Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

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Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
The current V6A doesn't have analog as far as I know.

I think they got rid of the input selector too

What if your remote stops working suddenly & and you need to change the input to something else?

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
Of course it has analog, It has a selector knob on the front panel research it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I wont tell you guys who I'm rooting for. :p
You may change your mind if one day you picked up another nice used Denon or Marantz Don't try another older than the X4300H, SR7011 though, if and when you are ready.:p
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I will be going back to Anthem with the AMV 70. My first Pre/Pro was the AVM30, then AVM50. It's priced more competitively, never had issues with sound quality I prefer ARC for room correction, and love the look. That being said, I will not be an early adopter, I am going to wait and see how reliable they are. Hopefully Anthem got past their early receiver days with issues.
Not to pour cold water, and I know facts and figures don't change people's mind when it comes to audio toys.:D Just that I thought you have been happy with the AV8802A so I got a little curious about your upcoming upgrade, or just update choices, so I hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts, and what I consider logical thinking..:) If you are still aiming for the best possible/theoretical sound quality, your practical choices, imo, would be the 2020 Denon AVRs, though I would wait to see what the changes will be for the 2021 models. Reason is simple, you have already been in the prepro mode and paid a lot for the 8802A, and bench tests have told us the truth, that you actually got more distortions and noise (THD, IMD, 32 tones etc.etc..), and their never bother upgrading the preamp chip in that $4,999/or was it $4,499 prepro. I've been there myself, twice, so I too, prefer AVPs, but won't spend a dime more on any, not until they actually use better parts and components in area that counts.

To be clear, I do find it ridiculous to, as I am now, use an AVR as a prepro. It is not that I believe I can hear a difference between the $6,000 or even $12,000 prepros 92-95 dB SINAD vs the Denon AVR's 97 to 100 dB (just arbitrary examples), and I know it would practically mean nothing to me. It is a matter of principles for me that it makes little sense to pay more for less, regardless. Likewise, on the REQ side, after having plotted so many FR graphs with REW, I know for sure Anthem ARC, Dirac Live, Audyssey+App, won't make any audible difference, people made all kinds of subjective claims, yet none has shown any evidence to support one is better (audibly), if anything, just the contrary.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Ok AH members, we gotta put Andrew's threads back together. Or Thor willbe dropping in. AKA ADTG.
63B37901-7622-4793-B598-8F890DD2D970.gif
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not to pour cold water, and I know facts and figures don't change people's mind when it comes to audio toys.:D Just that I thought you have been happy with the AV8802A so I got a little curious about your upcoming upgrade, or just update choices, so I hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts, and what I consider logical thinking..:) If you are still aiming for the best possible/theoretical sound quality, your practical choices, imo, would be the 2020 Denon AVRs, though I would wait to see what the changes will be for the 2021 models. Reason is simple, you have already been in the prepro mode and paid a lot for the 8802A, and bench tests have told us the truth, that you actually got more distortions and noise (THD, IMD, 32 tones etc.etc..), and their never bother upgrading the preamp chip in that $4,999/or was it $4,499 prepro. I've been there myself, twice, so I too, prefer AVPs, but won't spend a dime more on any, not until they actually use better parts and components in area that counts.

To be clear, I do find it ridiculous to, as I am now, use an AVR as a prepro. It is not that I believe I can hear a difference between the $6,000 or even $12,000 prepros 92-95 dB SINAD vs the Denon AVR's 97 to 100 dB (just arbitrary examples), and I know it would practically mean nothing to me. It is a matter of principles for me that it makes little sense to pay more for less, regardless. Likewise, on the REQ side, after having plotted so many FR graphs with REW, I know for sure Anthem ARC, Dirac Live, Audyssey+App, won't make any audible difference, people made all kinds of subjective claims, yet none has shown any evidence to support one is better (audibly), if anything, just the contrary.
I think our purchasing decision is based on a lot of things, probably mostly personal things, not just SQ (which is really a non-factor among any of them).

People who have owned certain brands for a long time without "incidents" will most likely go back to those same brands.

So the odds of @3db owning a non-Yamaha AVR is very low - only way he would is if someone GAVE him the AVR for free. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I think our purchasing decision is based on a lot of things, probably mostly personal things, not just SQ (which is really a non-factor among any of them).

People who have owned certain brands for a long time without "incidents" will most likely go back to those same brands.

So the odds of @3db owning a non-Yamaha AVR is very low - only way he would is if someone GAVE him the AVR for free. :D
Of course, but in this case I am not as sure. Iirc, he was even a NAD fan one time, long time ago but I might have remember wrong.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
I think our purchasing decision is based on a lot of things, probably mostly personal things, not just SQ (which is really a non-factor among any of them).

People who have owned certain brands for a long time without "incidents" will most likely go back to those same brands.

So the odds of @3db owning a non-Yamaha AVR is very low - only way he would is if someone GAVE him the AVR for free. :D
I'd take a free AVR, or a free ATi amp or free RBH sub. isn't AudioRX gonna have their free Christmas drawing again this year? :D
 
S

Sachb

Full Audioholic
Of course, but in this case I am not as sure. Iirc, he was even a NAD fan one time, long time ago but I might have remember wrong.
NAD, Arcam, Anthem are top tier high end brands, so he might go for something else I feel.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
PENG I liked your last post. I’m currently stuck in a decision dilemma myself. I’m upgrading but was delayed by the hdmi 2.1 scenario. I was going to buy the Marantz AV 8805 update (when available) until I read all of ASR’s bench tests. I’m now considering either waiting until feb for the Anthem AVM90 or purchasing instead the uptuned Denon a110 (based on Denon 8500). I’ve been schooled through articles and forums to “want” a separate prepro for best sound quality. Now after the reality of ASR’s reviews I’ve begun to lose faith in that belief. My instinct tells me the a110 will deliver superb SINAD (>100db) especially if all the amps are turned off. I will be using Anthem’s 325 for fronts and center and NAD’s CI 980 for surrounds for a 7.2.4 system. I am already used to Denon as I’m currently using the Marantz SR 8012. BUT the AVM90 release notes promise better audio upgrades which will likely get near or match those of the Denon. So there is my dilemma. Satisfy the long held believe that separates are best or go with the Denon as my prepro? Your thoughts?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG I liked your last post. I’m currently stuck in a decision dilemma myself. I’m upgrading but was delayed by the hdmi 2.1 scenario. I was going to buy the Marantz AV 8805 update (when available) until I read all of ASR’s bench tests. I’m now considering either waiting until feb for the Anthem AVM90 or purchasing instead the uptuned Denon a110 (based on Denon 8500). I’ve been schooled through articles and forums to “want” a separate prepro for best sound quality. Now after the reality of ASR’s reviews I’ve begun to lose faith in that belief. My instinct tells me the a110 will deliver superb SINAD (>100db) especially if all the amps are turned off. I will be using Anthem’s 325 for fronts and center and NAD’s CI 980 for surrounds for a 7.2.4 system. I am already used to Denon as I’m currently using the Marantz SR 8012. BUT the AVM90 release notes promise better audio upgrades which will likely get near or match those of the Denon. So there is my dilemma. Satisfy the long held believe that separates are best or go with the Denon as my prepro? Your thoughts?
First of all, you have to realize that Amir's harsh criticism of those high price prepros including the AV8805 were based on what he considered "engineering excellence", not all about audibility. He wrote an article (can be found on the ASR site) on the audibility of distortions/noise that explained why he would consider the need of SINAD as high as 115 dB. That is not because the likes of the AV8805's 90 to 91 dB would be an audible issue for people like you and I, but only, or mainly, because while at 90 dB SINAD, the THD+N may likely be below your room's ambience noise level, depending on other details, such THD+N level may still be audible as their "inaudibility" would depend on the masking effects of the music that is not totally clear or work in the same or very similar way in all cases. Benchmark has an easy to read article on more or less the same topic. Amir's is a shorter read but Benchmark's seems more in depth. Beware that they obviously want to entice you to buy their AHB2, that measured so well that challenged the AP's (the measuring instrument) limit.

I agree with Amir for the most part, that SINAD needs to be higher than what we may think, even though I am quite positive that most people would not be able to be bothered by such low level of THD+N (-90 dB), even if their room's ambient noise is exceptionally low such as 10 to 15 dB. Mine is about 20-25 dB at its quietest moment such as in the middle of the night and the HVAC and fridge are off. To me it is not about audibility though, it is more about principle, that if I paid so much more for a prepro, I want their specs and measurements reflected in the price I pay. I will not (and I had, unfortunately..) pay more again, and get less, that's about the only reason!!

So if paying more for less (I mean specs/measurements only) is not an issue for you because the look, build quality, prestige, perceived reliability, balanced output etc., are more important to you, then I think the AV8805 is an excellent choice if you can get one at deep discount. Deep discount because it is now an "outdated" model, without the paid HDMI 2.1/8K upgrade.

Finally, my thoughts on brands is that for a complicated and potentially problem prone product such as an AVP, I would not touch the likes of NAD, Anthem, Arcam's. In fact, I would only consider Yamaha and Marantz (too bad Denon no longer make one) AVPs. I like Anthem and NAD amps, actually own one of each, but those are simple, matured engineered products that tend to last trouble free for tens of years, except the class D amps that you do have to pay more attention to details if shopping for one.

Just my two cents, no doubt many will disagree, partially or totally..:)

Edit: Just noted that you mentioned the Denon flag ship AVRs as well. If you opt for one of those two, why bother with the NAD amp? For 7.1.4 those AVRs should have no trouble driving the surrounds. The A110 is nice, but you can probably get a fantastic deal on the X8500H. As you know, the Denon still ranks top on the ASR chart.
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I think our purchasing decision is based on a lot of things, probably mostly personal things
Even mere availability. Since brands mean little to me, I'm mostly interested in what you can find near to you. Second hand market is full of Yamaha. In my country you'll find a lot of Yammy-heads (really a lot of them), stacking dozens of different AVR's that more or less do the same thing. Funny yes, but... This is why when new units appear these guys will part with some of the gear to buy new. So ads are full of Yamahas.

While people have harder time parting with Denon or Marantz. And they tend to overprice them. Vintage Marantz is double the price of what an equivalent new unit would be; same power but more features on the side of new ones.

Talking about watt per dollar, I bought 2x110Wpch Yamaha for less then what I would have to pay for 2x80 Marantz.

If you check just these two guys for example, you'll know what I'm talking about (ignore the language, just give it a quick scroll through the models. Sometimes the choice is bigger than in a shop):
Yammy-head1
Yammy-head2

I always keep track of them and pick and choose... I hooked up a few of my family members and friends with gear from these two.
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
PENG nice to receive trusted advice from a forum Yoda such as yourself. I did just read the articles you recommended. I had no real illusion I could hear the differences between measured SINADs of different marketed AVPs. I too liked the principle of “good engineering hygiene” forecasted by Amir’s mathematical values. It simplifies comparisons between products that my ears could not detect. Hence why I was surprised by Marantz’s 7705/8805 results when compared to Denon’s AVR8500 and why I decided not to buy the 8805. So I am leaning toward using the uptuned Denon a110 as my prepro at 5500 vs waiting for the Anthem AVM90 at 7000. I thought you would reinforce that route. I am skeptical the AVM90 will be bug free but do believe it will have better engineering measurements than the AVM60. Still I’m stuck but at least neither is currently available to purchase. So I have more time to listen and learn. Thank you all for comments.
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
PENG just read your edit. Thanks for replying. My thoughts on all amps off on the Denon as a prepro was for chasing the best mathematical purity. If I leave some internal amps on are they going to generate measurable “noise”—even slight—compared no “noise” if all are off? The uptuned a110 suits my sense audiphilia vs the 8500.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hence why I was surprised by Marantz’s 7705/8805 results when compared to Denon’s AVR8500 and why I decided not to buy the 8805.
I think most engineers who know something about amps would suspect the surprising poorer results might have been due to the extra HDAM buffer stage added to the end of the preamp signal chain. If so, Marantz could fix that by replacing the HDAMs with nothing (would then be more than a Denon) or with high quality OPA chip based buffers. I doubt they would do such a thing, but based on Gene's review on the SR8012, they seemed to have made significant improvements by replacing the HDAM with another one that was used in their integrated amps. Still, that unfortunately could mean higher costs, for no audio quality related reasons but marketing hypes that may allow them to sell more.:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG just read your edit. Thanks for replying. My thoughts on all amps off on the Denon as a prepro was for chasing the best mathematical purity. If I leave some internal amps on are they going to generate measurable “noise”—even slight—compared no “noise” if all are off? The uptuned a110 suits my sense audiphilia vs the 8500.
Yes if you have the power amps disconnected you will have the "best mathematical purity" (just borrowed your words..) at pre out voltage >1.4 V. At lower output there will be negligible difference if any, and obviously you know that already.:)
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
PENG. So if it was you, you would not buy the Anthem AVM90? Based on your past reliability experience and doubt about their ability to measure up to Denon’s results?
 
S

stalag2005

Full Audioholic
I have currently a RX-V663 Yamaha that I purchased back in 2008. Due to life changes, disc degeneration in my lower back, and degradation due to diabetes, what I could easily administer I struggle with now. The manual is difficult to read and the menuing system used by Yamaha in the era the RX-V663 was designed in is awful. I am definitely looking at upgrading. I do have a budget, but at the moment am leaning after looking at the manuals to use of the Anthem MRX-740 that is soon to come out as my upgrade. I did try the YPAO sound correction in my AVR but never found it fully working in my favor acoustically. I do know the per channel amplifiers on the MRX-740 are specified at 140W per vs the RX-V663 at 95W per as in the manuals for both. As no one has the MRX-740 currently (Release pushed back to January from what I have seen) the only comparisons are between the MRX-720 and my RX-V663. Given this without money an issue here, is the ease of administration and the customer service worth it for the Anthem, or should I consider another AVR? I kind of like what I saw of the interface to deal with the MRX-740. Given a budget of $3000 what would you do?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Warlord
PENG. So if it was you, you would not buy the Anthem AVM90? Based on your past reliability experience and doubt about their ability to measure up to Denon’s results?
I’m not Peng :) , but I am intrigued enough by Anthem to have considered them in the past... The problem still stands: their performance to cost ratio needs to change to make them a real contender. I would NOT pay Anthem or NAD money for the type of measurements seen on ASR. Not when the HTP-1, for example is doing as well as it is. (The shame there is that Amir will not (or at least as of the last time I checked, has not) revise his review as he did with Denon that had testing errors.)
Anyway, minor points to be certain.
In the end, I would not chase performance alone, but performance to cost is appropriate.
If some other brand cost 20%more than Denon but measured worse... no. If the same product performed 20% better... possibly. ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I have currently a RX-V663 Yamaha that I purchased back in 2008. Due to life changes, disc degeneration in my lower back, and degradation due to diabetes, what I could easily administer I struggle with now. The manual is difficult to read and the menuing system used by Yamaha in the era the RX-V663 was designed in is awful. I am definitely looking at upgrading. I do have a budget, but at the moment am leaning after looking at the manuals to use of the Anthem MRX-740 that is soon to come out as my upgrade. I did try the YPAO sound correction in my AVR but never found it fully working in my favor acoustically. I do know the per channel amplifiers on the MRX-740 are specified at 140W per vs the RX-V663 at 95W per as in the manuals for both. As no one has the MRX-740 currently (Release pushed back to January from what I have seen) the only comparisons are between the MRX-720 and my RX-V663. Given this without money an issue here, is the ease of administration and the customer service worth it for the Anthem, or should I consider another AVR? I kind of like what I saw of the interface to deal with the MRX-740. Given a budget of $3000 what would you do?
Does Anthem have good customer support? I haven't heard much about their customer support.

I've heard that Anthem ARC Room Correction is difficult to use, same as the difficulty of Dirac.
 
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