Dayton Ultimax 12 Build

[MrBoat]

Still haven't applied the veneer or paint. It has definitely gotten better in use. It really sounds good. I have the high pass set at 30 and even that can get ridiculous with music. Currently have the crossover in the AVR set at 80hz. On the inuke 3000dsp, I have filter 1 active in parametric EQ, with the gain set at 2.0 db, Frequency at 30hz, quality type at LS6. Admittedly, I have no idea what any of this does, if anything at all but something sounded righteous so I left it at that. There is no documentation that I can find with regard to subwoofers and music only. It's as if nobody wants to talk about this for fear of sounding stupid like I do on this subject. Everything is seemingly geared towards boom boom and people trying to get below 20 hz.

All I noticed initially was the sub sounding kind of 'plain', for lack of a better description. Now I am hearing much more detail with bass guitar riffs and tricks, like when a bassist slides up and down the fret board between time. Sometimes it makes me sit up in my chair and pay attention.

Kick drums are seemingly perfect and with authority, yet not overbearing. It's ultimately familiar like what I associate with live shows in the past. It sounds ridiculously real, and just as clear from low volume on up. I can hear the bassist and the drummer keeping time, separately together. So much so, I notice subtle mistakes where they have actually lost time and had to work at it to recover and screwed other instrumentalists up in the process. Often times, disturbingly apparent to where it even messes my focus on the song up, and I have to recover as well.

Between the sub and the Tempests breaking in almost simultaneously, it's a wonderful thing. The 12" Eminence Delta Pro-12A woofer has this rubbery, semi-gummy coating, preservative looking stuff on the surrounds that I think has them a bit stiff, new, out of the box. After pushing them a bit over the last few weeks, I have noticed that they now move a bit more freely than when new. They still don't move as much as a woofer in say, full range speakers that I have owned, but they do actually move now.

I must have lucked out in some kind of music lottery, but the 12" ultimax has proven to be a perfect compliment to these Tempests mid bass in my particular listening environment. I know the size defies all current trends with subwoofers compared to mains, bigger being supposedly better, but I cannot imagine it being so in this situation. After listening to full range speakers with 12" woofers that were rated down to the mid 30's having plenty of bass here, was the deciding factor with the choice. Something you can just sense after listening to music in the same space for 20 years.

With that said, if anyone wants to try and explain the DSP settings on this amp with regard to subwoofers and music, I'm all ears. Whether I have done something right, wrong or not at all by trying the filters I have explained above, or any suggestions to that effect. It's just hard for me to imagine that this listening space is that acoustically friendly, or that I am tonally challenged to where anything would sound good.

 

[lovinthehd]

So with a sealed sub why did you apply a high pass filter at all?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

@MrBoat, have you talked to PE tech? They seem like a good source.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If I can make sense of the manual, ls6(not chevelle) is not quality type. It is a low pass shelf filter setting. To me it looks like you have a first order(6db per octave) shelf at 30hz with a two db gain. Low pass shelf filters are helpful at remaining flat to a certain range, and then raising or lowering gain below that point. Like in a house curve, you can set a shelf at say 200hz, raise the gain at 20hz and it will create a slow rise down from 200-20. Then at 20 you can choose the rolloff. 12db for sealed is typically part of their design. Haven't had any coffee so I hope I didn't butcher that too bad!!! I would guess with the current settings, the little boost at 30 might be highlighting some undertones adding to the realism. I'm sure you have the manual but here's the digital version if it helps.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/248-6706-behringer-nu3000dsp-manual.pdf

 

[MrBoat]

So with a sealed sub why did you apply a high pass filter at all?

I have no idea. Just in case? Because according to what I read, seems that mid 30's is not enough bass. Well. . .if this is only going down to mid 30's for music, that is super low for music that I listen to, then. I should probably set it higher than that then. I must have an incredible amount of room gain or people have just gone a bit bass crazy over the years.

This is all brand new to me. Like I said, I have no idea what I am doing yet. First time with a subwoofer, AVR, or external amp. I have not noticed any effect with the high pass. I forgot about the sealed being a limiter in itself.

Now the other settings I do notice a subtle difference with detail. Only because when I first fire the system up, that filter is off when I connect thru the software. It only comes on when I press that filter button. It depends on where a song is at bass wise though for me to notice. Also, I don't understand the graphs. It's a lot to try and notice all at once.

When I come across a thread looking for details, they are usually very specific and mostly using War of the Worlds as a reference and that's for movies and super low freq concerns. I have yet to come across one in detail for music. I have a friend with multiple large subs and he is more for movies too, and I can't get details from him either, yet music on his system sounds wrong, with way too much bass. I honestly think he doesn't know anything beyond the coined terminology, and that he is down in the mid teens as a benchmark of success.

 

[MrBoat]

@MrBoat, have you talked to PE tech? They seem like a good source.

Only reason I don't like talking to tech is because I would like details. I must have ADD with regard to this science. It would be something I need to read over and over and try physically. I don't want to tie anyone up that long. lol

Laymen's terms. Mostly people talk in terminology and abbreviations and that drives me nuts.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I would guess if you checked your friends channel levels, they'd probably be too hot. Could have a few other setup issues too. Bad XO support etc.

 

[MrBoat]

If I can make sense of the manual, ls6(not chevelle) is not quality type. It is a low pass shelf filter setting. To me it looks like you have a first order(6db per octave) shelf at 30hz with a two db gain. Low pass shelf filters are helpful at remaining flat to a certain range, and then raising or lowering gain below that point. Like in a house curve, you can set a shelf at say 200hz, raise the gain at 20hz and it will create a slow rise down from 200-20. Then at 20 you can choose the rolloff. 12db for sealed is typically part of their design. Haven't had any coffee so I hope I didn't butcher that too bad!!! I would guess with the current settings, the little boost at 30 might be highlighting some undertones adding to the realism. I'm sure you have the manual but here's the digital version if it helps.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/248-6706-behringer-nu3000dsp-manual.pdf

Thank you. This is a start. "Quality type" is what it says next to that setting is why I said that.

Also, I am using the graphic EQ in the windows sound software. It may be just that, and the 80hz crossover in the AVR setting as to why I am getting good sound and the fact that I have quality mains and sub.

 

[MrBoat]

I would guess if you checked your friends channel levels, they'd probably be too hot. Could have a few other setup issues too. Bad XO support etc.

Oh, I'm sure. And he likes it like that. I had seen many of the bands live with the music he listens to and they sounded nothing like that. It sounds more like a collaboration of rock and rap/bass music. Like that rattle your car sheet metal music that we get to share at stoplights with the truly ignorant among us.

 

[MrBoat]

LOL. . .if TLS gets ahold of this, he's going to tell me I have no right using a subwoofer or amp, and that I should throw it all off of a cliff so as not to poison the airwaves.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have no idea. Just in case? Because according to what I read, seems that mid 30's is not enough bass. Well. . .if this is only going down to mid 30's for music, that is super low for music that I listen to, then. I should probably set it higher than that then. I must have an incredible amount of room gain or people have just gone a bit bass crazy over the years.

This is all brand new to me. Like I said, I have no idea what I am doing yet. First time with a subwoofer, AVR, or external amp. I have not noticed any effect with the high pass. I forgot about the sealed being a limiter in itself.

Now the other settings I do notice a subtle difference with detail. Only because when I first fire the system up, that filter is off when I connect thru the software. It only comes on when I press that filter button. It depends on where a song is at bass wise though for me to notice. Also, I don't understand the graphs. It's a lot to try and notice all at once.

When I come across a thread looking for details, they are usually very specific and mostly using War of the Worlds as a reference and that's for movies and super low freq concerns. I have yet to come across one in detail for music. I have a friend with multiple large subs and he is more for movies too, and I can't get details from him either, yet music on his system sounds wrong, with way too much bass. I honestly think he doesn't know anything beyond the coined terminology, and that he is down in the mid teens as a benchmark of success.

You don't need a HPF with a sealed sub, in a ported sub its purpose is to protect the driver below its tuning frequency from over excursion/damage. OTOH you just may not like bass as much as the next guy, many do like it boosted quite a bit, just a preference thing, do what you find most pleasing!

I'm not sure what you're looking for particularly in the threads for details of settings for the sub for music, though. I've never felt compelled to use a HPF on my sealed subs; I do boost my sub level by 2-3 dB over calibrated level generally, a house curve so to speak, just my preference. Are you using Audyssey to calibrate and generally leaving it as set and finding that is too much bass?

 

[MrBoat]

You don't need a HPF with a sealed sub, in a ported sub its purpose is to protect the driver below its tuning frequency from over excursion/damage. OTOH you just may not like bass as much as the next guy, many do like it boosted quite a bit, just a preference thing, do what you find most pleasing!

I'm not sure what you're looking for particularly in the threads for details of settings for the sub for music, though. I've never felt compelled to use a HPF on my sealed subs; I do boost my sub level by 2-3 dB over calibrated level generally, a house curve so to speak, just my preference. Are you using Audyssey to calibrate and generally leaving it as set and finding that is too much bass?

No Audyssey or room correction. I was just curious how I got this to sound as good as it does. It didn't start out that way. Now I can rule out the HPF, or try it more to what the enclosure is tuned for just to see if I can learn something about that setting for my situation. This helps, believe it or not. I had forgotten about that from one day to the next.

The other settings I lifted from other discussions around the web, but there was no explanation further or follow ups to what they had hoped to achieve. With all of the talk about subs and amps, you would think there would be a lot more, in depth details, or documented journeys to that effect.

I agree about preference. But, when you see someone talk out of one side of their mouth with regard to the "accuracy" of their speakers, and then totally go the opposite direction with the bass settings out of the other, it's somewhat perplexing. In these conversations, there is often a statement of, "It sounds like the band was in my living room." I am likely overlooking what exactly they mean by "accuracy."

 

[MrBoat]

I'm not sure what you're looking for particularly in the threads for details of settings for the sub for music, though. I've never felt compelled to use a HPF on my sealed subs; I do boost my sub level by 2-3 dB over calibrated level generally, a house curve so to speak, just my preference. Are you using Audyssey to calibrate and generally leaving it as set and finding that is too much bass?

There are a LOT of settings in this amp. I realize that subwoofer use is just the tip of the iceberg for what these amps are actually designed for. I would just like to learn, or understand what is causing what. What part of the amp can be applied for subwoofer use, or any speaker, really. This knowledge would likely carry over to mini DSP's etc as well, or even the settings in my AVR.

Right now my music sounds great and I have no idea how I did it other than graphic EQ and good speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

No Audyssey or room correction. I was just curious how I got this to sound as good as it does. It didn't start out that way. Now I can rule out the HPF, or try it more to what the enclosure is tuned for just to see if I can learn something about that setting for my situation. This helps, believe it or not. I had forgotten about that from one day to the next.

The other settings I lifted from other discussions around the web, but there was no explanation further or follow ups to what they had hoped to achieve. With all of the talk about subs and amps, you would think there would be a lot more, in depth details, or documented journeys to that effect.

I agree about preference. But, when you see someone talk out of one side of their mouth with regard to the "accuracy" of their speakers, and then totally go the opposite direction with the bass settings out of the other, it's somewhat perplexing. In these conversations, there is often a statement of, "It sounds like the band was in my living room." I am likely overlooking what exactly they mean by "accuracy."

Audyssey is a nice tool to setup levels/delays as well as apply some eq to the sub as needed. Sealed subs aren't tuned as ported subs are. You can always start out with a flat frequency response, the goal of Audyssey is to produce a flat response in music/flat mode vs a slight turn down of the highest frequencies in movie mode (sometimes just called Audyssey in some avrs). This flat response is keyed to playing movies at reference volume (85dB average, allowance for 20dB peaks in the speaker channels, add another 10dB for the lfe channel).

Below reference level the purpose of Audyssey's DynamicEQ is like the loudness contour circuit on old 2ch receivers, it helps boost frequencies at lower volumes to compensate for the way our hearing works. Look up Fletcher Munson and subsequent studies on compensation in lower/higher frequencies at lower volumes. Movies adhere to a particular standardized reference level, too, not necessarily for music (and why Audyssey DynamicEQ has adjustments via Reference Level Offset for music content).

 

[lovinthehd]

There are a LOT of settings in this amp. I realize that subwoofer use is just the tip of the iceberg for what these amps are actually designed for. I would just like to learn, or understand what is causing what. What part of the amp can be applied for subwoofer use, or any speaker, really. This knowledge would likely carry over to mini DSP's etc as well, or even the settings in my AVR.

Right now my music sounds great and I have no idea how I did it other than graphic EQ and good speakers.

If it ain't broke it don't need fixing, right? I don't have a Behringer dsp amp, nor have I familiarized myself with their setup so I'm no help there.

Personally I'm glad my old graphic eq is gone, parametric eq is much better IMO. You might just try using your avr to set things up....forget which avr you have, tho.....the Denon 3808?

 

[MrBoat]

Audyssey is a nice tool to setup levels/delays as well as apply some eq to the sub as needed. Sealed subs aren't tuned as ported subs are. You can always start out with a flat frequency response, the goal of Audyssey is to produce a flat response in music/flat mode vs a slight turn down of the highest frequencies in movie mode (sometimes just called Audyssey in some avrs). This flat response is keyed to playing movies at reference volume (85dB average, allowance for 20dB peaks in the speaker channels, add another 10dB for the lfe channel).

Below reference level the purpose of Audyssey's DynamicEQ is like the loudness contour circuit on old 2ch receivers, it helps boost frequencies at lower volumes to compensate for the way our hearing works. Look up Fletcher Munson and subsequent studies on compensation in lower/higher frequencies at lower volumes. Movies adhere to a particular standardized reference level, too, not necessarily for music (and why Audyssey DynamicEQ has adjustments via Reference Level Offset for music content).

Ok but, what do people do that use dedicated stereo amps that may not have Audyssey, included bass management and/or auto EQ?

 

[MrBoat]

If it ain't broke it don't need fixing, right? I don't have a Behringer dsp amp, nor have I familiarized myself with their setup so I'm no help there.

Personally I'm glad my old graphic eq is gone, parametric eq is much better IMO. You might just try using your avr to set things up....forget which avr you have, tho.....the Denon 3808?

I have the Denon 3805, which sounds really good, btw. Also, some music I like to bypass the AVR and use pure direct. And that's where I start getting curious about the DSP amp settings for the sub.

Just so you know, I don't mean to sound stubborn or in any way disregarding to what you are explaining to me. That is yet another thing I need to learn with the AVR.

It would be nice though, if someone like me (a noob) is doing a google search on DSP/sub settings for music, that they might find a thread with some of this hashed out, at least with music for a starting point. I'm an awesome welder fabricator etc, but I suck with technology.

 

[MrBoat]

As an aside, Audioholics did a pretty extensive review of the Denon 3805, which I was glad to find. I need to likely revisit that as well.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok but, what do people do that use dedicated stereo amps that may not have Audyssey, included bass management and/or auto EQ?

They get avrs or make compromises Some of the 2ch crowd eschews subs altogether. This article addresses the subject somewhat.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have the Denon 3805, which sounds really good, btw. Also, some music I like to bypass the AVR and use pure direct. And that's where I start getting curious about the DSP amp settings for the sub.

Just so you know, I don't mean to sound stubborn or in any way disregarding to what you are explaining to me. That is yet another thing I need to learn with the AVR.

It would be nice though, if someone like me (a noob) is doing a google search on DSP/sub settings for music, that they might find a thread with some of this hashed out, at least with music for a starting point. I'm an awesome welder fabricator etc, but I suck with technology.

I wasn't too far off on model but not familiar with it (I did familiarize myself with the 3808, as I just bought ParadigmDawg's, it's in transit now). Not sure what you mean by bypassing the avr and using pure direct....assume you mean you're just not using any dsp in the avr? Personally I don't use pure direct mode for most content. Just a matter of preference....

Still not sure what you're looking for particularly as far as what to use for dsp based on what other people in their rooms are doing at whatever level they listen at. Personally I'd turn off the HPF and maybe try the Behringer dynamic eq feature in the amp (from the little I've read about its use in that amp). The best way is to get a measurement mic and use REW to see what's going on rather than use your ears alone, then apply eq accordingly (and REW can apply a suggested/calculated eq to your Behringer amp).