Denon AVR-X8500H World's First 13.2CH AV Receiver

[PENG]

Peng, how does the Denon AVR-7200WA compare to your
MARANTZ AV8801 11.2-Ch Networking A/V Preamp/Processor? Congrats by the way!

No idea what you congrat me for, I didn't buy anything..
Have you read the S&V lab measurements? If not, follow links below.

AVR-X7200WA

AV8801

AV8802

I did do a comparison of the 3 units, please see attached pdf file. Based on the S&V measurements, the Denon AVR actually outperformed the AV8801 and even the AV8802. The only matching power amplifier that came close to, though still beaten by my ex AVR-4308CI, is the older MM8003, not the current model MM8077. Good thing at least I made the right choice on that one, but it is used to power my surround channels only.

Edit: If you had downloaded the attached pdf file, note that I had the SNR reversed between the 8801 and 8802, fixed now.

 

[surveyor]

Oops, my misread!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Based on the S&V measurements, the Denon AVR actually outperformed the AV8801 and even the AV8802.

That’s sacrilege. AVR can never outperform Separates like Pre-Pros.

AVRs are daft, idiotic, and, thus must be phased out.

 

[M Code]

No idea what you congrat me for, I didn't buy anything..
Have you read the S&V lab measurements? If not, follow links below.

AVR-X7200WA

AV8801

AV8802

I did do a comparison of the 3 units, please see attached pdf file. Based on the S&V measurements, the Denon AVR actually outperformed the AV8801 and even the AV8802. The only matching power amplifier that came close to, though still beaten by my ex AVR-4308CI, is the older MM8003, not the current model MM8077. Good thing at least I made the right choice on that one, but it is used to power my surround channels only.

U are aware the S&V measurements are done @ 1kHz...
Before putting too much weight on these, one needs to see what it does @ 20Hz and 20kHz. Power measurements @ 1kHz are the easiest to deliver, they don't load down the power supply for current as the 20Hz and 20kHz do. I have some AP graphs on the 7200 I will pull out and advise back what the power decreases were but I recall @ 20Hz and 20kHz were down about 25% from the 1kHz measurements...
Using the (2) channels driven.

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

U are aware the S&V measurements are done @ 1kHz...
Before putting too much weight on these, one needs to see what it does @ 20Hz and 20kHz. Power measurements @ 1kHz are the easiest to deliver, they don't load down the power supply for current as the 20Hz and 20kHz do. I have some AP graphs on the 7200 I will pull out and advise back what the power decreases were but I recall @ 20Hz and 20kHz were down about 25% from the 1kHz measurements...
Using the (2) channels driven.

Just my $0.02...

I am aware of that but It doesn't matter because they were all measured the same way for apple to apple comparison. Note that the AVR beat both the prepros and the power amps. Also be careful about the lower snr of the avr that was from pre input to speaker output so that comparison gets a little tricky.

 

[PENG]

That’s sacrilege. AVR can never outperform Separates like Pre-Pros.

AVRs are daft, idiotic, and, thus must be phased out.

How do you explain the AVR's slightly better pre amp specs, even THD+N ? The prepro's SNR looked much better, but that obviously have to be compared with the Marantz power amps due to fact that the AVR's number is for input to speaker output? When you do, you will see that the AVR's SNR fits in between the power amp MM8077's RCA and XLR's 114.83/104.31 dBrA (note: so much for those who insist on XLR even on short runs).

For the AVR, the THD was measured at the speaker outputs, yet the number was still a touch lower than that of the AV8802, measured at the pre out, that's amazing.

In regard to @M.Code's point about the 1 kHz vs full bandwidth output figures, on Gene's test bench, the little AVR-X3300W's dropped from 119/165 W to 105/154 W at 0.1% into 8/4 ohm. That's a drop of only 13.3% 8 ohm, and even less into 4 ohm by only 7.1%. I know, that's just one example.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

If Mr. M.Code has AP graphs that show the X7200WA drop 25% I would like to see it, but the Marantz power amps (e.g. MM8077) may have similar/comparable drops in output too.

Now, it's worth noting that my ex AVR-4308CI did the following on the S&V bench, 2 channel driven:

198.6/218.9 W into 8 ohm, at 0.1% THD+N
298.0 W/343.4 W into 4 ohm, at 1% THD+N

In that case, even with a 25% drop in output on a full bandwidth test, the numbers would still have met or exceeded the specifications.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements#wEeQRQ23xtk5Ez8e.99

AVRs no doubt have to compromise but they do represent better values for a lot of people, and occasionally, some may even do better than some separates on bench tests done in the same lab.

Let's hope Gene will do his full reviews on both the X8500H and AV8805 soon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How do you explain the AVR's slightly better pre amp specs, even THD+N ? The prepro's SNR looked much better, but that obviously have to be compared with the Marantz power amps due to fact that the AVR's number is for input to speaker output? When you do, you will see that the AVR's SNR fits in between the power amp MM8077's RCA and XLR's 114.83/104.31 dBrA (note: so much for those who insist on XLR even on short runs).

For the AVR, the THD was measured at the speaker outputs, yet the number was still a touch lower than that of the AV8802, measured at the pre out, that's amazing.

In regard to @M.Code's point about the 1 kHz vs full bandwidth output figures, on Gene's test bench, the little AVR-X3300W's dropped from 119/165 W to 105/154 W at 0.1% into 8/4 ohm. That's a drop of only 13.3% 8 ohm, and even less into 4 ohm by only 7.1%. I know, that's just one example.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

If Mr. M.Code has AP graphs that show the X7200WA drop 25% I would like to see it, but the Marantz power amps (e.g. MM8077) may have similar/comparable drops in output too.

Now, it's worth noting that my ex AVR-4308CI did the following on the S&V bench, 2 channel driven:

198.6/218.9 W into 8 ohm, at 0.1% THD+N
298.0 W/343.4 W into 4 ohm, at 1% THD+N

In that case, even with a 25% drop in output on a full bandwidth test, the numbers would still have met or exceeded the specifications.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements#wEeQRQ23xtk5Ez8e.99

AVRs no doubt have to compromise but they do represent better values for a lot of people, and occasionally, some may even do better than some separates on bench tests done in the same lab.

Let's hope Gene will do his full reviews on both the X8500H and AV8805 soon.

Yeah, you and I and a few others know that AVRs can measure just as well and even better than “separates”.

I definitely think the $1,000 Denon X3000 Series that could be purchased on sale for $599 new or $484 like-new from Amazon is the best value.

Some guys don’t think these Denon X3000 can power 4 ohms Speakers, but the measurements show they can and our personal experiences show they can. I’ve used the Denon 3000s AVR to power just about every speaker I’ve own - B&W 802D2, KEF 201/2, RBH T2 tower , RBH SVT tower, Phil3, etc.

I’ve also used the Denon 3000s to sing Karaoke during family parties which get extremely loud with 30 people trying to talk over each other while the singers are screaming on the microphones in a wide-open 20x22x13 room sitting 18FT away.

As long as I have a 120mm fan atop the X3000s to pull out heat, the x3000s AVR can play tough all day long.

So AVRs do have a permanent place in the world of Home theater and anyone who disagrees is just wrong.

 

[panteragstk]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the receiver vs separates debate...again.

Let's just talk about the heat of 13 amps in one box...

 

[PENG]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the receiver vs separates debate...again.

Let's just talk about the heat of 13 amps in one box...

Sure, I tried to answer a question with examples that's all. The newer Denon AVRs have build in fans, two, I think. So unless people try to listen to 13 channel stereo at reference level, it won't be an issue. As mentioned already, it is a good idea to add an external fan anyway. Also, for those who listen to spl well below reference (75 dB average or less for me), I doubt the fans will turn on at all. In fact, my AV8802 runs just as warm as my ex AVRs.

I actually prefer 3 or 4 boxes if I have a large room and can hide some of them, but one box can work too if designed and built properly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, when you have ventilation and silent 120mm USB fans that cost about $10 from Amazon, heat is not an issue.

Placing fans atop the Denon X3000s AVRs makes the AVR operate extremely COOL after a whole day of high-volume Karaoke from 18 FT distance!!!

Heat is not an issue when you have these fans and ventilation!

 

[PENG]

Yeah, when you have ventilation and silent 120mm USB fans that cost about $10 from Amazon, heat is not an issue.

Placing fans atop the Denon X3000s AVRs makes the AVR operate extremely COOL after a whole day of high-volume Karaoke from 18 FT distance!!!

Heat is not an issue when you have these fans and ventilation!

It is a good idea to use such a cheap and near silent fan to help cool an AVR, especially one that cost more than a few hundred dollars. I use two to help cool my AV8801 and one for the 8 channel power amp. Either could do without the fans, but I want them to last much longer.

 

[KEW]

... after a whole day of high-volume Karaoke from 18 FT distance!!!

You must have one hell of a budget for booze!!!
Just sayin'!

 

[gene]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the receiver vs separates debate...again.

Let's just talk about the heat of 13 amps in one box...

Actually I bet this receiver doesn't run extremely hot during steadystate since it likely has a very low Class A bias. My Yamaha RX-Z7 on the the other hand is a space heater. Back when there were only 7 channels in a receiver, "audiophile" still had a bit of focus to these products ; )

 

[yepimonfire]

Sure, I tried to answer a question with examples that's all. The newer Denon AVRs have build in fans, two, I think. So unless people try to listen to 13 channel stereo at reference level, it won't be an issue. As mentioned already, it is a good idea to add an external fan anyway. Also, for those who listen to spl well below reference (75 dB average or less for me), I doubt the fans will turn on at all. In fact, my AV8802 runs just as warm as my ex AVRs.

I actually prefer 3 or 4 boxes if I have a large room and can hide some of them, but one box can work too if designed and built properly.

Even 13ch stereo wouldn't stress it, since each additional speaker adds 3dB you'd just turn it lower.

I have serious doubts about the ability for a single AVR to handle 13ch simultaneously at near reference volume. Atmos allows a total of 105dB of headroom to each channel, and in my experience, the heights and surrounds are highly active in Atmos mixes. Even at lower levels, 13x50w=750w, with an efficiency of 70% you're still looking at over a kW of power just for the amplifier.

I remember when flagship 7ch avrs were tipping the scale at 50lbs.

Regardless, I'm happy to see an AVR that goes beyond 11ch. I think 13.2ch or 15.2ch is plenty for a home Atmos setup. I would definitely take advantage of a 9.1.4 configuration before a 7.1.6, the gap between the fronts and surrounds is probably the biggest shortcoming of 5.1/7.1 setups, and humans really aren't that good at discerning height location like the are front and sides


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[PENG]

Even 13ch stereo wouldn't stress it, since each additional speaker adds 3dB you'd just turn it lower.

Exactly, I was just trying to make a point, by exaggerating 1000%, thought it was obvious.

I have serious doubts about the ability for a single AVR to handle 13ch simultaneously at near reference volume.

I thought you just made the point that each speakers would contribute 3 dB, there may be some cancellation but I did buy your point to some degree, changed your mind now?

Even at lower levels, 13x50w=750w, with an efficiency of 70% you're still looking at over a kW of power just for the amplifier.

50 W X13 average would be very high level. I rarely see my amps output more than 0.5 W (average) per channel. If you do need your amp to output 13X50 W average, you should definitely plug a real power amp to a dedicated 20A circuit, and if you still want to allow for 20 dB reserve on top, then your choice would probably be a rack of multiple bridged proamps and probably multiple 20A circuits.

I remember when flagship 7ch avrs were tipping the scale at 50lbs.

No fans, lots of heat sinks, sure, but with fans, less heat sinks and generous use of AL and plastic, you can shed a lot of weight. You can also have transformer designed for lower weight to kVA ratio.

Regardless, I'm happy to see an AVR that goes beyond 11ch. I think 13.2ch or 15.2ch is plenty for a home Atmos setup. I would definitely take advantage of a 9.1.4 configuration before a 7.1.6, the gap between the fronts and surrounds is probably the biggest shortcoming of 5.1/7.1 setups, and humans really aren't that good at discerning height location like the are front and sides


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I don't mind them having that many pre-outs but prefer fewer channels, as long as all channels are assignable.

 

[Bob Leonard]

I was looking on the Denon website and noticed on the back of the AVR-X8500h a labeled “Denon Link HD"
connection what is this connection for?

 

[Davor Apollonio]

I was looking on the Denon website and noticed on the back of the AVR-X8500h a labeled “Denon Link HD"
connection what is this connection for?

Connecting a Blu-ray Disc player compatible with the Denon Link HD function
By making a Denon Link HD connection to a player compatible with the Denon Link HD function, you can enjoy higher quality playback compared with when only the HDMI connector connection is made.
Both HDMI and Denon Link HD connections are required for this connection method.

When connected to a compatible Denon disc player, Denon Link HD system provides a dedicated pathway for the critical timing data to eliminate distortion caused by jitter errors in the main data stream.

 

[PENG]

I was looking on the Denon website and noticed on the back of the AVR-X8500h a labeled “Denon Link HD"
connection what is this connection for?

It is sort of an Ethernet connection that works with Denon players such as the DVD3910, 3930, 5910 etc. It's a great feature if you have one of those players and enjoy DVD-A and SACDs.

 

[Bob Leonard]

The Denon web site doesn't show any Denon players. Is there going to be a player that is compatible? Maybe something new soon to be produced.

 

[yepimonfire]

I thought you just made the point that each speakers would contribute 3 dB, there may be some cancellation but I did buy your point to some degree, changed your mind now?



50 W X13 average would be very high level. I rarely see my amps output more than 0.5 W (average) per channel. If you do need your amp to output 13X50 W average, you should definitely plug a real power amp to a dedicated 20A circuit, and if you still want to allow for 20 dB reserve on top, then your choice would probably be a rack of multiple bridged proamps and probably multiple 20A circuits.

Only in multichannel stereo. Read the Dolby Atmos specifications white paper, it states that EACH channel, not combined, must be capable of a peak of 105dB, this includes both speaker and amplifier headroom, obviously this is at reference levels.

Secondly, it's not hard to meet or exceed a 100w requirement if you actually do play back movie at or near reference levels. Even with a relatively decent sensitivity of 91dB, 100w equates to about 101dB at 3m. 0dBfs peaks, though brief in duration, occur quite regularly in many action movies, as I've demonstrated before.

Testing for Rms voltage during music playback doesn't translate to the headroom required during movies, even music with a large dynamic range is often limited to only 10dB, whereas movies require 20dB of dynamic headroom.

This doesn't mean an AVR absolutely has to be capable of 100w into 13 channels simultaneously, but it does mean at least some external amplification will be necessary. Even if you use a 20a circuit, unless it's fit with a 20 ac plug and receptacle, under UL rules, it's still limited to 15a.


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