Denon AVC-A1H, special request for Gene to review and bench test this new beast!

Would you like to see the new Denon flaghsip AVR reviewed and measured by Gene, Audioholics?


  • Total voters
    45
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The fact is, AVR and non-powered speakers and subs (within same brand) are a lot less expensive than AVP and powered speakers.

For example, the least expensive AVP from Massimo is $3200 (AV7706, made in Vietnam).

Imagine how expensive the Revel Salon2 and B&W 801D4 would be if they put amps inside them?

Unless you think most people are getting a lot richer, why would most people buy AVP and powered speakers?

About 90% of HT consumers buy AVR, not AVP. Probably 99% of consumers buy passive speakers. For a very good reason.
I may be an old dog, but I think I am younger in outlook and more open to new ideas than most of you.

The only reason that AVPs cost more than AVRs is marketing, and the idea they are higher end. Of course they are cheaper to produce, to deny that is silly.

So if new technology reduces the demand for AVRs, and increases the demand for AVPs, then the tables are turned, I would think you would find that AVPs could be produced for about half the cost of an AVR.

Putting 15 amps in one box with on board processing driven from one power supply, is just silly, and a recipe for poor performance and premature failure. No one in their right minds should consider the purchase of such a contraption. Unless all those amps are heavily biased to class B and away from A it will be a toaster. I would really like to see what the low level distortion figures look like. It is low level distortion measurements that really unravel the crossover distortion of excess class B biasing.

As I keep saying your cars have had active speakers for years, and failure even in a harsh environment is rare. Our threads are just littered with AVR failures and this will worsen on the current trajectory.

Passive speakers waste a lot of amp power, at least half, and in three ways, and in those with higher order filters, a lot more. Who votes for that when there are alternatives?

The facts are that active speakers will not have their power shared from a unitary power supply with other amps.

The big advantage though is the active crossovers allow for huge benefits in performance not possible with passive crossovers.

I mentioned one just recently, and that is by being able to make truly integrated designs and increase power in the crucial power band. This is huge, and these speakers will deliver the goods. When the the lower string section is fill forte, and the huge bass drum is beaten, then active designs can deliver in a way that totally passive designs never will.

I have been working with active crossovers for half a century now, and I know the benefits first hand. That is what the pros do. For years now, no pro installation would have passive crossovers, if for no other reason than the fact the it can not come close to competing on efficiency. The new start ups like Sigberg Audio and Double Dutch are the new flag bearers, and they are on the right track. Designing AVRs with 15 power amps is definitely the wrong track on the route to crazy town.

The other issue is that this change to active, will make installations, especially larger more complex one easier and simpler. Just look at the clutter on the back of an AVR, especially the speaker terminals. The next generation of AVPs will have an ethernet port for each speaker, and a Cat cable to each speaker. I suspect it will not be too long before the AVP will be a very small box and just one ethernet port to your router, and the speakers connected to the router.

Wake up you guys, you are clinging to the dark ages, and big changes are afoot, which will bring huge cost savings and far improved performance. We are now in early transition and resistance is useless.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Hello Gene,

So far you have only measured the recent Marantz flagship AVR, the SR8015, it will be fantastic if you can get the Denon A1H from your contacts at Masimo and do a full battery of bench tests on it.

The *OFFICIAL* 2023 Denon AVR / AVC - A1H 15.4ch Flagship AVR Owners Thread | Page 34 | AVS Forum

This thing has 4 XLRs for subwoofer outputs that apparently can be re-assigned for use with the FL/FR/C so there will be plenty of voltage for the best Purifi/Hypex/Benchmark amps that have relatively lower gain.

If tested well in every metric you use, it could potentially be a real alternative to separates such as Massimo's own AV10/AC10.

You have already measured one Marantz flagship, and one Anthem flagship AVR (actually you also measured the A6A that is very close to being a Yamaha flagship) so it is high time to measure a Denon as well right?:) Since you were a real practicing electrical engineer in the highly related EE field (telecomm iirc..), I think you are the best person in the audio world to review and measure the highly sophisticated SOTA kind of AV receivers.

Thank you in advance
Marantz is sending me the AV10 and AMP10 next week so I will be bench testing those. I may request an A1H sent to Matthew Poes which he can bench test for us and also test out the bass routing stuff they offer. Anthem wants us to bench test the AVM90. So many products, so little time. I wish I had someone local that could do this for me with my AP.
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
AVRs are yesterdays news. Time to move on to AVPs and active speakers. The sooner AVRs are gone, the better off everyone will be.

I see we have now descended into extreme absurdity. We now have 15 power amps, class A/B at that, in one box! This along with the preamps and complex processing circuitry.
Such a contraption is way beyond absurd. Anyone who buys one of those must have money to burn. You can guarantee frustration and being promptly out of pocket with that purchase.
Look at the new macintosh AVR ... with only 7 powered channels....
That might be a pointer to a new direction - AVR's with a limited number of channels, but flexible channel allocation, so you can choose where to allocate the included power amps, and where to power externally.

I use an AVR, but power my main L/C/R externally (not an uncommon solution) - and am happy to use the built in power amps for surround/heights - but the constraints on which amp can do which channel, means I do not get optimal use of the built in circuitry... 3 channels are always wasted.
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
While in a perfect audio world I suppose everything would be separates....and all connected via balanced connections...but since most people don't care that much, pretty sure the avr is around for a while....not even much choice in pre-pro these days.
Many components with XLR balanced ouputs, aren't actually internally balanced circuits - the output board just converts - for optimal results, they should be dual differential balanced circuits throughout.... but I don't think any of them are!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Marantz is sending me the AV10 and AMP10 next week so I will be bench testing those. I may request an A1H sent to Matthew Poes which he can bench test for us and also test out the bass routing stuff they offer. Anthem wants us to bench test the AVM90. So many products, so little time. I wish I had someone local that could do this for me with my AP.
Thank you for the advanced notice. I look forward to reading your review on the AV10/AMP10. The SR8015 measured better than the AV8805 but I am sure the AV10 will earn back the rightful top spot for an AVP, and push its AVR cousin to the second best spot. It would have been great if you do the A1H yourself with the AP, but I understand it is a time consuming process, wish I was nearby and could help. No one is going to send an AP and an eighty lbs (with packaging) AVR all the way to Canada so we have to settle for Poe's hopefully not too shabby instrument.:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Many components with XLR balanced ouputs, aren't actually internally balanced circuits - the output board just converts - for optimal results, they should be dual differential balanced circuits throughout.... but I don't think any of them are!
I would disagree a little to the "should be" part. Yes there are the "balanced" and then the "fully balanced". If the manufacturer just use the term "balanced" to describe their amp then I would assume they are not fully balanced and would have no idea how the scheme is implemented. It it is described as fully balanced, then it probably (though still not 100% sure) means they use differential circuitry throughout the signal path from input to output, and maintain differential connections at all stages. It is a choice in the implementations scheme, there is no consensus in the audio world that it has to be (or should be) done in one way or another.

I know you are only talking about the difference in implementation. In terms of sound quality benefits (in theory, potentially..):

Gene mentioned (in his review on the Denon AVP iirc.) that one of the advantage for the fully differential input to output implementation is that aside from noise reduction, it also reduce harmonics distortions due to the even harmonics being cancelled out.

In my opinion, many fully differential designs may not actually realize the theoretical benefits in amps in the lower price range because even if the design is the best, I am not sure if the parts they use will have good enough tolerances to ensure near perfect matching between the two legs of the differential circuits. For example, if they don't match 100%, then in theory you will not get the harmonics cancellation, that's no problem as I don't believe there will be audible difference anyway, and many people would even argue they don't want the even harmonics cancelled anyway, but it does mean it would then be a waste of resource, i.e., why not using stay single ended and save a ton of money?
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I’m a little surprised that the status of DLBC feature update is still unclear for a new expensive flagship receiver like this one. So DLBC continues to be vaporware from D&M. For those wanting this feature it’s better to wait or look elsewhere.

>>>As of the time of writing, neither Dirac nor Denon has confirmed whether the AVR-A1H will eventually get the excellent multi-sub Dirac Live Bass Controlfeature, but it seems likely. Our friends at Audio Advice believe it will be added next year. As for whether the AVR-A1H will also get the brand new Dirac Live Active Room Treatment feature when it becomes available later this year, that’s anyone’s guess.<<<
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I voted for you guys to bench test the flagship like @PENG I didn't want to be greedy and ask for the 4800. Whatever you guys chose to do I sure appreciate your efforts. Thank you!
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I just confirmed with Denon engineering that the AVR-A1H will do 70% (105wpc) with 9CH driven, 8 ohms clean. Factoring efficiency, that's about 1,400 watts power consumption True beast!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I just confirmed with Denon engineering that the AVR-A1H will do 70% (105wpc) with 9CH driven, 8 ohms clean. True beast!
How does that ACD spec affect typical use? Kinda disappointing with the marketing of the power supply it can't actually do better than that (personally not an issue, but it will disappoint or cause some to complain most likely). That it at least matches their Marantz "promise" doesn't make it a true beast IMO. Maybe with an imbalance in distance/sensitivity with surrounds with certain material this might be important?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
How does that ACD spec affect typical use? Kinda disappointing with the marketing of the power supply it can't actually do better than that (personally not an issue, but it will disappoint or cause some to complain most likely). That it at least matches their Marantz "promise" doesn't make it a true beast IMO. Maybe with an imbalance in distance/sensitivity with surrounds with certain material this might be important?
Your post makes no sense. 105wpc w 9CH driven from an AVR from a 15A outlet is pretty incredible. This amp can easily do 175wpc w 2ch driven into 8 ohm and almost 300wpc into 4 ohm, 2ch driven. The large power supply ensures large dynamic reserves for transients. I consider that a victory. Plus 5 year warranty and the best HDMI out of any processor on the market right now.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Your post makes no sense. 105wpc w 9CH driven from an AVR from a 15A outlet is pretty incredible. This amp can easily do 175wpc w 2ch driven into 8 ohm and almost 300wpc into 4 ohm, 2ch driven. The large power supply ensures large dynamic reserves for transients. I consider that a victory. Plus 5 year warranty and the best HDMI out of any processor on the market right now.
I already have similar from my 4520.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I already have similar from my 4520.
By similar you mean no Dolby Atmos, DTSX, Auro 3D, 2 sub outs, no Dirac, no PC Audyssey, no Heos, no 8K support and only 9ch of amplification and a smaller power supply?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
By similar you mean no Dolby Atmos, DTSX, Auro 3D, 2 sub outs, no Dirac, no PC Audyssey, no Heos, no 8K support and only 9ch of amplification and a smaller power supply?
No, just the amp section, so just saying it isn't particularly unusual in that respect. I think most of the amps sections in this range follow this lead with/without additional modules. I would love to see some very detailed tests with all/various channels in play just rather than main two....

I always appreciate everyone's third party views/analysis of gear beyond the brand's press release....

ps a bigger power supply for additional channels should merely be expected at the flagship level, no?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
No, just the amp section, so just saying it isn't particularly unusual in that respect. I think most of the amps sections in this range follow this lead with/without additional modules. I would love to see some very detailed tests with all/various channels in play just rather than main two....

I always appreciate everyone's third party views/analysis of gear beyond the brand's press release....

ps a bigger power supply for additional channels should merely be expected at the flagship level, no?
The bigger centralized power supply will allow for better power in 2CH driven and especially dynamic power. I suspect this receiver will be the most powerful Denon has made since the AVR-5805.
 

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