Crown amplifiers vs. other amps in the audiophile world

[Dellafago]

Hard to drive, power handling, and ability to play loud are different and separate issues. Yes your speakers are hard to drive but they can only handle 150w, much more for peaks obviously but they just won't play very loud especially in your large room and sitting 5 meters way. That is science!

Thanks Peng, I think I misguided you and participants here having said that I listen to music at loud levels. I want to put it correctly and please be informed that I am happy with the spl level granted by the speaker by an amp with adequate power, and I am also happy with its musical/sonic characterics (and I am not and never was after a lets say a cinema/club speaker, efficient speakers such as jbl, klipsh, cervin vega,etc. And I mainly listen to acoustic/ real instrument music). So please ignore any understanding that I want to have more spl than my speakers can offer, I am basically wondering if a single or a pair of 2002s or 2502s ( and please comment what additional benefits a pair can serve given the specifics of my speaker) will fully feed/drive my speakers, and secondly if such pa amp will give me the sonics like various home audio/hifi brands that we know as I should say that usher shines depending on the quality of the other items of the set-up chain. I finally copy here a picture of my listening position and as you can see I am actually using the room horizontally which shortens the listening distance and actually using half of the room as it is naturally seperated by a half way wall from the remainder part. <a href='https://postimg.org/image/6wwbr99f5/' target='_blank'><img src='https://s24.postimg.org/6wwbr99f5/image.jpg' border='0' alt='postimage'/></a>

 

[lovinthehd]

I wrote so as I interpreted Peng's last message in a way that if my concern is not spl ( which is by the way important for me), but the sound quality, it will be better to look elsewhere among home audio brands. If my interpretation is correct, I hesitate to own an amp with huge power but without hifi grade sonic qualities. ( and I would like to mention that I found such interpretation, if correct, contradictory with Peng's previous statement regarding placebo effect and there would be no difference to be noticed in blind test among crown and quite more pricy other home audio brands). I used the term of audiophile just for people to more easily visualize such criterion that I am talking about as we often come across with such criterion in hifi/audiophile discussions, forums like this forum. For instance for me, I am basically focused on clarity, detail, ability of speakers to produce frequencies from highest to lowest within its physical/technical limits, good sepetation of instruments, true representation of instrument sounds, good staging giving the feeling that speakers does not exist. I am not favoring any home audio equipment over pa equipments unless there is a ground you may inform me about in this regard. As I mentioned, I tried various home audio brands and did not find them sufficient either from quantative perspective ( i.e. inadequate output/ driving capacity like luxman, teac, nad the latter two of which were also not satisfying in terms of sound quality by the way), nor from qualitative criterion perspective (like cary's which was loud but not sounding well.)

No offense, but can you please use paragraphs? Makes your posts much easier to read. Thanks in advance.

Define sound quality differences among solid state amps operating within their parameters. What are you interpreting? Poor comparison methods?

Audiophile is simply one who enthusiasticly seeks hi fi reproduction, not a skill altho some would have you think so to sell you things.

Maybe you can tell differences in amps in a proper blind test and prove yourself to be a rare and gifted individual, at one time perhaps a million dollar prize winner. I wouldn't take the bet personally.

I've used the Crown XLS amps (I have several) and couldn't distinguish them in terms of sound quality from other solid state amps I have and have used. YMMV.

 

[KenM10759]

How far apart from each other are the speakers? I'd just find a way to sit a LOT closer and have proper triangulation for good stereo imaging. That seems a lot more economical way to solve the problem...to me.

 

[PENG]

So please ignore any understanding that I want to have more spl than my speakers can offer, I am basically wondering if a single or a pair of 2002s or 2502s ( and please comment what additional benefits a pair can serve given the specifics of my speaker) will fully feed/drive my speakers, and secondly if such pa amp will give me the sonics like various home audio/hifi brands that we know as I should say that usher shines depending on the quality of the other items of the set-up chain.

Thank you for the clarification. Okay so you are not after abnormally high spl, and I assume like most of us you are probably fine with 75 to 80 average spl in your room with say 20 dB for dynamic peaks. In that case your speakers should be able to do it without exceeding it's limits.

You don't need a pair, just one single 2002 or 2502 should be more than enough for the 8871s. It's like some dogs (e.g. Golden retrievers), they can be always hungry and want to eat more but they can die over eating. You have very nice speakers, so please don't over power them just because they are hungry!

By the way, your main challenge is your listening distance. If you can shrink it from 5m to 3.5m you need about 50% less power, or gain 3 dB of head room with the same power on hand. That also means by sitting closer, you can then go for much less powerful but more expensive amps that are theoretically better in terms of sound quality.

 

[lovinthehd]

That also means by sitting closer, you can then go for much less powerful but more expensive amps that are theoretically better in terms of sound quality.

This amp shopping is for the placebo effect?

 

[Dellafago]

Thank you for the clarification. Okay so you are not after abnormally high spl, and I assume like most of us you are probably fine with 75 to 80 average spl in your room with say 20 dB for dynamic peaks. In that case your speakers should be able to do it without exceeding it's limits.

You don't need a pair, just one single 2002 or 2502 should be more than enough for the 8871s. It's like some dogs (e.g. Golden retrievers), they can be always hungry and want to eat more but they can die over eating. You have very nice speakers, so please don't over power them just because they are hungry!

By the way, your main challenge is your listening distance. If you can shrink it from 5m to 3.5m you need about 50% less power, or gain 3 dB of head room with the same power on hand. That also means by sitting closer, you can then go for much less powerful but more expensive amps that are theoretically better in terms of sound quality.

Thank you Peng, it was very helpful. I kindly ask for just two more clarification, what happens if speakers are driven with more than adequate power in light of the metaphor you used regarding dogs. I understand that there won't be a significant benefit in opting for pair of amps but will it it also harm the speakers. As per my knowledge so far, overpowered amps are not a risk for speakers but the vice versa would be. Second question is whether I am right by thinking that crown will need to be used in by pass mode to send all frequencies to my speakers without filtering. Last, I agree with you and will resituate the listening position closer to the speakers as you suggested.

 

[Dellafago]

And sorry I forgot to ask if anyone is in a position to recommend a yamaha p7000s amp as an alternative since they are 1/4 cheaper than crown 2500 series in my country, Turkey, (on contary to europe/usa where crown is I think cheaper as far as I know) probably due to the fact that yamaha has much older history in Turkish market and has more competitive/broader sales network.

 

[PENG]

This amp shopping is for the placebo effect?

From post# 85 he said:

Otherwise I know that there are quite expensive high-end amps that will match with ushers, but I pretty much realized that unless you get such hi-end/audiophile grade levels, average(mid budget) amplifiers will most probably not be satisfying as the ones I used to try before. Therefore I am asking to myself why would I keep investing once more on such average options and be unhappy instead of giving a chance to a professional amp like Crown this time with significant lower cost even compared to those average home audio/hifi brands.

He seems to be thinking that if the Crown doesn't work out, at least he limits his investment to less than 1K. In a later post he also indicated he believed in Placebo. I highly doubt a $600-$700 amp would keep him happy, so regardless of the low price, why even bother? He also seems to be one of those who believe in certain speakers matching certain amps (unrelated to the power output ratings) so I am beginning to think there really isn't much we can offer.

It took much too long for to accept that the weakest link in most mid/high end hifi sysstem is the speakers, followed by media source and the player. Preamp and amps are problems created or imagined by audiophiles and spread them like virus over time, not the real issue in most cases.

 

[PENG]

And sorry I forgot to ask if anyone is in a position to recommend a yamaha p7000s amp as an alternative since they are 1/4 cheaper than crown 2500 series in my country, Turkey, (on contary to europe/usa where crown is I think cheaper as far as I know) probably due to the fact that yamaha has much older history in Turkish market and has more competitive/broader sales network.

The specs are comparable and Yamaha has a good reputation in terms of overall quality and reliability. Go for it!

 

[lovinthehd]

And sorry I forgot to ask if anyone is in a position to recommend a yamaha p7000s amp as an alternative since they are 1/4 cheaper than crown 2500 series in my country, Turkey, (on contary to europe/usa where crown is I think cheaper as far as I know) probably due to the fact that yamaha has much older history in Turkish market and has more competitive/broader sales network.

Looks like a decent amp but no experience, have heard nice things generally about the Yamaha pro lineup. That's crazy the price is that different...here I can get the 7000 or the 2502 for $600 easily.

One consideration, didn't look back to see if it was mentioned....many pro amps have fans for cooling, some are quieter than others so depending where you place your amp this may be a consideration. The Crown XLS fans are very quiet, one has to put their ear next to the amp and even then can be hard to tell if its running.

Another consideration is connectivity. The Crown XLS has rca inputs (as well as XLR and 1/4" phone jacks) and adjustable input sensitivity for a bit wider choice of pre-amp matching; the Yamaha has just XLR and 1/4" and sensitivity input is fixed.

 

[PENG]

Otherwise I know that there are quite expensive high-end amps that will match with ushers, but I pretty much realized that unless you get such hi-end/audiophile grade levels, average(mid budget) amplifiers will most probably not be satisfying as the ones I used to try before. Therefore I am asking to myself why would I keep investing once more on such average options and be unhappy instead of giving a chance to a professional amp like Crown this time with significant lower cost even compared to those average home audio/hifi brands.

Thank you Peng, it was very helpful. I kindly ask for just two more clarification, what happens if speakers are driven with more than adequate power in light of the metaphor you used regarding dogs. I understand that there won't be a significant benefit in opting for pair of amps but will it it also harm the speakers. As per my knowledge so far, overpowered amps are not a risk for speakers but the vice versa would be. Second question is whether I am right by thinking that crown will need to be used in by pass mode to send all frequencies to my speakers without filtering. Last, I agree with you and will resituate the listening position closer to the speakers as you suggested.

It will only hurt the speakers if you hear distortion and keep cranking up the volume. I have never auditioned Usher speakers but if their specs are honest (I refer to the power handling of 150W), you just have to remember they are design to sound good but not loud so yes you can damage them with any 700 WPC amp if you try.

 

[lovinthehd]

From post# 85 he said:



He seems to be thinking that if the Crown doesn't work out, at least he limits his investment to less than 1K. In a later post he also indicated he believed in Placebo. I highly doubt a $600-$700 amp would keep him happy, so regardless of the low price, why even bother? He also seems to be one of those who believe in certain speakers matching certain amps (unrelated to the power output ratings) so I am beginning to think there really isn't much we can offer.

It took much too long for to accept that the weakest link in most mid/high end hifi sysstem is the speakers, followed by media source and the player. Preamp and amps are problems created or imagined by audiophiles and spread them like virus over time, not the real issue in most cases.

We'll see, think he's just figuring stuff out after reading too many audio magazines or something....

 

[PENG]

Looks like a decent amp but no experience, have heard nice things generally about the Yamaha pro lineup. That's crazy the price is that different...here I can get the 7000 or the 2502 for $600 easily.

One consideration, didn't look back to see if it was mentioned....many pro amps have fans for cooling, some are quieter than others so depending where you place your amp this may be a consideration. The Crown XLS fans are very quiet, one has to put their ear next to the amp and even then can be hard to tell if its running.

Another consideration is connectivity. The Crown XLS has rca inputs (as well as XLR and 1/4" phone jacks) and adjustable input sensitivity for a bit wider choice of pre-amp matching; the Yamaha has just XLR and 1/4" and sensitivity input is fixed.

Good point, but for the little power he can push into those speakers, I hope the fans won't even turn on.

 

[Dellafago]

Looks like a decent amp but no experience, have heard nice things generally about the Yamaha pro lineup. That's crazy the price is that different...here I can get the 7000 or the 2502 for $600 easily.

One consideration, didn't look back to see if it was mentioned....many pro amps have fans for cooling, some are quieter than others so depending where you place your amp this may be a consideration. The Crown XLS fans are very quiet, one has to put their ear next to the amp and even then can be hard to tell if its running.

Another consideration is connectivity. The Crown XLS has rca inputs (as well as XLR and 1/4" phone jacks) and adjustable input sensitivity for a bit wider choice of pre-amp matching; the Yamaha has just XLR and 1/4" and sensitivity input is fixed.

I just realized that there is even more price gap among two in Turkey, cheapest 2502 I found is aprx. 1150 usd whereas yamaha p7000 is 700 usd.

 

[PENG]

I just realized that there is even more price gap among two in Turkey, cheapest 2502 I found is aprx. 1150 usd whereas yamaha p7000 is 700 usd.

List price in the US:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_sound/power-amps/p_series/p7000s/

 

[Dellafago]

Today I received p7000, first impression is the best sound I've heard so far from ushers since I bought them. Considering that yamaha is being driven through nad 372 rca preout and a 50 dollars dvd player, all stock cables, etc., I can't guess how better it will be performing in case of a good source/pre. I wish I could give a chance to pa amps so that I could avoid the cost that I incurred in the past due to investing much more expensive amps without being satisfied. The sound from highest to lowest frequencies is for me high grade, so musical and does not fall behind renowned high priced hifi brands I 've tried so far. Plus, my relatively hard to drive speakers are I think for the first time are effortlessly being driven by this amp (despite the low output of nad's preout). And by the way zero hiss/hum, no fan noise even at loud levels.

 

[lovinthehd]

Perhaps, like the amps, chasing more expensive sources or pre-amps is also not worth your time.

 

[Dellafago]

Perhaps, like the amps, chasing more expensive sources or pre-amps is also not worth your time.

I want to utilize my dsd/cd archive through a budget, preferably an all in one budget component. An audiolab 83000 cd/dac/pre seems now as a good/budget option so far, what do you think?

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd just use the existing gear and buy more music or are you saying your dvd player doesn't have ability to handle dsd? Not familiar with Audiolab in any case, here if I were to try and have a disc player also handle dsd and pre-amp duties perhaps Oppo. I just use my bluray player and my receiver....

 

[PENG]

I'd just use the existing gear and buy more music or are you saying your dvd player doesn't have ability to handle dsd? Not familiar with Audiolab in any case, here if I were to try and have a disc player also handle dsd and pre-amp duties perhaps Oppo. I just use my bluray player and my receiver....

I have to agree, the Oppo 105D can do everything the Audiolab can but then it will be better to wait for the UDP-205. Either one will be better value than the Audiolab 8300CD. A low cost external DAC plus a Sony BDP-S6700 is also an option.