Differences between high current amps and normal ones

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... I saw a Panasonic shelf stereo with output power quoted at 1KHz, 10% THD. This is progress?
Sure. :D
First we chased the THD numbers out to 5 decimal places, now we are going the other direction:D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I think you missed it. If that has a 10% distortion rating, might as well be a sub amp, no? It doesn't matter with a sub.:D
Well I suppose. However I have gone to enormous trouble to have clean bass with my TLS system. I would not use an amp with 10%THD on the last octave. I know everyone thinks my rig extreme but you just have to hear it. I just finished listening to Elgar's The Kingdom, under Sir Adrian Boult. Just marvelous with the beautiful organ under pinnings. So smooth quite unlike stand alone subs. I could have been there. So don't tell me you 10% THD is acceptable for anything!
 
B

B3Nut

Audioholic
Of course, an amp rated at 10% THD at a given power rating should be much cleaner at lower levels, some weasel just thought it was cute to start using 10% so they could publish an inflated wattage rating. I don't want that much distortion, even in a subwoofer. There's no reason in 2008 to have it, and there was no reason even in the 70's to have it, since that was the time frame where standard linear AB solid-state amp design was pretty much nailed down. But the masses don't care about fidelity, and much as we may romanticize about the great 70's stereo gear (and I have a modest assortment of 70's peices in regular use) the masses didn't really care about it then either. What did Joe Sixpack have back then for a stereo? Usually it was an all-in-one contraption with a ceramic-cartridge BSR changer and an 8-track or cassette recorder built in. Plus ca change, plus ce la meme chose...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Of course, an amp rated at 10% THD at a given power rating should be much cleaner at lower levels, some weasel just thought it was cute to start using 10% so they could publish an inflated wattage rating. I don't want that much distortion, even in a subwoofer. There's no reason in 2008 to have it, and there was no reason even in the 70's to have it, since that was the time frame where standard linear AB solid-state amp design was pretty much nailed down. But the masses don't care about fidelity, and much as we may romanticize about the great 70's stereo gear (and I have a modest assortment of 70's peices in regular use) the masses didn't really care about it then either. What did Joe Sixpack have back then for a stereo? Usually it was an all-in-one contraption with a ceramic-cartridge BSR changer and an 8-track or cassette recorder built in. Plus ca change, plus ce la meme chose...
We are in a real race to the bottom now though. You just watch the introduction of class D into receivers.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Well I suppose. However I have gone to enormous trouble to have clean bass with my TLS system. I would not use an amp with 10%THD on the last octave. I know everyone thinks my rig extreme but you just have to hear it. I just finished listening to Elgar's The Kingdom, under Sir Adrian Boult. Just marvelous with the beautiful organ under pinnings. So smooth quite unlike stand alone subs. I could have been there. So don't tell me you 10% THD is acceptable for anything!
I am not telling you anything is acceptable, only that subs are tested for spl levels up to 10% THD because you will never know it its there, just not audible in the low bands:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

The Velo still uses servos to limit its THD. How is yours at high levels, have you measure them?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... I don't want that much distortion, even in a subwoofer. ....
Need to check the THD of subs themselves, not the amps, as they approach higher spl levels what their THD is:D
Tom Nousaine and others measure them with the 10% limit for a good reason:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

Not audible in subs. Or, even much higher. Don't shoot the messenger though;)
 
B

B3Nut

Audioholic
We are in a real race to the bottom now though. You just watch the introduction of class D into receivers.
The Panasonic class-D receivers are interesting beasts...they have higher output impedance than a good linear solid-state amplifier. This is probably the reason the tube guys love them, they have the potential to introduce the same frequency-response errors into some loudspeakers that a tube amp has (see Gene's measurements in his article on switching amps.) They seem to be doing the bare minimum for output filtering though. If the engineers keep at it and get the bugs out it is a promising technology, especially for powered speakers. But don't look for the mass-market brands to really lead the way on this, they're all about price point. Then there's RFI...ugh. I'll stick to good linear amplifiers....

It is amusing to hear the single-ended-triode guys wax rhapsodic about their Panny digital receivers though... :)
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
There have been some interesting comments made here, but I think it got a little overcomplicated.

When you get down to it, your voltage is constant (110), and your resistence is your speakers, so a "high current" amp just means a bigger amp. A 300-watt amplifier has more current than a 100-watt, and so on.

I liked the way B3Nut said that a high-current amplifier is simply one in which the power supply and output stage can pass enough current to drive low-impedance loads. Higher current allows for this stability.

We don't really need to overcomplicate this: Voltage is, fairly, constant.... current is the modifier. Current makes the heat though, so heat sinking becomes the issue and therefore cost.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I said I was done with this one but while browsing the audio critic reviews I stumble on this one. It may explain why some speakers could sound different with different amps because of the highly complex (inductive in this case) impedance characteristics. I always thought it would make a difference theorectically but was not sure how significant it would be.

http://theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_20_r.pdf

I really am done with this (debating) but I thought you guys, especially TLS, mtry, B3 may be interested in what this reviewer has to say.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I should add that I do not believe in everything this site (I mean theaudiocritc.com) publishes. To me, some are factual, some are false, and of course some are just opinions.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I should add that I do not believe in everything this site (I mean theaudiocritc.com) publishes. To me, some are factual, some are false, and of course some are just opinions.
Hey I thought you said you were finished?? ;):D
 
B

B3Nut

Audioholic
Some speakers and amplifiers do indeed match poorly, either the amplifier isn't powerful enough or the output impedance is higher than it should be, causing a speaker with a wild impedance curve (cantankerous! :D ) to end up with its frequency response following its impedance curve to whatever degree. The errors introduced can definitely be audible in some cases, and of course they can be measured. This is what gets left out of the debate when we objectivists are said to claim that all amplifiers sound the same across the board, which to my knowledge has never been said. All that is said is that given two amplifiers with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat response, and below-audibility noise and distortion, that both amplifiers will be indistinguishable in a double-blind test at matched levels (within 0.1 dB) provided neither amplifier is allowed to clip. A cantankerous (twice in one post! wheee!) speaker can cause a weak amp to clip surprisingly early, and a difference will be noted (and can even be measured easily! :) ) A speaker that presents a purely resistive load (like a lot of Magneplanars) will sound identical on any flat amp that can drive it at a given level, which Stereo Review discovered in their infamous DBT in the late 80's where a panel failed to distinguish between Julius Futterman OTL monoblocks and an affordable Pioneer chip-amp reciever (a model that used a 2-channel Sanyo STK-series power amplifier module), driving MGIII's if I recall correctly. (I had a pair of SMG's that I loved, and still mourn the demise of, which was destroyed in a completely stupid home-studio accident. Moral: be DARN SURE the ADAT tracks are disarmed before cranking the control room monitor pot when you're tracking acoustic guitar in the same room you mix in.)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I said I was done with this one but while browsing the audio critic reviews I stumble on this one. It may explain why some speakers could sound different with different amps because of the highly complex (inductive in this case) impedance characteristics. I always thought it would make a difference theorectically but was not sure how significant it would be.

http://theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_20_r.pdf

I really am done with this (debating) but I thought you guys, especially TLS, mtry, B3 may be interested in what this reviewer has to say.
Thanks for the reminder with that link.
Too bad, David Rich's P^3 amp test is not used by anyone else. That would tell the real amp capability.

By the way, people should read the back issues that are available at the TAC:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Back_Issues/
 
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