Did Dolby Surround (1982) implement a centre channel before Dolby Pro Logic 1 (1987)?

[lovinthehd]

Sure looks that way to me..........

View attachment 59637

Are those two surround wired from a mono terminal? Otherwise that's 5.1, not 4.0

 

[TheRealOC]

Are those two surround wired from a mono terminal? Otherwise that's 5.1, not 4.0

Yes the rear speakers are a single mono channel (and the subwoofer signal is extracted using a low pass filter, so we could just pretend that isn’t there)

 

[TLS Guy]

I give up

Trying to be polite here, but the original question is very simple.... I have two credible sources saying that that Dolby Surround (1982) implemented a centre channel before Dolby Pro Logic (1987) and another very credible source (Gene) saying that a centre channel was added by Dolby Pro Logic (1987). I would like to know which is correct; that is literally all the question was...................

I know what question you have asked and I have given you a complete and accurate account of the history of matrixed and discrete multi channel audio in the home, as you asked.
Well you had better list your sources if you think what I say is incorrect. 1982 was definitely the Quadraphonic era as far as I remember. Dolby surround was a matrix three channel system contrived from the cinema two channel. I will quote what I consider a reliable source. I think that I am also a reliable source, as I have been doing this for almost 70 years, 69 actually and I have a good memory for these matters. This is what I remember about it and my sources confirm.

The 1980s: Dolby Surround and Dolby Pro Logic
True surround sound came to the home in 1982, with the introduction of Dolby Surround technology. Dolby Surround was designed to reproduce the cinema's Dolby Stereo surround soundtracks in a home environment. The Dolby Surround technology consisted of three channels—left, right, and a single surround channel, which was matrixed in with the front two channels. (This single surround channel was frequently sent to two rear speakers, resulting in a four-speaker system.)

Dolby Surround got an upgrade in 1987, when the Dolby Pro Logic system was introduced. Dolby Pro Logic is a four-channel version of the early three-channel Dolby Surround technology, with a separate center channel, primarily used for dialogue. To this day, Dolby Pro Logic is the surround sound standard for prerecorded VHS videotapes.

If you want to post erroneous information on Wikki go ahead, but I stand by what I wrote.

I know what you were asking and I answered it. If you were convinced you knew all about, then why did you ask the question? The answer to that question is that Dolby did NOT have a matrixed center channel until 1987, no discrete center until Dolby 5.1.

There was a discrete center for high end home systems using an Ampex reel to reel machine to play Mercury Living Presence duplicated tapes, recorded by Fine and Cozart as early as 1955. These recordings are available on Mercury Living Presence SACDs now. That is what I know about it. You can publish what you want, but as far as I'm concerned what I have posted is factually correct on every point.

 

[everettT]

This confirms TLSs posts and was taken from Dolby press archives.


"In 1975, Dolby released Dolby Stereo, which included a noise reduction system in addition to more audio channels (Dolby Stereo could actually contain additional center and surround channels matrixed from the left and right). The first film with a Dolby-encoded stereo optical soundtrack was Lisztomania (1975), although this only used an LCR (Left-Center-Right) encoding technique. The first true LCRS (Left-Center-Right-Surround) soundtrack was encoded on the movie A Star Is Born in 1976. In less than ten years, 6,000 cinemas worldwide were equipped to use Dolby Stereo sound. Dolby reworked the system slightly for home use and introduced Dolby Surround, which only extracted a surround channel, and the more impressive Dolby Pro Logic, which was the domestic equivalent of the theatrical Dolby Stereo."

 

[TLS Guy]

This confirms TLSs posts and was taken from Dolby press archives.


"In 1975, Dolby released Dolby Stereo, which included a noise reduction system in addition to more audio channels (Dolby Stereo could actually contain additional center and surround channels matrixed from the left and right). The first film with a Dolby-encoded stereo optical soundtrack was Lisztomania (1975), although this only used an LCR (Left-Center-Right) encoding technique. The first true LCRS (Left-Center-Right-Surround) soundtrack was encoded on the movie A Star Is Born in 1976. In less than ten years, 6,000 cinemas worldwide were equipped to use Dolby Stereo sound. Dolby reworked the system slightly for home use and introduced Dolby Surround, which only extracted a surround channel, and the more impressive Dolby Pro Logic, which was the domestic equivalent of the theatrical Dolby Stereo."

Thank you, that confirms that my memory is still intact.

I should add that these early systems operated in the analog domain. They were actually all souped up variations on the Hafler quadraphonic circuit. I experimented extensively with the Hafler circuit and was never impressed . All those matrix systems were variations on the theme with marginal improvement.
It took digital processing to really make surround systems viable. For consumer audio digital made inroads into the domestic audio scene starting in 1984. To all intense and purposes it required a consumer multichannel digital format to really make multichannel a viable mass market proposition. The DVD came to market in 1996.
I think you have to mark that as the date truly realistic multichannel audio came to the consumer market.
I just hope the OP does not put highly misleading information out on Wikki. As usual we get to the truth of the matter on this forum, which is due to the dedication of many members. Hopefully we can continue to keep this forum a useful and reliable source of information for many years to come.

 

[TLS Guy]

Sure looks that way to me..........

View attachment 59637

I don't know where you got that from but its wrong.

 

[snakeeyes]

Wiki says Dolby developed surround movies 1976 for 35mm cinema and 1982 for VCR products. Then further improved decoder from Dolby Surround to Dolby Pro Logic in 1987.

 

[TheRealOC]

@TLS Guy Apologies, I was definitely irritable earlier on in the day; have had a cup of tea and calmed down

I don't doubt that everything you said is accurate, and I'm certainly not holding myself out as an expert in anything. Unfortunately, the article is not intended as a complete history of multichannel audio; it has a very specific and limited purpose. However you and @everettT honed in on the relevant point in your most recent posts, so I couldn’t be happier with that, thank you. I’m going to quote what I think are the important parts:


“Dolby surround was a matrix three channel system contrived from the cinema two channel…

The Dolby Surround technology consisted of three channels—left, right, and a single surround channel, which was matrixed in with the front two channels. (This single surround channel was frequently sent to two rear speakers, resulting in a four-speaker system.) ….

Dolby Surround got an upgrade in 1987, when the Dolby Pro Logic system was introduced. Dolby Pro Logic is a four-channel version of the early three-channel Dolby Surround technology, with a separate center channel, primarily used for dialogue. To this day, Dolby Pro Logic is the surround sound standard for prerecorded VHS videotapes…

The answer to that question is that Dolby did NOT have a matrixed center channel until 1987…”


Now, my inexperienced reading of all that would indicate the following to me:

If we wound the clocks back to 1982, and I was an early adapter of Dolby Surround technology – let’s say I bought an original Yamaha DSP-1 surround processor (and an amplifier to pair it with), I would likely have a 3.0 channel setup that looked like this, with four physical speakers, including two physical rear speakers to share the mono surround channel.

Then let’s say I upgraded in 1987 to a Pro Logic 1 receiver like a Pioneer VSX-454 – this is the point in history where I (the Dolby home consumer) could add a nondiscrete centre speaker to my setup, making it a 4.0 system. Have I got that all reasonably correct?

 

[snakeeyes]

From the looks of the M-360 “Dolby MP Matrix” decoder, yes it gives surround but no center.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy Apologies, I was definitely irritable earlier on in the day; have had a cup of tea and calmed down

I don't doubt that everything you said is accurate, and I'm certainly not holding myself out as an expert in anything. Unfortunately, the article is not intended as a complete history of multichannel audio; it has a very specific and limited purpose. However you and @everettT honed in on the relevant point in your most recent posts, so I couldn’t be happier with that, thank you. I’m going to quote what I think are the important parts:


“Dolby surround was a matrix three channel system contrived from the cinema two channel…

The Dolby Surround technology consisted of three channels—left, right, and a single surround channel, which was matrixed in with the front two channels. (This single surround channel was frequently sent to two rear speakers, resulting in a four-speaker system.) ….

Dolby Surround got an upgrade in 1987, when the Dolby Pro Logic system was introduced. Dolby Pro Logic is a four-channel version of the early three-channel Dolby Surround technology, with a separate center channel, primarily used for dialogue. To this day, Dolby Pro Logic is the surround sound standard for prerecorded VHS videotapes…

The answer to that question is that Dolby did NOT have a matrixed center channel until 1987…”


Now, my inexperienced reading of all that would indicate the following to me:

If we wound the clocks back to 1982, and I was an early adapter of Dolby Surround technology – let’s say I bought an original Yamaha DSP-1 surround processor (and an amplifier to pair it with), I would likely have a 3.0 channel setup that looked like this, with four physical speakers, including two physical rear speakers to share the mono surround channel.

View attachment 59654


Then let’s say I upgraded in 1987 to a Pro Logic 1 receiver like a Pioneer VSX-454 – this is the point in history where I (the Dolby home consumer) could add a nondiscrete centre speaker to my setup, making it a 4.0 system. Have I got that all reasonably correct?

View attachment 59655

Your apology is gracefully accepted.

As far as can tell, Dolby Prologic was a 5.1 algorithm. So according to Dolby it was a 5.1 system. However as I remember it if you only checked one rear speaker in the set up menu, then the rear speaker was sent the right and left rear channels and would be 4.1. So if you had two rear speakers and identified them in the speaker set up menu, it would be 5.1.

 

[lovinthehd]

Might be interesting for your article to parallel who actually supported such formats when, especially as far as home delivery goes. I think you should still consider the origins more no matter how it ended up particularly, just makes for a more complete story IMO. Good luck!

 

[Kingnoob]

@TLS Guy Apologies, I was definitely irritable earlier on in the day; have had a cup of tea and calmed down

I don't doubt that everything you said is accurate, and I'm certainly not holding myself out as an expert in anything. Unfortunately, the article is not intended as a complete history of multichannel audio; it has a very specific and limited purpose. However you and @everettT honed in on the relevant point in your most recent posts, so I couldn’t be happier with that, thank you. I’m going to quote what I think are the important parts:


“Dolby surround was a matrix three channel system contrived from the cinema two channel…

The Dolby Surround technology consisted of three channels—left, right, and a single surround channel, which was matrixed in with the front two channels. (This single surround channel was frequently sent to two rear speakers, resulting in a four-speaker system.) ….

Dolby Surround got an upgrade in 1987, when the Dolby Pro Logic system was introduced. Dolby Pro Logic is a four-channel version of the early three-channel Dolby Surround technology, with a separate center channel, primarily used for dialogue. To this day, Dolby Pro Logic is the surround sound standard for prerecorded VHS videotapes…

The answer to that question is that Dolby did NOT have a matrixed center channel until 1987…”


Now, my inexperienced reading of all that would indicate the following to me:

If we wound the clocks back to 1982, and I was an early adapter of Dolby Surround technology – let’s say I bought an original Yamaha DSP-1 surround processor (and an amplifier to pair it with), I would likely have a 3.0 channel setup that looked like this, with four physical speakers, including two physical rear speakers to share the mono surround channel.

View attachment 59654


Then let’s say I upgraded in 1987 to a Pro Logic 1 receiver like a Pioneer VSX-454 – this is the point in history where I (the Dolby home consumer) could add a nondiscrete centre speaker to my setup, making it a 4.0 system. Have I got that all reasonably correct?

View attachment 59655

So was original Dolby surround the same thing as phantom mode ? Prologic with no center ?
An option not available on modern avr or the old formats.

Dolby Pro Logic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Very interesting , prologic 2 seems to be its replacement.

 

[cpp]

So was original Dolby surround the same thing as phantom mode ? Prologic with no center ?
An option not available on modern avr or the old formats.

Dolby Pro Logic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Very interesting , prologic 2 seems to be its replacement.

From what I read the original Dolby surround had the following in 1982 "The Dolby Surround technology consisted of three channels—left, right, and a single surround channel, which was matrixed in with the front two channels. (This single surround channel was frequently sent to two rear speakers, resulting in a four-speaker system.) "
"Dolby Surround got an upgrade in 1987, when the Dolby Pro Logic system was introduced. Dolby Pro Logic is a four-channel version of the early three-channel Dolby Surround technology, with a separate center channel, primarily used for dialogue. "


Interesting: On the old 2003 Sony STR-D915, it had a phantom mode. It notes in the spec's

PHANTOM mode
Select this mode when you play back a Dolby surround
program source without using a center speaker. The sound
of the center channel is output from the front (L and R)
speakers.

 

[everettT]

Note that some confusion in this thread may be attributed to commercial vs consumer versions of their spec.

 

[TheRealOC]

Note that some confusion in this thread may be attributed to commercial vs consumer versions of their spec.

@everettT This is a bit of a digression, but looking back on it, I wonder if some of the people I cited in my original post were using the term "Dolby Surround" when they really mean "Dolby Pro Logic"?

Also I thought it was odd that Pro Logic 1 was introduced in 1987, and a lot of the games I'm researching, which came out in the early/mid and even late 1990s, still had the original Dolby Surround logo on them.

Maybe someone who knows how the branding generally worked in the 1990s could speak to whether it was common for the branding terms to be used interchangeably?

Is it possible that games and video tapes were stamped with the original logo, even though their soundtracks were actually mixed in Pro Logic 1?

 

[Trebdp83]

1976 Dolby Laboratories Dolby Stereo Theater Sound

The roots of multichannel theater sound hail back to Disney's Fantasia, which, in 1940, appeared in certain theaters with a “steered” 3-channel optical track played by a truckload of equipment.

www.mixonline.com

 

[TLS Guy]

1976 Dolby Laboratories Dolby Stereo Theater Sound

The roots of multichannel theater sound hail back to Disney's Fantasia, which, in 1940, appeared in certain theaters with a “steered” 3-channel optical track played by a truckload of equipment.

www.mixonline.com

That is well known, but the OP wanted the thread limited to consumer home audio. It was a three channel optical recorder similar to that, Fine/Cozart used for some of their Mercury Living Presence three channel recordings with left, center and right discreet channels. They also used an Ampex three channel reel to reel recorder. Why they recorded some with one and some with the other is not clear to me. They both sound excellent.

 

[Trebdp83]

Some may confuse the audio mix of media with the up mixer. Before Dolby AC-3(Dolby Digital 5.1)in 1995, Dolby tracks were labeled Dolby Stereo or Dolby Surround. Dolby Pro Logic was the decoder used to process those tracks and I cannot remember any media being labeled Dolby Pro Logic. I referenced the article for the mention of home media in it. I remember our family receiver being an old Kenwood V6020. It had surround speaker hookups but my brother kept going on about how much we needed to update to Pro Logic. I would get one of Pioneer's first AC-3 capable receivers in the 90's. My brother would go on to use that Kenwood into the 2000's at his place.

 

[everettT]

@everettT This is a bit of a digression, but looking back on it, I wonder if some of the people I cited in my original post were using the term "Dolby Surround" when they really mean "Dolby Pro Logic"?

Also I thought it was odd that Pro Logic 1 was introduced in 1987, and a lot of the games I'm researching, which came out in the early/mid and even late 1990s, still had the original Dolby Surround logo on them.

View attachment 59682


View attachment 59683
View attachment 59684 View attachment 59685


Maybe someone who knows how the branding generally worked in the 1990s could speak to whether it was common for the branding terms to be used interchangeably?

Is it possible that games and video tapes were stamped with the original logo, even though their soundtracks were actually mixed in Pro Logic 1?

TLS mentioned in a post above and it adds to this, Dolby had other formats as well on the professional side. The optical recordings were the precursor to full discrete channels but what's more interesting is how many movie theaters chose not to go with any of them in favor of less expensive equipment.

If you look at the push for for Dolby theaters in the late 80s early 90s, the requirements from them were huge, from the screen, slope of the floor and to the floor substrate (and many others), it was not a cheap endeavor and why there were alternatives available.

 

[snakeeyes]

Some of this is covered in the Audioholics article

History of Surround Sound Processing: The Battle for Dolby Pro Logic II

This is a historical perspective on 6-Axis surround originally developed by Jim Fosgate (who recently passed away) and how it battled Harman's very own Logic 7 format to become Dolby Pro Logic II.

www.audioholics.com