Digital audio & "execrable results"

[krabapple]

"I tried it, it worked for me!'" isn't considered very good evidence. That's why randomized double-blind trials are used. Of course, those would be difficult to do for 'chiropractic' -- which, if you read its self-professed theoretical basis, is as sheer a pile of nonsense as ever was concocted. When spinal manipulation does work -- and there's evidence it can be beneficial in some situations -- it's probably not for the reasons chiropractors believe. Simialrly acupunture probably isn't working through 'qui' or other mystical forces.


http://www.chirobase.org/

 

[Sleestack]

Simialrly acupunture probably isn't working through 'qui' or other mystical forces.


http://www.chirobase.org/

Who ever said anything about mystical forces? Most acupuncturists I talk to only talk about nerve endings and stimulating muscle contractions/blood flow.

 

[Sheep]

I know how effective Accupuncture can be. My old dog was very crippled up due to injuries and arthritis, and I saw an article about accupuncture and decided to try it. He wasn't too happy during his first treatment, but during the ride home, he got up and turned around more easily than he had in some time. After a few treatments, he was walking much better and wasn't having any problems getting up. After the 3rd or 4th treatment, he would practically pass out after the needles went in!

We continued the treatments every two weeks, up until the end. He walked nearly two miles 10 days before we put him to sleep. I'm thinking about trying it for my shoulders, both of them have problems due to 50 years of injuries, working on cars, and being in a lot of fights when I worked as a casino security guard.

Did you ever think that after 8 weeks, mittens might have started healing?

SheepStar

 

[krabapple]

Who ever said anything about mystical forces? Most acupuncturists I talk to only talk about nerve endings and stimulating muscle contractions/blood flow.

Well, I guess they'd better start edumacating their colleagues in the basics of scientific materialism....

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/sep/09lo.html

And if you think this sort of thing is rare in acupuncture-land...you're wrong. If it was, articles like this wouldn't need to be written:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

 

[Sleestack]

Well, I guess they'd better start edumacating their colleagues in the basics of scientific materialism....

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/sep/09lo.html

And if you think this sort of thing is rare in acupuncture-land...you're wrong. If it was, articles like this wouldn't need to be written:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

What field doesn't have its crackers and kooks? I'm also not saying it is rare. I originally mentioned acupuncture and the fact that it many western doctors don't believe in its effectiveness. I never mentioned what it was effective for, not did I say anything about the less scientific claims of many who practice it. It doesn't change the fact that it is indeed effective at treating certain pain related problems and that many legitimate MDs have been trained in acupuncture. Why not just stick to that aspect of acupuncture and try to discuss it rather than divert it with the links to useless dribble. At least articulate your thoughts specifically.

 

[Tomorrow]

The doctors I've been to can't even decide what is wrong with the left one. Impingement, tendonitis, bursitis, split tendon, etc have all been guessed. I can let the surgeon go in and "look around", for about 2000 bucks out of my pocket, and spend 6 weeks in a sling, with no real guarantee of diddley being fixed...

After all, they do call it medical practice. Did you know that more than 100,000 people die in the U.S. every year because of hospital malpractice, alone?! Physicians are not trained scientists. They do no research, for the most part. Their malpractice insurance is sky high not only because of a few greedy lawyers. There are quacks in medicine, too. It is also interesting to note that the good ones generally adopt the "do no harm" approach and begin diagnosis with the most likely problem and work out from there. It's all a study in probability with the good ones...but there are no certainties that even a good one won't kill ya. It truly is a practice.

And Sleestack, I think your comments have been quite clear and precise.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Aren't you capable of articulating your own thoughts?

It's better when professionals who know a bit more help me out.

As to what acupuncture is good for, again, evidence based research will do it for me, not testimonials.

 

[hemiram]

Did you ever think that after 8 weeks, mittens might have started healing?

SheepStar

Mittens?

LOL.

 

[hemiram]

After all, they do call it medical practice. Did you know that more than 100,000 people die in the U.S. every year because of hospital malpractice, alone?! Physicians are not trained scientists. They do no research, for the most part. Their malpractice insurance is sky high not only because of a few greedy lawyers. There are quacks in medicine, too. It is also interesting to note that the good ones generally adopt the "do no harm" approach and begin diagnosis with the most likely problem and work out from there. It's all a study in probability with the good ones...but there are no certainties that even a good one won't kill ya. It truly is a practice.

And Sleestack, I think your comments have been quite clear and precise.

Yep, I know the "practice" part pretty well, they practiced letting me sit in the ER when I was 12 years old, long enough for my appendix to blow. We didn't even think about suing them, even though I almost died from the resulting perotinitis.

My sister's father in law died after his gall bladder was removed and the crack surgical team left a couple of sponges in him. His wife got a whopper of a settlement from the hospital and doctor both really quick.

My one friend almost died after eating a botulism filled burrito when he was 14, and he really hit the jackpot, a well known food company pays him 6 figures annually until he is 65, then on his 65th birthday, he gets a hell of a present, something like 2.6 million dollars. They paid for rehab, college, and ALL his medical bills, for life, or 85 years, whatever comes first. Almost worth almost dying for!

 

[AdrianMills]

It's better when professionals who know a bit more help me out.

As to what acupuncture is good for, again, evidence based research will do it for me, not testimonials.

Acupuncture Really Does Work(Sort of )

Take a read, skip passed the first 3rd or so if you're allergic to alternative BS and it seems that poking needles into certain areas does have a measurable effect. Of course most of the claims of acupuncturists are bogus as are its founding principles but there are some benefits to be gained from it even if they are minor compared to the claims. The same can be said for Chiropractics - but I personally wouldn't want to trust my back to it; a friend and colleague has had some severe back problems over the passed year and was recommended a chiropractor for treatment. Very painful treatment too. It turns out she has an auto immune disease and her vertebrae are starting to fuse and the chiropractor did nothing to help; in fact he continued treating her long after he should have told her to return to her doctor. She'll now be on medication and seeing a qualified physiotherapist.

 

[Sheep]

Mittens?

LOL.

Just a guess.

SheepStar

 

[mtrycrafts]

Acupuncture Really Does Work(Sort of )

Take a read, skip passed the first 3rd or so if you're allergic to alternative BS

Yes, I break out all over
Thanks for the link.

Of course most of the claims of acupuncturists are bogus as are its founding principles but there are some benefits to be gained from it even if they are minor compared to the claims.

That is why I like evidence based results. Maybe there is something but it doesn't seem to be a mystery.

But, This raises questions for me"

The second had 'sham acupuncture' they believed was real. Their scans showed that one area of the brain associated with the production of natural opiates lit up.

Sham in what way? Were the needles placed in the wrong place? The act of sticking the needle obviously forced the body to produce those opiates.

[/b]In the third group, who received real acupuncture, the scans showed that, as well as the opiate centre, another region of the brain, the ipsilateral insular, was activated. This region appears to be involved in pain modulation.
[/b]


Then, the third group were poked in the right place? Wonder how that was arrived at? Or the place where the traditional Chinese practice dictates it?

 

[AdrianMills]

But, This raises questions for me"

The second had 'sham acupuncture' they believed was real. Their scans showed that one area of the brain associated with the production of natural opiates lit up.

Sham in what way? Were the needles placed in the wrong place? The act of sticking the needle obviously forced the body to produce those opiates.

In the third group, who received real acupuncture, the scans showed that, as well as the opiate centre, another region of the brain, the ipsilateral insular, was activated. This region appears to be involved in pain modulation.
[/b]


Then, the third group were poked in the right place? Wonder how that was arrived at? Or the place where the traditional Chinese practice dictates it?

What they are trying to say is that you can poke anyone with a needle (or anything else for that matter as long as it breaks the skin or causes pain) and you will produce a natural opiate. This has been known for quite a while though. And yes, they were placed in "incorrectly".

On the other hand, place those needles "correctly" and together with the opiate the ipsilateral insular will be activated. Now, this is significant in that there is an observable difference that they think has connections with pain modulation.

If this really does do something even in a minor way imagine the time it must have taken to develop the techniques by poking these needles into random places and observing the outcome. The mind boggles. Although maybe the “correct” areas are very large so accuracy is not so important and the probability of hitting one by luck increases.

 

[hemiram]

Just a guess.

SheepStar

Not quite, he was a Pit Bull mix named Gus. At 14+ he wasn't doing much "healing".

 

[Sheep]

Not quite, he was a Pit Bull mix named Gus. At 14+ he wasn't doing much "healing".

I have a pug named Mocha. I WISH I named her Mittesns. That or gobbles.

SheepStar

 

[mtrycrafts]

On the other hand, place those needles "correctly" and together with the opiate the ipsilateral insular will be activated. Now, this is significant in that there is an observable difference that they think has connections with pain modulation.
.

So then, that one location, or sets of multiple locations that releases both opiate and insular would serve for anything then that is helped by these if the amount of release is sufficient to work the intended outcome.

 

[AdrianMills]

So then, that one location, or sets of multiple locations that releases both opiate and insular would serve for anything then that is helped by these if the amount of release is sufficient to work the intended outcome.

Possibly, but not necessarily. I guess it very much depends on how these two work together and how the pain modulation mechanism functions. But yes, it could be that to "treat" anything all you need is X number of arbitrary points that are known to cause this reaction, where would be X the required "strength" - 1 point for headache, 2 for minor arthritis pains, etc.
I wonder if they tested that.

 

[hemiram]

From the Wikipedia entry for NSAIDs


Maybe you just need to see a competent doctor?

>>>Well, since I've seen 2 heads of orthopedic departments at two different hospitals, along with a couple of former ones over the last 18 years or so, I don't think that's the problem. I have so many odd symptoms, and lack some usual symptoms, the main thing being I have full movement of both shoulders.


However, sometimes even the placebo effect of a bogus alternative system like Homeopathy can have place for those needing a psychological boost that medical doctors will not provide them. Of course Homeopathy is a load of tosh but psychologically it can help Hypochondriacs and others out there that require the support of a crutch in life. It’s just a shame that sometimes people that really do require the help of a medical professional fall for their scams too.

And although this seems off topic to audio the very similar belief systems and psychological imperatives are at work when people hear a sound that isn't there or want to believe that their oh, so expensive equipment is far better than the cheaper mass produced stuff – which it can be or course but it’s not necessarily the case.

>>>Sounds kind of like the 911 conspiracy kooks and their "proof". Amazingly insane BS. But funny as hell to read!

 

[hemiram]

I have a pug named Mocha. I WISH I named her Mittesns. That or gobbles.

SheepStar

A friend has a couple of Pugs, they really go insane when I come over with my dogs. We can't let them play too long, the Pugs get so winded, it's kind of scary. They sound horrible. Nice little dogs though.

I have two littermates, Doberman/Lab, and probably Husky mix. Look like short haired, slightly larger than normal Border Collies.

 

[Sheep]

A friend has a couple of Pugs, they really go insane when I come over with my dogs. We can't let them play too long, the Pugs get so winded, it's kind of scary. They sound horrible. Nice little dogs though.

I have two littermates, Doberman/Lab, and probably Husky mix. Look like short haired, slightly larger than normal Border Collies.

Ain't that the truth. My dog makes funny noises 24/7. Just part of their nature.

Cool dogs. Everyone in my hood has labs (black, brown, yellow). Couple of German Shepards too.

SheepStar