.

It is worth keeping in mind that SRC is a whole different ball game - it is a paradigm shift in what one can do within a listening room.... in theory.

Whether the practice actually matches the theory is yet to be seen.

And it well may be that getting the best from such a system, would require specific types of speakers... it may work better with highly directive speakers as opposed to wide dispersion types, it is likely to work best with multiple full range speakers, rather than the current norm of running bookshelves/satellites around the room.

If it works as advertised (which as I said, is yet to be seen/heard) - then it could quite dramatically change the HT marketplace... including those of us that use our HT as a dual purpose music/HT setup.

But I reiterate - where previously, with Audyssey the system sounded best with it off, Dirac now never gets turned off.

Yes, I agree in theory that Dirac should be an improvement over Audyssey, however my rig sounds incredibly realistic with good spatial imaging and what is unusual in reproduced sound, a deep sonic stage depth. So I would not be eager to change anything.

I would be curious as to what speakers have an impedance of 1.65 ohms! That strongly suggests to me that the crossover is actually in resonance, which is a real "howler" of a design error. I have to say that has, and does occur, in a number of high priced exotic speakers. When you see this serious design error it is nearly always in a speaker well towards the top end of the price scale.

 

[dlaloum]

Yes, I agree in theory that Dirac should be an improvement over Audyssey, however my rig sounds incredibly realistic with good spatial imaging and what is unusual in reproduced sound, a deep sonic stage depth. So I would not be eager to change anything.

I would be curious as to what speakers have an impedance of 1.65 ohms! That strongly suggests to me that the crossover is actually in resonance, which is a real "howler" of a design error. I have to say that has, and does occur, in a number of high priced exotic speakers. When you see this serious design error it is nearly always in a speaker well towards the top end of the price scale.

There is no crossover as such between tweeter and midrange - just a capacitor, and a tweeter design which is itself inherently capacitive....

You can look up the Gallo CDT tweeter .... it uses Piezo technology, and was inspired by the Linaeum tweeter

At the Bass end, the speakers drop down to 3 ohm, which is low, but most amps will handle without complaint

Amps that are unhappy with the tweeter impedance, tend to mess up the midrange, vocals, imaging - so you don't necessarily need huge current/power to make it sound good, but you do need an amp that remains stable and unfussed by feeding a near short circuit impedance.

Martin Logan, Acoustat and a few other electrostatic speakers (Soundlab?) have similar impedance profiles. (and similarly require robust amps)

Many users of such speakers have ended up with killowatt capable amps, simply to provide the required stability for the few watts that we use in our domestic environments.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is no crossover as such between tweeter and midrange - just a capacitor, and a tweeter design which is itself inherently capacitive....

You can look up the Gallo CDT tweeter .... it uses Piezo technology, and was inspired by the Linaeum tweeter

At the Bass end, the speakers drop down to 3 ohm, which is low, but most amps will handle without complaint

Amps that are unhappy with the tweeter impedance, tend to mess up the midrange, vocals, imaging - so you don't necessarily need huge current/power to make it sound good, but you do need an amp that remains stable and unfussed by feeding a near short circuit impedance.

Martin Logan, Acoustat and a few other electrostatic speakers (Soundlab?) have similar impedance profiles. (and similarly require robust amps)

Many users of such speakers have ended up with killowatt capable amps, simply to provide the required stability for the few watts that we use in our domestic environments.

There is a huge difference between a 3 ohm and a 1.65 ohm load, almost 100%. A 1.65 ohm load what not be good under any circumstances.

As far as piezo tweeters are concerned they present a reactive load where the voltage lags current whereas in inductive loads voltage leads current. Piezo type tweeters are very high impedance, so no capacitor is mandatory. However, when I have deployed them I do use a series capacitor, because distortion becomes high towards the lower end of the bandwidth of the device. So I assume there is some type of band pass crossover to the midrange driver. Is that correct?

Reactive/capacitative loads can cause some amps to go into suprasonic oscillation and self destruct, especially tube amps.

So are you using a Gallo system with his MTM using small mids and the Piezo between them and a Gallo sub?

I have to say I'm not a fan of Gallo's designs.

 

[dlaloum]

There is a huge difference between a 3 ohm and a 1.65 ohm load, almost 100%. A 1.65 ohm load what not be good under any circumstances.

As far as piezo tweeters are concerned they present a reactive load where the voltage lags current whereas in inductive loads voltage leads current. Piezo type tweeters are very high impedance, so no capacitor is mandatory. However, when I have deployed them I do use a series capacitor, because distortion becomes high towards the lower end of the bandwidth of the device. So I assume there is some type of band pass crossover to the midrange driver. Is that correct?

Reactive/capacitative loads can cause some amps to go into suprasonic oscillation and self destruct, especially tube amps.

So are you using a Gallo system with his MTM using small mids and the Piezo between them and a Gallo sub?

I have to say I'm not a fan of Gallo's designs.

I have the full range version of the current Strada's - discontinued when Anthony Gallo sold the business... - so the speakers have a 10" woofer.

The center is part of the AG reference AV series (also discontinued at the same time) which is a close relative of the current MTM speakers, but as a MMTMM format - although the outside drivers appear to be tuned for lower FR so perhaps more of a WMTMW configuration.

I had no opinion on the Gallo's... saw some reviews, but was not shopping for speakers.... then I walked past a set playing in a demo.... they surprised me - and I then researched them further before purchasing.

I suggest having a listen before allowing preconceptions to dominate.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have the full range version of the current Strada's - discontinued when Anthony Gallo sold the business... - so the speakers have a 10" woofer.

The center is part of the AG reference AV series (also discontinued at the same time) which is a close relative of the current MTM speakers, but as a MMTMM format - although the outside drivers appear to be tuned for lower FR so perhaps more of a WMTMW configuration.

I had no opinion on the Gallo's... saw some reviews, but was not shopping for speakers.... then I walked past a set playing in a demo.... they surprised me - and I then researched them further before purchasing.

I suggest having a listen before allowing preconceptions to dominate.

Well it is good to know what speakers we are talking about. The mids and tweeter as you say are not crossed over electrically, but acoustically.

The satellites are driven from the 10" cylindrical sub, which contains the high pass crossover for the satellites. One or two subs can be used.

The tweeter is piezo and is a reactive load. I would think most solid state amps would not have a problem with that, but some tube amps would.

There is something not good happening at 120 Hz, there is a sudden drop in impedance with a strongly negative phase angle. This is associated with a drop in output. The reviewer put the drop in output down to a room affect, but I do not buy that. Something bad is happening electrically which a large number of amps would object to. This picture has the classic stamp of an electrical resonance.

Unfortunately something is preventing showing the graphs here. In the main the FR is good across the mid band, but there is a sharp rise in response of 8 to 10 db. at 7KHz.

So that is far from the worst FR around, but certainly not the best.

 

[dlaloum]

Well it is good to know what speakers we are talking about. The mids and tweeter as you say are not crossed over electrically, but acoustically.

The satellites are driven from the 10" cylindrical sub, which contains the high pass crossover for the satellites. One or two subs can be used.

The tweeter is piezo and is a reactive load. I would think most solid state amps would not have a problem with that, but some tube amps would.

There is something not good happening at 120 Hz, there is a sudden drop in impedance with a strongly negative phase angle. This is associated with a drop in output. The reviewer put the drop in output down to a room affect, but I do not buy that. Something bad is happening electrically which a large number of amps would object to. This picture has the classic stamp of an electrical resonance.

Unfortunately something is preventing showing the graphs here. In the main the FR is good across the mid band, but there is a sharp rise in response of 8 to 10 db. at 7KHz.

So that is far from the worst FR around, but certainly not the best.

For the bass. the woofer on the mains also has a 2nd voice coil, with no crossover on that voice coil - so you can drive it directly, and high pass the main signal to the speaker... so nothing goes to the first voice coil.

I have experimented several times with biamping on these - but given a sufficiently powerful amp, the benefits from biamping appear to be negligible to non-existent. AG himself in the latter years of the series, demoed them at audio shows with a single Spectron Musician 500W@8ohm amp.... whereas in the earlier years he used his in house subwoofer amp to drive the woofer and a variety of amps to drive the rest of the speaker.

Still - they "sound" like electrostatics with bass - this might be as much about not having the "box" sound - the parsitic resonances of the box, as about what it does right....

 

[TLS Guy]

For the bass. the woofer on the mains also has a 2nd voice coil, with no crossover on that voice coil - so you can drive it directly, and high pass the main signal to the speaker... so nothing goes to the first voice coil.

I have experimented several times with biamping on these - but given a sufficiently powerful amp, the benefits from biamping appear to be negligible to non-existent. AG himself in the latter years of the series, demoed them at audio shows with a single Spectron Musician 500W@8ohm amp.... whereas in the earlier years he used his in house subwoofer amp to drive the woofer and a variety of amps to drive the rest of the speaker.

Still - they "sound" like electrostatics with bass - this might be as much about not having the "box" sound - the parsitic resonances of the box, as about what it does right....

Well speakers don't have to ring like a drum. In any event, the sub is a box in that system, and operating in the range where these sort of problems you mention arise.

Even sealed subs are not non resonant. In fact the box resonance in a sealed design is harder to control than even ported designs.

There are few designs that can claim to be able to deliver non resonant, or aperiodic reproduction. One is infinite baffle, which is hard to implement, as it requires a space the size of a room behind the driver. Another is open baffle but this introduces all sorts of response irregularities requiring active equalization. Lastly there is the aperiodically damped transmission line, which properly implemented can deliver deep non resonant bass. The problem with the latter is that the enclosures are large, if you want extension to the last octave, and drivers have to be selected with great care.

Triamped dual TL.

Aesthetically placing speakers like that is a challenge.

Center is a through wall TL, which helps disguise the size.

So it all comes down to how you want to take your poison in the end!

 

[dlaloum]

Yes - I always liked the concept of the TL's... but I already had to sacrifice my Quad stats for domestic harmony... so finding a solution that was acceptable to my ears, and also acceptable in our houshold, ultimately led me to these.

Given enough space, (and domestic approval!) - I would go back to an all "stats" setup (+ subs)

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes - I always liked the concept of the TL's... but I already had to sacrifice my Quad stats for domestic harmony... so finding a solution that was acceptable to my ears, and also acceptable in our houshold, ultimately led me to these.

Given enough space, (and domestic approval!) - I would go back to an all "stats" setup (+ subs)

You have my sympathy. It must have been really hard to part with those Quad electrostatics. Peter Walker I counted as a friend and mentor. His main intent was to develop a speaker with minimal colorations, and he succeeded. The speakers were limited in spl. and low frequency extension and required draconian protection to prevent destruction, but they remain a definite benchmark for the rest of us. I have had visitors here ask if my speakers have electrostatic panels which they do not, but I take that as a complement.

Getting back to the Stradas. I have been thinking about that abrupt rise and ragged output above 7K. I think it was a mistake not to cut those drivers off. I strongly suspect that rise, is the break up modes of those cones from being driven too high. That is where you would expect cones of that size to exhibit break up modes, and I would bet money that that is the reason for that response aberration. I think that more likely than not, those speakers could be improved with a modification.

 

[dlaloum]

You have my sympathy. It must have been really hard to part with those Quad electrostatics. Peter Walker I counted as a friend and mentor. His main intent was to develop a speaker with minimal colorations, and he succeeded. The speakers were limited in spl. and low frequency extension and required draconian protection to prevent destruction, but they remain a definite benchmark for the rest of us. I have had visitors here ask if my speakers have electrostatic panels which they do not, but I take that as a complement.

Getting back to the Stradas. I have been thinking about that abrupt rise and ragged output above 7K. I think it was a mistake not to cut those drivers off. I strongly suspect that rise, is the break up modes of those cones from being driven too high. That is where you would expect cones of that size to exhibit break up modes, and I would bet money that that is the reason for that response aberration. I think that more likely than not, those speakers could be improved with a modification.

The spec says "up to 35kHz"....

I do have a calibration mic, and at some point I will measure them...

 

[cpp]

My position on this is, tell everyone to try it for themselves just like everything else in life

Correct, in so many ways.

 

[Danzilla31]

So in looking at the information it sounds like you need some serious or at least more serious full range or more close to it speakers then before?

Bookshelves and smaller speakers for surrounds are not going to cut to make this work effectively correct?

 

[dlaloum]

So in looking at the information it sounds like you need some serious or at least more serious full range or more close to it speakers then before?

Bookshelves and smaller speakers for surrounds are not going to cut to make this work effectively correct?

Well, SRC is going to take what DLBC does, extend its functionality further and extend the frequencies involved up to at least 500Hz and maybe 1kHz...

In terms of the bass, having full range speakers, will mean you have as many "subs" as you have full range speakers + any dedicated subs.... and SRC will manage what goes to which speaker....

But in addition to that it will do active room correction all the way up to 1kHz... and the benefits to the midrange will be available (in theory) with any speaker type - whatever your speaker capabilities, it should be able to take advantage of them.

For midrange afficionados like me - it should improve the critical midrange and room interaction with reflections, etc... prehaps resulting in improved imaging/soundstaging and seperation between the surround channels....

For Bass Heads - well if you have 4 subs + 4 or 6 fullranges, the you actually have 8 subs or 10 subs in your room - that will result in increased potential bass SPL with reduced distortion.

If your main speakers including surrounds are true full range (ie: go to below 25Hz) - then an LFE sub may be redundant in many setups...

This should be interesting - can't wait for the reviews to hit the presses in January