Digital audio & "execrable results"

[tbewick]

This link-to article here is on the ABX test carried out by Stanley P. Lipshitz of the Boston Audio Society and the University of Waterloo. The test was on a Sony consumer PCM-F1 digital audio adapter, which had been criticised by Ivor Tiefenbrun, of Linn Products Ltd., as producing "execrable results". Rather unsurprisingly, the test did not agree with this.

The article is worth looking at for some other reasons, like Ivor Tiefenbrun's other rather interesting ideas, i.e. -

"The day began with two brief tests of the Tiefenbrun claim that undriven transducers (digital alarm watches, telephones, headphones, or other loudspeakers) in the same room audibly degrade the sound quality"

- http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

I came across this searching for 'Martin Colloms' on Google, a writer for the UK magazine Hi-Fi News. He has written on the differences in subjective sound quality between audio amplifiers. His article, "Amplifiers Do Sound Different" (Hi-Fi News and Record Review, May 1986) is referred to in another article at the Boston Audio Society site -

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/wishful_thinking.htm

and is also worth a look.

 

[AdrianMills]

Cool links, thanks for that.

 

[hemiram]

I have a friend in the U.K. who knows Ivor Tiefenbrun. To say he has a lot of far out ideas is putting it mildly. Some of his claims are so far out, I'm surprised people just don't laugh in his face.

 

[krabapple]

Mark Levinson believes standard-rez digital causes muscle damage.

There's a lot of kookiness out there in audio-land.

 

[hemiram]

LOL, that's great! I love the kook stuff..

 

[mtrycrafts]

There's a lot of kookiness out there in audio-land.

I would say in consumer-land, audio not exempt

I just read about the billion dollar marketplace for magnet therapy

 

[Sleestack]

Keep in mind though, even "scientific types" often fall prey to their own prejudices and limitations of their own experiences. After all, many doctors in the west still don't accept that accupuncture can be effective.

But as for that article. Yes it is a funny look at one bubble being burst.

 

[hemiram]

I know how effective Accupuncture can be. My old dog was very crippled up due to injuries and arthritis, and I saw an article about accupuncture and decided to try it. He wasn't too happy during his first treatment, but during the ride home, he got up and turned around more easily than he had in some time. After a few treatments, he was walking much better and wasn't having any problems getting up. After the 3rd or 4th treatment, he would practically pass out after the needles went in!

We continued the treatments every two weeks, up until the end. He walked nearly two miles 10 days before we put him to sleep. I'm thinking about trying it for my shoulders, both of them have problems due to 50 years of injuries, working on cars, and being in a lot of fights when I worked as a casino security guard.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Keep in mind though, even "scientific types" often fall prey to their own prejudices and limitations of their own experiences. After all, many doctors in the west still don't accept that accupuncture can be effective.

But as for that article. Yes it is a funny look at one bubble being burst.

Yes, check out the quack watch and look up acupuncture. Not too successful in the end.

http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

Western medicine is usually EVIDENCE based, not in beliefs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I know how effective Accupuncture can be. My old dog was very crippled up due to injuries and arthritis, and I saw an article about accupuncture and decided to try it. He wasn't too happy during his first treatment, but during the ride home, he got up and turned around more easily than he had in some time. After a few treatments, he was walking much better and wasn't having any problems getting up. After the 3rd or 4th treatment, he would practically pass out after the needles went in!

We continued the treatments every two weeks, up until the end. He walked nearly two miles 10 days before we put him to sleep. I'm thinking about trying it for my shoulders, both of them have problems due to 50 years of injuries, working on cars, and being in a lot of fights when I worked as a casino security guard.

I would suggest checking it out here first:

http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

 

[hemiram]

Yeah, yeah, I've seen the negatives, and seen the positive results on several dogs that the same vet treated. My dog's turnaround at nearly 14 years old, was remarkable. Weight increased from 62 pounds back to his lifelong 73 pounds, his movement improved immensely, and his general comfort increased, too.

As far as my shoulders go, the physical therapist idiots I've seen managed to take my shoulder from a minor pain most days, with a couple of major episodes a year, to a moderate pain most days and major pain episodes every month. I told them over and over again, that any cold drafts, ice, etc, make it worse, almost immediately. They started out with ultrasound, and heated towels and it would start getting better, then after two weeks or so, they would start with the cold packs, and no matter how many times I would tell them, they would insist on continuing. At least the first guy admitted at the end, that the cold was a mistake, the second wouldn't even do that. He wanted me to keep up the treatments, out of pocket, at $70 bucks a pop. He had me so messed up I couldn't sleep more than about 15 minutes at a time.

The doctors I've been to can't even decide what is wrong with the left one. Impingement, tendonitis, bursitis, split tendon, etc have all been guessed. I can let the surgeon go in and "look around", for about 2000 bucks out of my pocket, and spend 6 weeks in a sling, with no real guarantee of diddley being fixed..

I think I might try a few accupuncture treatments at the one doctor's office, and see what happens. At this point, I figure it's worth a shot.

 

[AdrianMills]

Yeah, yeah, I've seen the negatives, and seen the positive results on several dogs that the same vet treated. My dog's turnaround at nearly 14 years old, was remarkable. Weight increased from 62 pounds back to his lifelong 73 pounds, his movement improved immensely, and his general comfort increased, too.

As far as my shoulders go, the physical therapist idiots I've seen managed to take my shoulder from a minor pain most days, with a couple of major episodes a year, to a moderate pain most days and major pain episodes every month. I told them over and over again, that any cold drafts, ice, etc, make it worse, almost immediately. They started out with ultrasound, and heated towels and it would start getting better, then after two weeks or so, they would start with the cold packs, and no matter how many times I would tell them, they would insist on continuing. At least the first guy admitted at the end, that the cold was a mistake, the second wouldn't even do that. He wanted me to keep up the treatments, out of pocket, at $70 bucks a pop. He had me so messed up I couldn't sleep more than about 15 minutes at a time.

The doctors I've been to can't even decide what is wrong with the left one. Impingement, tendonitis, bursitis, split tendon, etc have all been guessed. I can let the surgeon go in and "look around", for about 2000 bucks out of my pocket, and spend 6 weeks in a sling, with no real guarantee of diddley being fixed..

I think I might try a few accupuncture treatments at the one doctor's office, and see what happens. At this point, I figure it's worth a shot.

You can find incompetence in any field including medicine, I know as several people in my family including myself have been subjected to it (I could tell you some horrific stories… )

Quackwatch is usually a good read.

Recent research does indicate that acupuncture may have a mildly anti-inflammatory effect and can be useful for those who tend to have reacted unfavourably to modern anti-inflammatory medications. However, it is in no way as effective as modern anti-inflammatory medications for most people nor is acupuncture as cost effective.

 

[Sleestack]

Yes, check out the quack watch and look up acupuncture. Not too successful in the end.

http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

Western medicine is usually EVIDENCE based, not in beliefs.

I come from a family of many doctors. I guess you are implying that non-western medicine is based in beliefs. Although acupuncture is not a cure for all problems, when used for certain pain relief it is extremely effective. My father is an anesthesiologist, pathologist and acupuncturist. He has cured over 300 people of chronic pain with acupuncture... and he does it for free. In some cases he enabled individuals to proceed with a normal life after multiple "western operations" had left them bed-ridden. He has relieved many people of the pain related to TMJ. I suppose you could argue that all of his patients are dillusional, but I have yet to find another instant cure for a crimped neck.

In any case, you always seem to want to be the skeptic. You really shouldn't jump to conclusions. Instead of just linking to some site, why don't you actually contribute something by articulating your sentiments. I didn't say acupuncture was effective at curing everything. All I said was that many western doctors don't believe in the effectiveness of acupuncture.. for what, I did not specify.

 

[MDS]

Well this thread is way off the topic of digital audio now, but interesting nonetheless.

Chiropractors, perhaps just like Accupuncturists, are often labeled pseudo-doctors and that is not entirely fair. I broke my back mountain biking ten years ago. Not as bad as it sounds, but certainly not good - a compression fracture of T7 and T8 - they slammed together so hard that T7 got compressed a bit. This wasn't a real problem until many years later when suddenly I couldn't put any pressure on my right leg so I couldn't walk and a fellow employee let me hang on his shoulder and walked me to my car. Took me 20 minutes to get from my car to my front door when I got home.

If you were to go to a doctor for that problem, they would undoubtedly immediately recommend back surgery - just like they would immediately recommend a whole slew of pills for any minor ill rather than get to the real problem. I went to a highly regarded chiropractor and HE took an X-Ray and showed ME the problem - something the 'real' doctor wouldn't do because of course he has to get me out of there in 10 minutes. [That chump sent me a hand written post-card saying it's just a compression fracture and will heal on its own - no other treatement or information!] The chiropractor explained that the body adapts to pain over time and I had just become used to it and was twisted up slightly. He straightened me right out and I haven't had a recurrence of pain so great I couldn't walk ever again. Now of course I can crack my own neck and lower back with simple exercises.

Modern medicine is good and getting better but they are quick to jump to surgery or prescribing a whole lot of pills because after all that's how they make the most money. Patient care or getting to the real problem and a manageable solution is not the focus anymore. Cholesterol is the new buzzword and all the medications have great side effects. My dad's cholesterol is so low it's not funny and he did it all naturally. So don't automatically dismiss the alternatives - some of them DO have value.

 

[highfihoney]

Great Post & Very True To Life.

Well this thread is way off the topic of digital audio now, but interesting nonetheless.

Chiropractors, perhaps just like Accupuncturists, are often labeled pseudo-doctors and that is not entirely fair. I broke my back mountain biking ten years ago. Not as bad as it sounds, but certainly not good - a compression fracture of T7 and T8 - they slammed together so hard that T7 got compressed a bit. This wasn't a real problem until many years later when suddenly I couldn't put any pressure on my right leg so I couldn't walk and a fellow employee let me hang on his shoulder and walked me to my car. Took me 20 minutes to get from my car to my front door when I got home.

If you were to go to a doctor for that problem, they would undoubtedly immediately recommend back surgery - just like they would immediately recommend a whole slew of pills for any minor ill rather than get to the real problem. I went to a highly regarded chiropractor and HE took an X-Ray and showed ME the problem - something the 'real' doctor wouldn't do because of course he has to get me out of there in 10 minutes. [That chump sent me a hand written post-card saying it's just a compression fracture and will heal on its own - no other treatement or information!] The chiropractor explained that the body adapts to pain over time and I had just become used to it and was twisted up slightly. He straightened me right out and I haven't had a recurrence of pain so great I couldn't walk ever again. Now of course I can crack my own neck and lower back with simple exercises.

Modern medicine is good and getting better but they are quick to jump to surgery or prescribing a whole lot of pills because after all that's how they make the most money. Patient care or getting to the real problem and a manageable solution is not the focus anymore. Cholesterol is the new buzzword and all the medications have great side effects. My dad's cholesterol is so low it's not funny and he did it all naturally. So don't automatically dismiss the alternatives - some of them DO have value.

well written post mds,i know exactly what your talking about with breaking your back & the pain associated with that injury,i broke my back about 20 years ago in a construction accident & spent months on morphine & demerol , none of the pain killers did squat except to keep me f...ed up all the time,surgery was also recomended to me.

after watching me crawl around in pain with a walker for weeks my wife recomended i try seeing a chiropractor,it took a few try's before i found one that wasn't afraid to work on me because of the recent injury but once i did find a doc the pain relief was instant & dramatic.

i too have learned to crack my own neck & back but every few months i cant get my back to pop back in place & i have to go see the doc,once again pain relief is allmost instant,those who automaticaly dismiss these types of medicine are not only being close minded but they are also dismissing a viable alternitave to surgery & drugs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

. I went to a highly regarded chiropractor and HE took an X-Ray and showed ME the problem - .

Well, it sounds like you found one of the few good ones. Unfortunately most will have your babies spine aligned for life, do away with shots, and it goes on and on. And no, these are not in the minority. You found the few good ones who stick to their basic training.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You really shouldn't jump to conclusions. .

You are right. I should ignore all the evidence out there and just follow what feels good. No thanks.

 

[Sleestack]

You are right. I should ignore all the evidence out there and just follow what feels good. No thanks.

No, but you shouldn't jump to conclusions....as in read what is being said before you respond with something that may not even be relevant. Again, jumping to conclusion. No one is asking you to ignore evidence. Just stick to what is being said. You assumed that when I mentioned acupuntcure, I was saying it was effective for a broad range of ailments. I never said anything like that. Instead of making that assumption, why not ask a relevant question rather than just click to some article. Aren't you capable of articulating your own thoughts?

 

[hemiram]

You can find incompetence in any field including medicine, I know as several people in my family including myself have been subjected to it (I could tell you some horrific stories… )

Quackwatch is usually a good read.

Recent research does indicate that acupuncture may have a mildly anti-inflammatory effect and can be useful for those who tend to have reacted unfavourably to modern anti-inflammatory medications. However, it is in no way as effective as modern anti-inflammatory medications for most people nor is acupuncture as cost effective.

Well, NSAIDs do work, for a while, but eventually, my stomach can't take them any more, or they just stop being effective. The last time I was taking Alleve, I didn't know what was worse, the shoulder pain, or my stomach grinding away. Finally, I just went back to the old aspirin bottle. It's better than nothing, and I seem to be able to take a ton of it without any stomach issues.

 

[AdrianMills]

Well, NSAIDs do work, for a while, but eventually, my stomach can't take them any more, or they just stop being effective. The last time I was taking Alleve, I didn't know what was worse, the shoulder pain, or my stomach grinding away. Finally, I just went back to the old aspirin bottle. It's better than nothing, and I seem to be able to take a ton of it without any stomach issues.

From the Wikipedia entry for NSAIDs

An estimated 10-20% of NSAID patients experience dyspepsia, and NSAID-associated upper gastrointestinal adverse events are estimated to result in 103,000 hospitalizations and 16,500 deaths per year in the United States, and represent 43% of drug-related emergency visits. Many of these events are avoidable; a review of physician visits and prescriptions estimated that unnecessary prescriptions for NSAIDs were written in 42% of visits. (Green, 2001)

Maybe you just need to see a competent doctor?

However, sometimes even the placebo effect of a bogus alternative system like Homeopathy can have place for those needing a psychological boost that medical doctors will not provide them. Of course Homeopathy is a load of tosh but psychologically it can help Hypochondriacs and others out there that require the support of a crutch in life. It’s just a shame that sometimes people that really do require the help of a medical professional fall for their scams too.

And although this seems off topic to audio the very similar belief systems and psychological imperatives are at work when people hear a sound that isn't there or want to believe that their oh, so expensive equipment is far better than the cheaper mass produced stuff – which it can be or course but it’s not necessarily the case.