Denon and Marantz could cease operations in 2025

[isolar8001]

Jumping the gun or ?

Denon, Marantz, Klipsch, and Other Legacy Audio Brands Could Disappear by 2025 as Sales Crash

Major audio brands may not survive another year as parent companies struggle to stay afloat.

www.headphonesty.com

Denon/Marantz - the end is near

Denon/Marantz the end: https://www.channelnews.com.au/former-sound-united-business-could-be-discontinued-next-year-after-falling-revenues-no-buyer-and-losses-claims-new-director/ The Denon X800 and Marantz Cinema series lines may be the last ever as Sound United is about to go belly up...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Jumping the gun or ?

Denon, Marantz, Klipsch, and Other Legacy Audio Brands Could Disappear by 2025 as Sales Crash

Major audio brands may not survive another year as parent companies struggle to stay afloat.

www.headphonesty.com

Denon/Marantz - the end is near

Denon/Marantz the end: https://www.channelnews.com.au/former-sound-united-business-could-be-discontinued-next-year-after-falling-revenues-no-buyer-and-losses-claims-new-director/ The Denon X800 and Marantz Cinema series lines may be the last ever as Sound United is about to go belly up...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I have been telling you all for some time that consumer audio and high end AV in particular has been on the road to oblivion for some time.

The first mistake is making people think they need more than two channels for most purposes. They don't.
Very few rooms actually benefit from surround formats, and trying to impose it, is a downgrade from two channel.
The market for all this is tiny. So no wonder the soundbar market is booming. People made to think they have multichannel audio when they have nothing of the kind.

The next problem is that the electronic budget goes to mobile devices and computers. These are pretty much essential to function in modern society. This means that these purchases are not discretionary but essential for daily life and work pretty much. So that takes care of the electronic budget that would have gone to a stereo system back in the seventies and nineties and actually up to the nineties for many.

I have been pointing this out for some time that the current AV infrastructure is dead ending and will unless people listen up.

Acknowledge that the electronics budget is now into mobile devices and home PCs.

Now make use of those purchases which most people have. Unless you are into vinyl or magnetic tape, you should not need an integrated amp, separates, an AVP or AVR.

Use the current internet infrastructure for audio and AV.

With active speakers with Wi-Fi capability it could all be controlled from your mobile devices. That means audio and vision, all in the palm of your hand.

We have a thread restarted about impedance switches on receivers. What this all actually illustrates is that AVRs and passive speakers are inept devices and were an interim solution at best. An active speaker has the transducers and amps joined at the hip. That is the correct way to engineer it.

Consumers can then just add speakers or not as to their desires and suitability of their domestic spaces. It is easy and adds to the utility of their costly devices they have already paid for, are are generally required to have.

The market decline and profitability of Denon/Marantz is proof of what I am telling you. I have seen this coming for some time. The lack of imagination and invention in this whole arena has been leaving me dumbfounded.

 

[jinjuku]

I think the never ending 'how many discrete channels' in an effort to drive increased selling of qnty, whether it's channels of amplification/speakers, reselling the same material in new formats, have also driven complexity. Something 99% of consumers aren't going to stomach.

Add to that the incredible amount of engineering that it takes to make the playback smooth and widely supported is a huge budget suck.

 

[Hobbit]

TLS Guy brings up good points. I also believe that a lot of the problem is the complexity. For the average person a home theater is a plug and pray. The whole industry is devoid of good and followed standards to simplify setup and use.

Why shouldn't all the devices recognize each other and set themselves up appropriately? Or at least bring up a step-by-step setup Gui on the TV when a new device is added. I've been to people's houses and found that they aren't taking advantage of features ALL their HT components have. Like defaulting to using 4k and HDR when supported on all their devices. Then they stare at you dumbfounded as you dig through menus so they can use the features they paid for.

In this day and age, we're also still fumbling with remotes of all things. AVRs should go back to coming with a remote that can control all the components. In the 90s/early 2k my systems did (Sony and B&K). Albeit difficult to program. Nowadays they should all be doing something similar to Roku, for example. When the Roku is plugged into a TV via HDMI it recognizes the TV model and a gui pops up asking if you want to allow the Roku remote to control the TV. It's not perfect, it's still not a one remote solution, but it shows us what can and should be being done.

These are just a couple of examples. Better and easier connectivity to phones for streaming any content would also be a big plus.

IMO, these would be value added costs to the system.

 

[isolar8001]

Good responses...times have changed for sure.
In the early 2000's I made nice money every week fixing PC's.(mainly fixing Windows)
Now, no one cares about PC's. Can't make money on Phones and Tablets.

 

[jinjuku]

Good responses...times have changed for sure.
In the early 2000's I made nice money every week fixing PC's.(mainly fixing Windows)
Now, no one cares about PC's. Can't make money on Phones and Tablets.

It's all turned toaster level commodity.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy brings up good points. I also believe that a lot of the problem is the complexity. For the average person a home theater is a plug and pray. The whole industry is devoid of good and followed standards to simplify setup and use.

Why shouldn't all the devices recognize each other and set themselves up appropriately? Or at least bring up a step-by-step setup Gui on the TV when a new device is added. I've been to people's houses and found that they aren't taking advantage of features ALL their HT components have. Like defaulting to using 4k and HDR when supported on all their devices. Then they stare at you dumbfounded as you dig through menus so they can use the features they paid for.

In this day and age, we're also still fumbling with remotes of all things. AVRs should go back to coming with a remote that can control all the components. In the 90s/early 2k my systems did (Sony and B&K). Albeit difficult to program. Nowadays they should all be doing something similar to Roku, for example. When the Roku is plugged into a TV via HDMI it recognizes the TV model and a gui pops up asking if you want to allow the Roku remote to control the TV. It's not perfect, it's still not a one remote solution, but it shows us what can and should be being done.

These are just a couple of examples. Better and easier connectivity to phones for streaming any content would also be a big plus.

IMO, these would be value added costs to the system.

Exactly. If you have something as powerful as a smartphone in your pocket, then why should you need a remote to get lost in the couch and have to hunt for the one you want?

The industry is long overdue for a massive shake up and if Marantz and Denon have to go to the wall to make way for more imaginative players in the market, then so be it. People will always want good home entertainment, and it is up to imaginative players to provide it. So if Marantz and Denon end up on the ash bin of history, they deserve it. Time for more imaginative players to emerge and thrive.

To expect most of the public to master an AVR just beggars belief. Also a case in point we have a thread running about the 4ohm/8ohm setting. No surprise most of the owners have no clue what this is about. The need for the switch in any event is because AVRs are unfit for purpose and the sooner they are gone the better. None of my power amps need an 8 ohm/4 ohm switch and nor would an active speaker. Just plug it in and connect it to your home ethernet.

I would really encourage AV firms to follow this site. We don't tolerate fools here, and they usually leave in short order, and are not allowed to clutter this space with the nonsense they can on other AVforums. We have a lot of experienced dedicated members here, and we are only to keen to help others enjoy the vast and exponentially expanding world of what is on offer out there. The problem is, that this so called AV industry has made it inaccessible to most and confined to nerds like me. It is just not good enough.

 

[multisport4me]

I have been telling you all for some time that consumer audio and high end AV in particular has been on the road to oblivion for some time.

The first mistake is making people think they need more than two channels for most purposes. They don't.
Very few rooms actually benefit from surround formats, and trying to impose it, is a downgrade from two channel.
The market for all this is tiny. So no wonder the soundbar market is booming. People made to think they have multichannel audio when they have nothing of the kind.

The next problem is that the electronic budget goes to mobile devices and computers. These are pretty much essential to function in modern society. This means that these purchases are not discretionary but essential for daily life and work pretty much. So that takes care of the electronic budget that would have gone to a stereo system back in the seventies and nineties and actually up to the nineties for many.

I have been pointing this out for some time that the current AV infrastructure is dead ending and will unless people listen up.

Acknowledge that the electronics budget is now into mobile devices and home PCs.

Now make use of those purchases which most people have. Unless you are into vinyl or magnetic tape, you should not need an integrated amp, separates, an AVP or AVR.

Use the current internet infrastructure for audio and AV.

With active speakers with Wi-Fi capability it could all be controlled from your mobile devices. That means audio and vision, all in the palm of your hand.

We have a thread restarted about impedance switches on receivers. What this all actually illustrates is that AVRs and passive speakers are inept devices and were an interim solution at best. An active speaker has the transducers and amps joined at the hip. That is the correct way to engineer it.

Consumers can then just add speakers or not as to their desires and suitability of their domestic spaces. It is easy and adds to the utility of their costly devices they have already paid for, are are generally required to have.

The market decline and profitability of Denon/Marantz is proof of what I am telling you. I have seen this coming for some time. The lack of imagination and invention in this whole arena has been leaving me dumbfounded.

Do we know which of the brands are losing money? Are all of them? Or is it possible Denon & Marantz are solid but Definitive and Polk are losers? To me the problem lies in mismanagement (Masimo was an absurd acquirer) and too many brands followed by your general theory that the available market has shrunk for various reasons. One big reason posited on another forum is simply that we're a bunch of old farts and our kids can give a rats-a$$ about big screens or high-end audio. They watch Tiktoc on their iPhones and listen to music with their AirPods. As the market "ages out" the available market will constrict even more and there is no way all of those brands can survive.

 

[TLS Guy]

Do we know which of the brands are losing money? Are all of them? Or is it possible Denon & Marantz are solid but Definitive and Polk are losers? To me the problem lies in mismanagement (Masimo was an absurd acquirer) and too many brands followed by your general theory that the available market has shrunk for various reasons. One big reason posited on another forum is simply that we're a bunch of old farts and our kids can give a rats-a$$ about big screens or high-end audio. They watch Tiktoc on their iPhones and listen to music with their AirPods. As the market "ages out" the available market will constrict even more and there is no way all of those brands can survive.

My guess it is pretty much everything. Receivers are now highly complex and there are lots of licensing fees to each unit, Audyssey, Dirac, HDMI, Dolby codecs to name a few. They might make some profit on the AVPs, as they charge more and they have no amps!

Speakers have always been close to a lost cause as far as profitability.

 

[Hobbit]

One big reason posited on another forum is simply that we're a bunch of old farts and our kids can give a rats-a$$ about big screens or high-end audio. They watch Tiktoc on their iPhones and listen to music with their AirPods. As the market "ages out" the available market will constrict even more and there is no way all of those brands can survive.

I see this this type of comment on the guitar forums I go to. I call it the Curmudgeons effect. Kids nowadays blah blah blah.

To counterpoint, how many of us had an HT or if old enough, an audiophile quality 2 channel systems when we were in our 20s? Back then we were in college and moving from apartment to apartment. It wasn't until I was older and bought my first house that I started putting together a higher end system. Yes, I do see some truth to it. My GF's kids will watch movies on their smart phone with buds in their ears. But usually it's only because they figured out how to stream movies still in the theater on their phones or we're not home and they're watching TV shows while we're dining out.

One thing I have to give Apple credit for is taking ideas and making them user friendly and accessible. Look what they did with the mp3 player and smartphone. They also have a far reaching influence. Even if they didn't invent it or even simplify a technology, they can make it cool. If Apple bought Marantz, rebranded it, massaged it to make it user friendly, made it to work seamlessly with their phones, Apple TV (if this functionality isn't just built into the AVR), and TVs, I'm sure it would be a big boon to the industry. It would raise the bar and others would have to follow suit. Not that I would expect the kids to go overboard with a high end system for reasons I previously stated.

 

[TLS Guy]

I see this this type of comment on the guitar forums I go to. I call it the Curmudgeons effect. Kids nowadays blah blah blah.

To counterpoint, how many of us had an HT or if old enough, an audiophile quality 2 channel systems when we were in our 20s? Back then we were in college and moving from apartment to apartment. It wasn't until I was older and bought my first house, that I started putting together a higher end system. Yes, I do see some truth to it. My GF's kids will watch movies on their smart phone with buds in their ears. But usually it's only because they figured out how to stream movies still in the theater on their phones or we're not home and they're watching TV shows while we're dining out.

One thing I have to give Apple credit for is taking ideas and making them user friendly and accessible. Look what they did with the mp3 player and smartphone. They also have a far reaching influence. Even if they didn't invent it or even simplify a technology, they can make it cool. If Apple bought Marantz, rebranded it, massaged it to make it user friendly, made it to work seamlessly with their phones, Apple TV (if this functionality isn't just built into the AVR), and TVs, I'm sure it would be a big boon to the industry. It would raise the bar and others would have to follow suit. Not that I would expect the kids to go overboard with a high end system for reasons I previously stated.

No it is active Ethernet connected speakers plus the software on phones and tablets, that Apple need to pursue. Unless you are into vinyl then receivers and AVPs are redundant. These systems I envisage, have the potential of much improved quality at less cost, plus expandability by adding active speakers as funds permit.

Our infrastructure we have now is outdated and creating needless expense, as well as cluttering up living space.

 

[Hobbit]

No it is active Ethernet connected speakers plus the software on phones and tablets, that Apple need to pursue. Unless you are into vinyl then receivers and AVPs are redundant. These systems I envisage, have the potential of much improved quality at less cost, plus expandability by adding active speakers as funds permit.

Our infrastructure we have now is outdated and creating needless expense, as well as cluttering up living space.

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not completely buying into it how you're envisioning it. I do like the direction you're taking it! For instance, I would still prefer some sort of dedicated unit for the HT. Something like a Google/Apple display comes to mind rather than on individually owned devices. In this manner it could also be a multipurpose device. Then a remote isn't needed and it's accessible to anyone in the room. One just talks or touches the display. There will also be fewer licensing issues this way. It could be a convertible unit like the google tablets that mount on a base to also be a display.

It's still an evolution. And hypothetically an Apple or Google buying a brand like Marantz or Denon to get their feet wet in the HT world would be a start in that direction.

 

[highfigh]

Many people don't want to learn anything that's complex. They say they want 'immersive experiences' but that's just buzz words- they want plug & play, as easy as possible. People who have more money than they could ever spend will buy this stuff, but mainstream AV people are buying sound bars and subwoofers, SONOS/HEOS/MusicCast type stuff that connects easily, via an app. It works, sounds OK and it gets them where they want to go. The big systems are still being sold and installed, but only in high end homes- most people don't have the space for a full-blown theater and even if they do, they don't want to use a room for only one purpose.

11 channels? Who the eff told the manufacturers that people want so many, Hollyweird? That's the hellhole that's responsible for HDMI.

 

[Matt34]

I think it really comes down to the state of the economy more than anything. Discretionary spending for a lot of folks has dwindled or disappeared. All while the companies are paying more than ever for manufacturing and overseas shipping cost.
Hi-fi home audio is such a niche market, this news is not that surprising .