Denon or Onkyo or ???

D

DJ7675

Audioholic
So what are denons? They are considered to be neutral, and marantz more of a warmish in nature.

I agree room and speakers have some impact on the sound, but in my case, it's the same room, same speaker, same cables except avr.

The moment I switched my Denon to the Yamaha, I noticed an improvement of sound, the yamaha definately sounded better in lower volumes, and more balanced, that too uncalibrated.

After calibration ofcourse it made the sound even better, so in total I would say it was 5x improvement over the Denon.

It made even my crappy subwoofer sing. Now I wasn't hearing just the boomy bass but also, well tuned subwoofer which put out some sweet low end bass notes as per the music that was being played.

But then again the Denon is X2300W which is one model lower to X36000H and that too 4 year old, but I'm still doubting whether X3600H would've sound any different than X2300W, since both are Denons and this a denon which is just 1 model above it.

I saw a post on facebook where the guy just recently bought the Denon X3700H and wanted an amp that could drive his moniter audio silver 300 better than X3700H, it's quite suprising that X3700H being a 2020 can't drive the MAs.

What I've noticed looking at the various post all over the internet is that, for Denon to sound good for music is that, an external amp is crucial part, without which they fail to sound good.

I've also heard the Denon + Taga harmony towers in the retail stores, they were too harsh and lacked the quality.
Same story with my Denon X2300W, elacs were too harsh and unrefined with Denon. This guy in the store was playing a concert DvD encoded in DTS hd format.

Switching to yamaha made a big diference in sound. I can actually hear some mid bass kickin out of the Elac speakers but wirh more accuracy.

Nothing on Denon worked for me, flat being the brightest, reference again being bright and thin, L/R bypass again being dull but did improve the bass but wasn't anywhere as good as yamaha's natural or flat setting.

Switching off audyssey made my speaker sound like an AM radio.

So, alltogether Denon isn't good for people who are a critical listener for music. Therefore I suggested OP to choose Yamaha over Denon.

But the OP feels more comfortable picking the Onkyo, well even the Onkyo will sound punchier than most Denon in the same price range. I have been hearing about it a lot. Onkyo is more punchier than Denon.

So, what in the hell does Denon do then besides sounding crap?

Even my 12 year old Sony htib sounded better than Denon X2300W.

Most pribably the Sony htib playes louder was because of the 3ohm setup making it easier for the slim reciever to sound louder and punchier.

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Just don’t know where to start with this... Glad you enjoy the Yamaha. Denon makes excellent sounding gear.
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
Just don’t know where to start with this... Glad you enjoy the Yamaha. Denon makes excellent sounding gear.
Yes, if you have an external amplifier then maybe. It's not an excellent sounding gear tho. There are better options out there for the similar prices.

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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
All I can say is Denon sounds like some typical cheap avr.

The reason why you get more channels on the Denon for the price is, ofcourse as Denon focuses on quantity rather than quality.

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this is just nonsense.
Have fun with the kool-aid.
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
Bench tests show amplifiers to measure quite well actually relative to other brands, both in quality and in total power.
 
Last edited:
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Bench tests show amplifiers to measure quite well actually relative to other brands, but in quality and in total power.
And iirc, asr put the denon 3600 at the number two AVR spot on his list.
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
I wasn’t really saying denon or marantz were bad. If you’re a novice and want best possible sound most will just run audyssey and leave it alone.

I absolutely add 6-8db to subs after running audyssey. If you go too far though you’ll notice a muddy sound with distortion. That’s even with running no dynamic eq. Even with doing that with audyssey engaged you’ll still see way less spl then others. Audyssey will eq at a max up or down 9db to get flattest frequency response. If you turn it up too loud some frequency will distort. For example you have a null at 60hz and audyssey adds 9db but a peak at 25hz, so let’s take away 9db. It’s flatter now but then we turn it up to reference and some movie has massive dynamics at 60hz and you hear your sub rattle or pop because we are boosted too high at that frequency for that certain sub. Audyssey is the only room eq to make this happen in my years of testing.

I used an arcam avr850 and lexicon rv6 with Dirac and got fantastic results. Just so many choices, so I don’t limit my opinions. Fwiw my denon and marantz setups sound excellent with audyssey off.
Someones doing the Moonwalk
 
S

Sachb

Audioholic
And iirc, asr put the denon 3600 at the number two AVR spot on his list.
And it put the better amp way behind the list which is the "Marantz 6014", so does it mean Denon X3600H is much better than Marantz 6014 and has a superior hardware?
Hillarious.

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D

DJ7675

Audioholic
And it put the better amp way behind the list which is the "Marantz 6014", so does it mean Denon X3600H is much better than Marantz 6014 and has a superior hardware?
Hillarious.

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Yes. That’s exactly what it means. Denon amp measures better in SINAD (THD+N) at 5w and power. They are more similiar than different which shouldn’t be surprising to anyone.
C5144E2A-CDA3-4485-B0DB-F54A8EFE9C4E.png
3BE6AF03-B782-48FD-A058-96642452EEEA.png
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Chief
These are all moot points. The Sony the OP took home from the pawn shop had a short in it. He took quite a jolt and, well, let's just say he won’t be able to hear the difference between any comparable AVRs anymore. It may have caused a short in his head as well. I heard he tried to bath in the toilet and s#%t in the tub. Poor f#%ker. I blame you all.:mad:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
And it put the better amp way behind the list which is the "Marantz 6014", so does it mean Denon X3600H is much better than Marantz 6014 and has a superior hardware?
Hillarious.

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If you mean power amps, the "amps" in those two are identical. You an buy the service manuals and see for yourself. I think I paid about $12 to $16 for each if they helps. You can search for them or I can post a link if you are interested.

Marantz has to sell theirs for more because:
- they have the legacy 7.1 analog inputs.
- gold plated connectors (shouldn't cost that much more but everything adds up)
- 13 channels (including sub outs) of HDAM modules (that's on the preamp side, power amps are identical).

The vol control IC (aka the preamp..) and DAC ICs are identical. HDAMs are put in the last stage of the pre/pro side, gain is 1, so as an extra stage it will add distortions and noise however small. The added distortions could make a difference, but based on the measurements, it is hard to imagine most people could discern such minute differences. The claimed benefits are marketing hypes by nature, just like the AL32, DDSC benefits claimed by Denon on the digital side. By they way, HDAMs are not used in the Marantz slim line series but fans have that "better sound" embedded in their minds already so it doesn't matter..
 
T

TechToys2

Junior Audioholic
If you mean power amps, the "amps" in those two are identical.
If the amps are identical, why is the 6014 rated at 110 watts/channel while the 3600h is rated at 105? Not being argumentative and only a very slight difference, but curious.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
If the amps are identical, why is the 6014 rated at 110 watts/channel while the 3600h is rated at 105? Not being argumentative and only a very slight difference, but curious.
Are the ratings identical?
 
Timforhifi

Timforhifi

Audioholic
I wouldn’t worry about the amp sections between the denon 3600 vs marantz 6014. They are all so close, even the marantz 8012. Really the 8012 is just a marantz 8077 power amp, which tested poorly. That 8077 was 128x2 @.1 distortion. 113x5 and 108x7@.1 distortion. Compared to a denon 4200 which was 124x2, 94x5 and 76x7@.1 distortion. That denon is very comparable to the newer denon 3600. Really the difference from marantz 5000-8000 series is just a little more power with more processing channels and same exact dac. Definitely disappointed that marantz 8012 didn’t use the akm 4490 dac that denon 8500 utilizes.

If you’re worried about power get a real power amp with a dedicated 20a circuit. Denon 8500 or marantz 8015 won’t even compare to something like a 20 year old Adcom 7807 that you can buy used for under $1000.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I wouldn’t worry about the amp sections between the denon 3600 vs marantz 6014. They are all so close, even the marantz 8012. Really the 8012 is just a marantz 8077 power amp, which tested poorly. That 8077 was 128x2 @.1 distortion. 113x5 and 108x7@.1 distortion. Compared to a denon 4200 which was 124x2, 94x5 and 76x7@.1 distortion. That denon is very comparable to the newer denon 3600. Really the difference from marantz 5000-8000 series is just a little more power with more processing channels and same exact dac. Definitely disappointed that marantz 8012 didn’t use the akm 4490 dac that denon 8500 utilizes.

If you’re worried about power get a real power amp with a dedicated 20a circuit. Denon 8500 or marantz 8015 won’t even compare to something like a 20 year old Adcom 7807 that you can buy used for under $1000.
With the recent burning of the AKM plant, could be anyone planning on using them might need to re-design.....
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
And it put the better amp way behind the list which is the "Marantz 6014", so does it mean Denon X3600H is much better than Marantz 6014 and has a superior hardware?
Hillarious.

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Hilarious..... where’s Yamaha on that list?
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Chief
Been enjoying my new Onkyo all day long. Listening to tunes from it’s Tidal app now. Sound and video passthrough are an improvement over the Onkyo it replaced so I’m good. I heard the OP slipped in the tub while takin’ a s#%t and f#%kin’ died but you guys go ahead and keep bickering. I can read this s#%t and enjoy the music at the same time.:p
 
T

TechToys2

Junior Audioholic
Are the ratings identical?
Not sure that this is the most reliable source, but here is a comparison. https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x3600h/uk/marantz-sr6014/uk/

@Timforhifi, I'm not worried about the amp section difference. I was just curious about the statement that the amps sections were identical and wondered if there was a slight tweak with respect to power, what else, if anything might have been different. In the end, I'm sure it is essentially the same.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Not sure that this is the most reliable source, but here is a comparison. https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x3600h/uk/marantz-sr6014/uk/

@Timforhifi, I'm not worried about the amp section difference. I was just curious about the statement that the amps sections were identical and wondered if there was a slight tweak with respect to power, what else, if anything might have been different. In the end, I'm sure it is essentially the same.
I meant more what were the specific ratings provided by each manufacturer in their specs? I assumed you had compared already and could identify them as identical or perhaps slightly different (which could explain slight differences in wattage spec).
 

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