Denon PMA-A110 Integrated Amplifier Review

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@rohurulz just how loud do you want at what distance from your speakers?

If it isn't the amp being defective, rereading the measurements, what else might be going on?

If it’s not the amp or the speaker wires, then it has to be the speakers.

 

[rohurulz]

I used to own a 50WPC $500 AVR that powered my towers that sometimes go down to 2.7 ohms. Never ever went into protection/shutdown.

So I doubt the amp needs more power unless your volume is 110dB.

Yes, I tend to clock up the volume to 11-12 o clock, which leads to a volume in excess of 110 to 115 dB on the sound meter.

 

[rohurulz]

It is quite surprising (and intriguing) to hear that the 110 has been stable at hear bleeding levels even below 4 ohms as per the posts mentioned above. The only things that I can add is that the sopras are known to be power hungry and have an uneven bouncy impedance curve which I suspect could lead to this outcome when I clock the volume beyond 11'o clock.. The wiring is all ok and I do not suspect anything wrong with the speakers or the amp since it plays flawlessly for hours at a stretch at volumes around 10 to 11'o clock.

 

[rohurulz]

Yeah, that should work but that's kind of a waste of the 110 as a dac only....but if you have the real estate and boxes already, why not. Why would a pre-amp have a pre-in (just what is a pre-in)? I'd think any of the inputs would work other than phono. I'd imagine the rec-out would bypass the pre-amp, otherwise it would have volume control.

Yes I agree it would be a waste to use this beautiful amp as a DAC only, but I simply love the DAC of this amp. I had tried using the DAC on my Marantz ND8006 streamer with the analogue in on the A110 and simply did not like sound. Therefore, to avoid buying a separate DAC and work with what I have, this is what I thought.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes I agree it would be a waste to use this beautiful amp as a DAC only, but I simply love the DAC of this amp. I had tried using the DAC on my Marantz ND8006 streamer with the analogue in on the A110 and simply did not like sound. Therefore, to avoid buying a separate DAC and work with what I have, this is what I thought.

May not have been the dac particularly, generally you cannot tell what dac you're using, it's been a solved issue for a long time. There are better spec'd external dacs availalble for little money, too. Did you double check your wiring? Have you any other speakers to use with the 110?

How loud are you listening and at what distance from the speakers? That would have an impact on appropriate amp, too, altho from Gene's input seems that amp shouldn't be going into protection unless your use is very loud and at a fair distance from the speakers....

 

[rohurulz]

May not have been the dac particularly, generally you cannot tell what dac you're using, it's been a solved issue for a long time. There are better spec'd external dacs availalble for little money, too. Did you double check your wiring? Have you any other speakers to use with the 110?

How loud are you listening and at what distance from the speakers? That would have an impact on appropriate amp, too, altho from Gene's input seems that amp shouldn't be going into protection unless your use is very loud and at a fair distance from the speakers....

Agree, but the ND8006 uses some predefined filters which may be messing up the sound. These filters cannot be disabled. So it could be that if not the DAC alone.

 

[lovinthehd]

Agree, but the ND8006 uses some predefined filters which may be messing up the sound. These filters cannot be disabled. So it could be that if not the DAC alone.

So you're comparing digital output from your ND8006 via your dac vs the analog output of the cd player? What filters?

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, I tend to clock up the volume to 11-12 o clock, which leads to a volume in excess of 110 to 115 dB on the sound meter.

Missed this comment. That's extremely loud....at what distance are you?

 

[rohurulz]

So you're comparing digital output from your ND8006 via your dac vs the analog output of the cd player? What filters?

You can refer to a post here

Thread 'Difference in DAC sound desirable?' https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/difference-in-dac-sound-desirable.15767/

When you connect the ND8006 via the fixed line out, it use the internal DAC therein, it passes the sound through some pre-defined filters, which cannot be bypassed. So presumably the sound is not neutral and directly from the DAC, which might be spoiling the sound.

These filters are bypassed when I use the digital out on the ND8006 ie use it as a pure streamer and plug it into the DAC of my Denon PMA A110. The output from the A110 is lovely.

 

[rohurulz]

Missed this comment. That's extremely loud....at what distance are you?

At around 3-4 meters.

 

[rohurulz]

I'm very surprised your PMA-110 goes into protection w a 4ohm speaker like a Focal. I ran the PMA-A110 into 2 ohms continuously and it was stable. The amp is a true beast for what it is. The only thing I can think is there's something wrong with your unit or you may have a short in the connection (whiskers at the amp or speaker side) or something really funky is going on with the crossovers in your speakers. The PMA-A110 should have no issues driving Kanta No.2.

The fixed record out doesn't "double amplify" but you won't have level control w the master volume of the A110 so it would be very difficult to make that work the way you want it to unless you use a separate preamp as you suggested but that's a waste of the A110 to only use it as a DAC.

The Sopras are known to be power hungry. Had also written about this issue to Paul who has made a video on the same. You can refer to it here

 

[TLS Guy]

You're making way too many assumptions based on the post under question. WE know very little about the circumstances of his system and unit in question. I run 4 ohm Revel F328be at ear bleeding levels without incident on my PMA-110. The power plant is solid on this unit all the way down to 2 ohms from my testing. My only complaints about the A110 is the lack of sub out and/or stereo pre outs. HDMI eARC would have been a nice feature but you can still use toslink from an HDTV into the unit if you want to stream your apps from your TV.

His amp is going into protection. Those speakers are a pretty savage load. Here are the NRC measurements. The impedance and phase angles taken as a whole are challenging to say the least. I personally would not give it a pass, if one of my speakers had data like that. I honestly would not, and none of my speakers come close to producing curves like that. You have to look impedance curves and the phase angles together, as the current for the apparent power has to be provided, even though it is given back. But that does not relieve the stress on the output stage. If the op has no speaker whiskers, which I doubt, then that amp is no match for the load presented by those speakers at the volume the OP wants.

 

[lovinthehd]

You can refer to a post here

Thread 'Difference in DAC sound desirable?' https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/difference-in-dac-sound-desirable.15767/

When you connect the ND8006 via the fixed line out, it use the internal DAC therein, it passes the sound through some pre-defined filters, which cannot be bypassed. So presumably the sound is not neutral and directly from the DAC, which might be spoiling the sound.

These filters are bypassed when I use the digital out on the ND8006 ie use it as a pure streamer and plug it into the DAC of my Denon PMA A110. The output from the A110 is lovely.

There are better threads on dac differences at ASR, that's one I hadn't seen before, and the ND8006 comment is anecdotal more than helpful. Lots of lovely dacs out there that don't cost $3500

 

[rohurulz]

His amp is going into protection. Those speakers are a pretty savage load. Here are the NRC measurements. The impedance and phase angles taken as a whole are challenging to say the least. I personally would not give it a pass, if one of my speakers had data like that. I honestly would not, and none of my speakers come close to producing curves like that. You have to look impedance curves and the phase angles together, as the current for the apparent power has to be provided, even though it is given back. But that does not relieve the stress on the output stage. If the op has no speaker whiskers, which I doubt, then that amp is no match for the load presented by those speakers at the volume the OP wants.

Thanks for the insights! What do you mean by "If the op has no speaker whiskers, which I doubt", didn't quite get it.

I am using high quality transparent super cables with banana ends, so there is no cross connection etc.

 

[isolar8001]

There are better threads on dac differences at ASR, that's one I hadn't seen before, and the ND8006 comment is anecdotal more than helpful. Lots of lovely dacs out there that don't cost $3500

The Burr Brown chip/DAC used in the Denon is 15 bucks.

https://www.bonanza.com/listings/PCM1795-32-Bit-192-KHz-Stereo-Audio-DAC-BB-Burr-Brown-Brand-New-/373326551?goog_pla=1

Let's subtract that from 3500 dollars....
That leaves 3485 for the rest of that amp.
If you were to make it into one of the three million separate DAC's out there, it should sell for around 120 bucks with a case and plugs and knobs and switches.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would never put power amps inside speakers if it can be avoided. I do prefer rackmount amps and active speakers over passive but I still suspect there's something wrong with his A110 or there are whiskers on the cable connections that could be shorting the unit. I've driven the A110 with a host of speakers including Kanta No2s and never experienced this problem. He should reach out to his dealer and ask for an exchange if the problem persists.

Racks are fine with external amps for active speakers if you have a dedicated space, but many do not.

This is just the front wiring for my active speakers in the AV room.

This is the connection Bus just for the fronts.

This is the surround and rear speaker connections.

That's OK for nuts like you and I, but its not applicable to more usual domestic situations.

Streaming is taking over. If we move to a system with active speakers, and Ethernet connection, there is no reason why the system could not be run from an iPad, or the Android equivalent, and probably your phone. Then we dispense with AVRs and AVPs all together.

The infrastructure we have now will never catch on for the mass market. The whole environment and current systems are just not conducive to adoption by most families and domestic situations.

So flat panel TV, a soundbar and a sub rule the day currently. That gives convenience but at a lower sound quality than most families enjoyed 40 and 50 years ago.

We must be open to different ways of approaching AV in the home, or our systems will fail domestic acceptance and hit the buffers.

I love my systems as do you. I just watched tonight's concert from the DSO from Orchestra Hall Detroit live. It was streamed in superb sound with 4K video from their Al Clancy control room. Sound and picture where superb. The concert was guest conducted by Osmo Vanska, who is a Sibelius specialist. He recorded all the symphonies during his time hear in Minnesota for BIS on SACD. Tonight he performed the Sibelius symphony No.2. I'm lucky enough to be able to hear it in glorious sound at full concert hall level. It was an absolutely glorious tonight with the legendary DSO brass and winds in spectacular form. My point is that mighty few can experience this in the home and have to travel far. This is what has to change, so those that want can avail themselves of these brilliant new technologies.

 

[gene]

It is quite surprising (and intriguing) to hear that the 110 has been stable at hear bleeding levels even below 4 ohms as per the posts mentioned above. The only things that I can add is that the sopras are known to be power hungry and have an uneven bouncy impedance curve which I suspect could lead to this outcome when I clock the volume beyond 11'o clock.. The wiring is all ok and I do not suspect anything wrong with the speakers or the amp since it plays flawlessly for hours at a stretch at volumes around 10 to 11'o clock.

I thought you had Kanta No2 not Sopras. Not sure how the impedance looks on that model but we did measure other Sopra's here: https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/focal-sopra-nb01

110-115dB SPL sustained at your listening area will give you permanent hearing damage relatively quickly. You're gonna need more efficient speakers and bigger amps to compensate.

 

[Trebdp83]

“I spent a lot of money on these speakers, cables, media player and integrated amp. Shouldn’t I be able to crank the volume up beyond any reasonable and safe limits while sitting closely to the speakers?” No. Be glad the amp protected itself and it and the speakers didn’t go up in smoke.Turn the volume level down and spend a little money on hearing aids while you can still hear at all.

Let these posts also serve as a reminder to those with problems concerning their sound systems to include ANY and ALL of the information concerning those problems at the outset so others aren’t forced to pull teeth to get that information and @TLSGuy doesn’t overreact, as is usually the case, and remind us all that no system in the world will ever deliver sound more pleasingly than his own.To be fair, his system is as impressive as his posts are tiresome.

ANY system can be driven beyond its limits. Often, problems with a sound system begin with the listener’s behavior on it rather than with any actual defect in the sound system. Overspending on certain components of a sound system does not make that system impervious to harm let alone guarantee better sound output than less expensive equipment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, I tend to clock up the volume to 11-12 o clock, which leads to a volume in excess of 110 to 115 dB on the sound meter.

I would measure it from your listening seat using a SPL meter and get an actual number.

 

[rohurulz]

I would measure it from your listening seat using a SPL meter and get an actual number.

Thanks for the suggestion. Here is the screenshot of the same.

This is at a distance of 3 meters from the speakers with the volume at 10'o clock.