Danley Sound Labs THSPUD

WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
It is curious to me that home audio folks haven't adopted pro audio amplifiers. I assume the reasons are:

1. Consumer magazines and reviewers don't deal with them because they are from another industry.

2. The manufacturers don't put much effort into cosmetics because pro audio buyers buy amplification, not cosmetics.

But, nevertheless, the pro audio amps are more rugged and more powerful than consumer amps, they deal with lower impedances more elegantly and they are significantly less expensive because they are normally purchased by businesses rather than consumers who buy primarily on emotion.

Forums like this should change that, I would think. If people can't get information about pro audio from the traditional information media, the internet should be able to fill the void.

I'd like to see AH do a review of the Yamaha P2500S series of amps. That series is not as ugly cosmetically as most pro audio amps, it has heat sensitive fans so they will be quiet in home applications, consumer type binding posts are included in the output connector section and, of course, it will perform transparently like any solid state amps. Consumers are also familiar with the Yamaha name where they might not know Crown, QSC and others who, incidentally, manufacture some outstanding amplifiers.

Personally, I would never spend the money on a consumer amp just to get something pretty. I'd rather just hide the amps on the floor behind the audio system out of sight. I'll get better performance and a lower price from a pro audio amp every time.
As many know, I used to use only high end amps, pre-amps, etc.. Today I use all pro audio amplifiers. The Yamaha PxxxxS series in my 2 channel main system, in fact. I have not suffered any audio quality reduction. None. I have only gained more power.

In my many discussions with people fixed on home audio gear, it is very difficult go convince them that a pro audio amp is not a compromise in sound quality. This is especially true for those that buy higher end speaker systems than the typical Axiom/PSB/Paradigm/etc.. It will be very difficult to change this mindset!

-Chris
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
I second Annunaki's recommendation of using a single channel of the EP2500. It will very likely outperform the monoblock, btw. The EP2500 was measured as 1000 x 2, both channels driven, in 3rd party tests. With only one channel driven, it's power supply would be greatly relieved, and you would likely get 1200 or more watts x 1 at 2 Ohms. And you have a 2nd channel waiting for you if you decided to go with 2 subs down the road......

-Chris
Thanks but I didn't purchase a monoblock.:confused:

I have a two channel QSC PLX2502 and the specs are similar to the Berringer you mention.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
Thanks for the update!

Yeah, you need to play with placement. Also a lot of times those subwoofers are made to be used in at least pairs. ;) 40Hz is a tough place to have to boost.

Quiet in the pro-sound industry has nothing to do with quiet in the consumer industry. You can swap the fans for a quieter model, but, generally they are made to be in a seperate room or the levels are so loud that the fan noise doesn't matter. Those ball bearing fans though are basically silent if you want to modify it, but, honestly, its probably not worth your time unless you can really hear the fans.
The fan noise isn't a problem as the amp is in another room nut would be if it wasn't.

I tried sitting on the THSPUD last night and didn't care for the effect. It was much better than the Buttkickers I tried a couple of years ago but still a little overpowering for HT. I like a good shaking as much as the next guy but that was ridiculous. The effect with music (especially kick drum) was much better but HT was over the top.

For such a big box it is really easy to move around and it's 11" depth/height (depending on orientation) does give me some placement flexibility. I will be trying some other options and playing with levels and EQ today.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
I just ordered an unpowered sub and was wondering what Pro-Audio amps might be good candidates. The manufacturer indicates that the sub presents a 2 ohm load to the map and will require at least 600 watts. They suggested this Danley DSLA 1.7k amp but at $1,600, I think there might be something comparable or better.

I am also considering one of the DSONIC ICE powered Mono block units that will provide more than 1000W @ <$1K.

Comments or recommendations are welcome.:)

BTW, I am building a new equipment closet outside of the HT so fan noise will not be an issue. That said, I would rather have a cool running amp as the closet will be vented into living space via a louvered door.
On my main system I use 2 1400x2 bridged to drive 2 15" Isobarik Subs. They kick. Pro-Amps
http://www.abamps.com/amplifiers.html#1400-2
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
The fan noise isn't a problem as the amp is in another room nut would be if it wasn't.

I tried sitting on the THSPUD last night and didn't care for the effect. It was much better than the Buttkickers I tried a couple of years ago but still a little overpowering for HT. I like a good shaking as much as the next guy but that was ridiculous. The effect with music (especially kick drum) was much better but HT was over the top.

For such a big box it is really easy to move around and it's 11" depth/height (depending on orientation) does give me some placement flexibility. I will be trying some other options and playing with levels and EQ today.
If an acoustically transparent screen is going in, you could always see how it sounds in front.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
If an acoustically transparent screen is going in, you could always see how it sounds in front.
Good idea and one of Tom Danleys recommendations. If I do a new screen/projector I would like it to be a CIH, AT. It seems that the technology isn't quite there so I am holding off a bit. I will be trying some different placements this weekend.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
I have a lot of posts and pictures of the Danley in the unpowered sub amp recommendation thread. Maybe a mod can combine that thread under this one as I think this sub deserves its own thread. Here is my quick take on today’s placement and EQ results.

Inside the Horn Bubble Tom Danley said. That's where you need to be. Boy, he wasn’t kidding. After a couple of weeks of trying to make a side wall placement work, I moved the SPUD to a lying flat directly behind the HT seats position that I had tried when I first got the THSPUD. I set what may be the world’s largest bean bag chair (see photo) on top of it as my new and novel second row seating. I then ran Audyssey MultiEQ and applied the Velo SMS-1 EQ both with and without Audyssey engaged.

The results this time were spectacular. First I used the LFE Demo DVD (#1) and was absolutely blown away with the results. I have heard these demo cuts numerous times but never with the Tapped Horn vent directly behind me. It was a whole new experience. Then I put on the BR POTF disk and listened to the full crash sequence in DTS HDMA. The bass during the planes 360’s was very intense with the Quad Fathoms but nothing like this. Simply the best bass I have ever heard in my room and all this intense pressurization and shaking was achieved with the SPL under 100db @ LP. I could push it harder but why?

The important caveat with the THSPUD is positioning. You simply have to place it near field (either under or directly behind the LP) in order to get the full benefit. I was told this but stubbornly tried to make it work elsewhere as I prefer the side wall position. But this room is all about the sound and the THSPUD is giving me bass like never before.

PSA on the bean bag chair, it was an impulse order on one of those discount internet sites and was described as XL with foam chunks instead of beans. I had purchased one before that was the XXL model so was expecting something smaller than the first chair. When I unboxed it, it was vacuum sealed and heavy. Once I broke the seal it was like the clowns piling out of the car. The stinking this is huge!!! Oh well, It’s comfortable and the THSPUD makes it an e-ticket ride.

 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
To continue my rave review of this amazing subwoofer, we had some neighbors over last night to watch Wall-E. The Pixar folks are making great family movies and Wall-e didn't disappoint. To start, the two kids sat on the bean bag/spud with the adults in the HT chairs. But during the movie everyone wanted their turn on the bb/spud. It is difficult for me to describe this without it sounding like hyperbole, but I have never heard or felt bass like this before.

This single dual 8" driver tapped horn sub blows away any sub or subs I have heard in my room (or anywhere). That would include dual Velo DD-18's, quad JL Fathoms and dual SVS PB-13's. None of these excellent subwoofers produced anywhere near the clean tactile bass that the single THSPUD does. It makes me want to re-watch every bass intense movie scene and since I have 20 of the LFE sample DVD's I will be doing just that.

As for tactile transducers ... when placed near field (like I have it now) you don't need them with this sub. It kicks butt on any TT system. Since it is just the drivers generating the energy it is incredibly intense yet natural. No overhang or bloat, no artificial shaking, just fast clean and very intense bass.

I ran Audyssey again yesterday and once again (about the 50th time) don’t care for the muffling affect it produces. I have the Velo SMS-1 high pass set to 15Hz with 24db slope. I had to do a slight 3db boost in the 35-40HZrange but other than that it is +-3 db, 18-125Hz. I have it level matched with my other speakers so it is not being run hot. Trust me; you would not want to run this sub hot!

The caveats are this is not a pretty product and it is large by virtually any standard. Placement is critical as when I had it standing vertical on the side wall it was a very good but not extraordinary subwoofer. It is possible that two THSPUDS side wall/vertically placed could do what the single unit does near field. I may test that theory if the aesthetic compromise of the near field placement bothers me enough.

It is too bad that Danley isn't a better marketing company as they really have something here. If you are building a HT room and want the ultimate bass, the THSPUD placed near field is the way to go. I was considering and have a great location for an IB sub in my room and was going to do just that if the THSPUD experiment didn't work out. That option is off the table now as I can truthfully say that I don't want/need more bass than this amazing subwoofer can provide.

The Danley THSPUD gets five stars from me. If you ever get the chance to check it out please do.
 
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MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Glad your happy!

I hope you are happy with the QSC also, I would feel bad otherwise. :D

Really another one of those or some modular stage blocks would be an easy way to make a second seating level in there. You'd basically hide the subwoofer and wiring all together by doing that. With a bit of woodwork you could even run some little LED floorlights if you did that since you'll have to run the Speakons to the subwoofer anyways.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
Glad your happy!

I hope you are happy with the QSC also, I would feel bad otherwise. :D

Really another one of those or some modular stage blocks would be an easy way to make a second seating level in there. You'd basically hide the subwoofer and wiring all together by doing that. With a bit of woodwork you could even run some little LED floorlights if you did that since you'll have to run the Speakons to the subwoofer anyways.
Thanks and thanks again for the QSC tip.:cool:

The wiring is already hidden (under base boards) and if I needed more seating (I don't) I would do just that. I'm going to sit tight for a while just enjoy the ride.

Video is next up.
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
Nice write-up, and I'm glad you are happy with it. Danley's products are just not for me...:eek:
I honestly feel my Ultras perform as well as you do about your Danley.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Nice write-up, and I'm glad you are happy with it. Danley's products are just not for me...:eek:
I honestly feel my Ultras perform as well as you do about your Danley.
Which of his products have you heard?

SH50's tops are gold.
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
Which of his products have you heard?

SH50's tops are gold.
Personally, I don't feel the need to listen, nor would I want PA boxes in my present configuration even with the "stellar" performance.

But that's just my own personal opinion. :) As I said, I'm glad RMK is very happy with his. He likes his sound, and I like mine.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
Personally, I don't feel the need to listen, nor would I want PA boxes in my present configuration even with the "stellar" performance.

But that's just my own personal opinion. :) As I said, I'm glad RMK is very happy with his. He likes his sound, and I like mine.
In looking at your system pics, you have your gear in what appears to be the main living space in your home where you are somewhat space limited. Speakers like the JTR’s or Danley’s require a larger room and are clearly not decorator friendly (not sure how you rationalized the stacked PB13’s).

I used to be in your situation and had all my equipment in my family room and I was constantly dealing with aesthetic compromises. Frankly, no matter how you try to dress them up, loudspeakers and big box subwoofers are not what most people (i.e. women) want in their living/family rooms (didn’t I read about a certain someone nagging you?).

When I built the dedicated space, it was so that I could do whatever I wanted (and budget allowed) in the dedicated space and not worry about aesthetics. My primary concern was/is how the system sounds and looks (video wise). That freedom has led me to the equipment you see in this thread and my HT thread. My hope is that you (and all Audioholics) will some day get the freedom to make choices based entirely on what you like. Unfortunately, that requires a very understanding spouse and that is much harder to find than a good sub.:)
 
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MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Frankly, no matter how you try to dress them up, loudspeakers and big box subwoofers are not what most people (i.e. women) want in their living/family rooms)
Nod. I make all kinds of compromises in living room, fortunetly I can get away with a bit more electronics since its kind of a modern designed loft and even though the girlfriend has an influence, I still pay for my apartment so I make the final call haha.

What it all comes down to is we all love music and movies.... but the thing we like most is pu...;):D
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
Had the day off (sick) and spent all afternoon with the system. I re-ran Audyssey using a higher mic position (as was suggested on another forum) and for the first time the results were impressive. I used the Velo SMS-1 to flatten out the LF curve (+-3db 20Hz to 120Hz) but Audyssey had done most of the work. The results were spectacular. The near field located THSPUD simply blows away my quad Fathom setup in bass intensity. For music, I would still give the nod to JL mainly because of the placement behind the LP. The tactile bass is a bit over powering for music but with HT as priority, this is the way to go.

I am anxious to have some of the guys who participated in the Fathom vs SVS sub shootout last year over for listen. I know they will be as amazed with this new setup as I am.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
Another TH-SPUD is on its way. I decided that two will give me more placement options plus Tom Danley had mentioned that ideally they would be used in pairs. One SPUD is soo good I just have to find out what two will do.
Ivan Beaver from Danley just posted this outdoor measurement of the TH-SPUD this morning.

Here is a measurement OUTDOORS of a single TH SPUD, no crossover filters and no eq. Just TEF machine into amplifier Crown CT1610. 2.83V drive level.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
The following was posted by Tom Danley on another Forum. He discusses the design concept of the TH-SPUD and other Tapped Horns subs. I have attached photos a TH-SPUD line drawing showing the box/driver layout. Also there is a picture of four Danley TH-50’s (cousin to the SPUD) doing the LFE as well as their SH-96’s at a DSL (Danley Sound Labs) install at an IMAX location.

Hi All

A few questions have come up as well as a need to explain how two small drivers can make a lot of low bass.
The mouth bubble is an unofficial term and an explanation of what a horn does is needed first.
One thing a horn does is provide what is like a transformer in the acoustic realm, it can (in a perfect world) load the driver with an acoustic load much larger than it would feel based on its radiating area. It is the increase in loading which allows a horn system to have a greater electro acoustic efficiency or as seen by the user, more sound per Watt of input.
This transformer effect also has a high pass filter effect set by the horn’s rate of expansion. For example, if one wants a horn to work to 30Hz, the rate of expansion if its cross section must be at a rate that doubles about every 24 inches. If you make a horn that doubles its area every 12 inches, you have a 60Hz horn instead or if you want 15Hz, it must expand more slowly, doubling its area every 48 inches.
The Horn effect actually extends outside the enclosure to a varying degree.
For example, if one places the spud enclosure in a room corner with the outlet at the floor/wall/wall junction, it is easy to see that the familiar “corner loading” where floor and walls act like a horn in that the expansion is confined to one eighth space.
From where ever the outlet is, keeping the rate of expansion in mind, one can plot out what the confined area is immediately outside the horn is and what ever that rate of expansion is, that is the frequency above which the physical surroundings continue the horns actual acoustic path and length.
To the degree you are within this zone, you are experiencing the low end more like the pressure zone experience in an automobile as opposed to the radiated pressure in free space. Obviously, this is an analogy, the thing is you have a greater pressure here for free which like Bill Murray said “Which is nice”.
This allows the sound where you are to be louder for a given amount of LFE in the bedroom or kitchen above.

Drivers.
We don’t use exotic drivers in any of our products, with a few exceptions, what is perceived as “exotic” is a marketing concept and not an engineering concept, we do use some made to spec drivers and variants of stock drivers but the way I see it, for the most part, you can’t get anything that performs better than the drivers that are designed to perform in a market where many folks can and do measure things.
Anyway, I suspect many of you would be surprised how great a horn system can sound when you get rid of a lot of the problems, our SH-50 will reproduce a square wave and can do it over a wide frequency range (over a decade), spanning both crossover points, possible because the design has none of the phase shift or driver to driver interference normal in multi-way speakers.

What I do in the design process is look at what is available and try a few of the best bets in the computer model. The sort of nearly last resort is sending out driver spec’s for a purpose built driver but sometimes that’s the only solution.
The best designs resolve one acoustical problem or another and that is what given them there strength as it were. Like the Synergy horns are a way to combine the outputs of multiple drivers over multiple ranges and have then “knit” together seamlessly acoustically such that what is radiated is as if it were one source in time and space.

In the case of the Spud driver, these are simply a very beefy 8 inch woofer with the right parameters and the new driver is a beefier one which we found / tried just recently and it is around a hundred bucks each in OEM quantity and no I don’t think we want to sell drivers.
You can’t just plunk any driver in a Tapped horn however as explained below.

A pretty common reaction to our Tapped horns subwoofer is surprise in how much sound what ever driver and box size can produce.
The Tapped horn allows the horn to be made much smaller than a conventionally driven horn.
In a normal bass horn, if one makes it too small (like a more convenient size) one finds the response droops off and exhibits a series of peaks and dips which are caused by the acoustic loading changing as a function of frequency (from being too small physically relative to the wavelength produced).
The thing I would say is the breakthrough in the Tapped horn, is that if you can get all the various driver and horn parameters just right (something which one couldn’t do by accident, these are much harder than any other type of enclosure and have to be designed by computer) then one has a nice flat response to a much lower frequency than the horn size would normally have allowed the normal way.
By driving the horn at two different points in exactly the right way with just the right driver parameters, one can arrange the geometry so that where the lowest peak would have been, only one face of the drivers feels the load which where the dip had been, now both sides of the driver feel the acoustic load. The result is a nice broad response where the internal reactance’s have annulled leaving a nice broad band device.
It is more complicated to design than a normal horn but when the horn must be as small as possible, the effort can be well worth it.
In effect, it has a variable driver of sorts, who’s properties change with frequency compensate for the opposite changes the horn passage presents.
If look at the size of the spud and look at Ivan’s half space TEF measure of one box (on edge, the minimum external horn bubble), you can imagine this is impossibly small for a “20Hz bass horn” doing it the old way.

It is not uncommon to find the effect of the Tapped horn adds 10dB in sensitivity to the driver relative to it as a direct radiator.
In this case, a convenient example, an increase in sensitivity of 10 dB is brought about by a significant increase in acoustic load and as one then expects, one finds that the driver excursion is reduced by about a factor of 3.3 for a given radiated SPL. Also the excursion limited SPL is raised by about 10 dB (again, relative to that driver as a direct radiator).


RMK, I am glad you bought a second unit, in the design of it I had assumed people would use two under or behind a couch.

Actually Ivan suggested the under couch part first (a location I hadn’t thought of) and that lead to the flat shape. One of the hard parts is scaling what we do commercially down in size for the home. How much is enough, how much overkill is just enough?
The TH-50’s and SH-96’s look tiny on my computer screen or in a big room like the photo below but much less so in a living room.

Anyway, I think you will be pleased with a pair, there is hardly anything more gratifying than making a first time guest uncontrollably jump to there feet in genuine wide eyed terror at what to them was certainly a car crashing into the house.
Best,
Tom Danley
TH-SPUD

DSL powered IMAX
 

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