Crown amplifiers vs. other amps in the audiophile world

[Boomzilla]

I would MUCH prefer to have my $7.50 per pair Blue Jeans Cable locking banana plug disintegrate when/if someone yanked at it rather than have my ultra secure Speakon connector follow my very expensive speaker to the ground.

You misunderstand. The Speakon, in the case of the Crown, is at the AMPLIFIER end, not the speaker end. Only sound reinforcement speakers use Speakons at the speakers (so far as I know). Yes, if someone tripped on a cable in a home setting (a highly unlikely event, provided you don't host raves), the amp would be pulled from its stand. But I'll bet it would still work fine. The BAD thing that could happen (without Speakons) is that the bananas would pull from the amp - causing a pop that might fry the speaker.

 

[KenM10759]

You misunderstand. The Speakon, in the case of the Crown, is at the AMPLIFIER end, not the speaker end. Only sound reinforcement speakers use Speakons at the speakers (so far as I know). Yes, if someone tripped on a cable in a home setting (a highly unlikely event, provided you don't host raves), the amp would be pulled from its stand. But I'll bet it would still work fine. The BAD thing that could happen (without Speakons) is that the bananas would pull from the amp - causing a pop that might fry the speaker.

Re-read your own message. You weren't clear and it read to me you were referring to wires at the speaker end.

Whatever. Speakon connectors are fine but not very common. Problems with banana plugs are equally common....meaning they're not.

 

[Don G.]

Just a quick comment from someone using an XLS2502. Very good amp, has a 12v trigger, can accept balanced or unbalanced inputs and runs very cool. I am driving some pretty inefficient, very accurate speakers with it and it has been fantastic so far. My speakers are Salk HT-3's. They have no trouble driving them to ear bleed levels and they drop below 4 ohms in a few frequencies. Get one of the new Drivecore Amps and you won't be disappointing unless you want to impress people with how much heat your amps put out.

 

[Dellafago]

Hi, I currently have usher 8871 dmd speakers and a nad c372 integrated amp (I borrowed the nad just to have a sound at home for the moment) and in the past 4 years drived these speakers with two different amps as well i.e. Cary cad 500mb monoblocks, teac ai 3000 intrgrated. In brief, nad certainly is far from driving the speakers, whereas the carrys was the best among these in terms of driving capability but was sacrifying in terms of sound quality, depth, staging, etc. Teac ai 3000 integrated was also similarly not utilizing the sonic merits of usher speakers and was shutting down when exceeding certain volume levels. In my humble opinion as well as various opinions I came across in the past, Ushers are quite power hungry speakers that may render kind of moderate looking on paper specs (copied below) a little bit misleading. Keeping in mind that I will be keeping my speakers and also planning to add an audiolab 8300 cd as preamp through xlr, what are your opinions for a crown xls ( wfhich may be a single xls 2502 or a pair of 2002 in bridge mode for each speaker depending on your comments which I will highly appreciate).

 

[Dellafago]

My main concern is that most of the owners tend to drive their subs with these amps therefore it might not be a good option to utilize the merits of my speaker. Please also note that I am a music listener rarely using my system in movies. Finally budget is a real concern for me and I truly would like to know crown xls's quality and quantity wise capability to match my speakers. Otherwise I know that there are quite expensive high-end amps that will match with ushers, but I pretty much realized that unless you get such hi-end/audiophile grade levels, average(mid budget) amplifiers will most probably not be satisfying as the ones I used to try before. Therefore I am asking to myself why would I keep investing once more on such average options and be unhappy instead of giving a chance to a professional amp like Crown this time with significant lower cost even compared to those average home audio/hifi brands.Thank you in advance for your thoughts, regards.

 

[Dellafago]

Usher 8871 specifications:
3-way system Be dome tweeter 1.25" (9980-20BeA), mid-low woofer 7" (8948A), and low-bass woofer 8"x2 (8955A)
Sensitivity 90 dB @ 1 watt / 1m
Nominal impedance 4 ohms
Frequency response (-3 dB) 25 Hz ~ 40 kHz
Power handling 150 watts
Crossover frequencies 276 Hz and 2.72 kHz
Weight 233 lbs (including base)
Dimensions (w x d x h) 12.4" x 33.5" x 53.9"

 

[PENG]

My main concern is that most of the owners tend to drive their subs with these amps therefore it might not be a good option to utilize the merits of my speaker. Please also note that I am a music listener rarely using my system in movies. Finally budget is a real concern for me and I truly would like to know crown xls's quality and quantity wise capability to match my speakers. Otherwise I know that there are quite expensive high-end amps that will match with ushers, but I pretty much realized that unless you get such hi-end/audiophile grade levels, average(mid budget) amplifiers will most probably not be satisfying as the ones I used to try before. Therefore I am asking to myself why would I keep investing once more on such average options and be unhappy instead of giving a chance to a professional amp like Crown this time with significant lower cost even compared to those average home audio/hifi brands.Thank you in advance for your thoughts, regards.

I understood the feeling, been there, done that too. It all depends how susceptible you are to Placebo. In a simple blind test if you can honestly tell a $5,000 to $7,000 200-300 WPC integrated amp sounding better than that Crown, then go for the high end amp. Otherwise save the money and spend it on things that really count. That is on high quality (recording, mastering etc.) music that are mostly found in formats including CD but mostly in SACD, digital files 24bit/88.2 kHz and up, DSD, and a high quality external DAC. Then you can forget about the cheap price of the Crown, that contrasts the high price of your speaker; and focus of enjoying music instead.

If you are prone to the Placebo effect, and cannot resist wanting to price match those speakers, then stop thinking and just pull the trigger on a $5 to $7K separates or integrated amp, and totally ignore what everyone else said about how all reputable amps with comparable specs sound the same if working within their limits.

 

[KenM10759]

Perhaps I missed it, but how big is your room, how far from the speakers do you sit and what volume level are you trying to maintain? I ask because I get the impression you want loud and perhaps more than what those speakers should be doing. They're highly regarded speakers, but will never be capable of what some of the JBL pro speakers can put out and it's appearing that's what you may need.

Also, I'm not clear what you were saying about the Cary monoblock amps. Those are very good (and very expensive) amplifiers and if they weren't giving you something (you wrote "sacrifying", did you mean sacrificing?) I would be concerned that the Crown might be no different.

 

[Dellafago]

I understood the feeling, been there, done that too. It all depends how susceptible you are to Placebo. In a simple blind test if you can honestly tell a $5,000 to $7,000 200-300 WPC integrated amp sounding better than that Crown, then go for the high end amp. Otherwise save the money and spend it on things that really count. That is on high quality (recording, mastering etc.) music that are mostly found in formats including CD but mostly in SACD, digital files 24bit/88.2 kHz and up, DSD, and a high quality external DAC. Then you can forget about the cheap price of the Crown, that contrasts the high price of your speaker; and focus of enjoying music instead.

If you are prone to the Placebo effect, and cannot resist wanting to price match those speakers, then stop thinking and just pull the trigger on a $5 to $7K separates or integrated amp, and totally ignore what everyone else said about how all reputable amps with comparable specs sound the same if working within their limits.

Thank you for your reply I spent almost twenty years in this, let's say, hifi hobby and changed almost 5 different set-up throughout this period. As you may imagine, as the system components got bigger and higher in value, it was more difficult to match the other components to get a satisfying result. Especially, when I did the final change in the speaker side (went to ushers from dali helicon 400), I never became happy with the follow up trials in the amp section as I mentioned above. That's why I asked for your opinion by this thread as I have no experience in professional systems and also admitting that a little bit overlooked them not because I have experienced them but maybe due to lack of discussions/reviews made regarding those equipments used in combination with hifi, music oriented, home audio systems. Otherwise, I think myself having priotorized always price/performance criteria, invstigating, reading and testing as much as I can do to find out the best components within moderate budgets levels.and yes I am also one of the believers of placebo effect trying to take actions independent from price figures, on paper specs., etc.

 

[Dellafago]

Perhaps I missed it, but how big is your room, how far from the speakers do you sit and what volume level are you trying to maintain? I ask because I get the impression you want loud and perhaps more than what those speakers should be doing. They're highly regarded speakers, but will never be capable of what some of the JBL pro speakers can put out and it's appearing that's what you may need.

Also, I'm not clear what you were saying about the Cary monoblock amps. Those are very good (and very expensive) amplifiers and if they weren't giving you something (you wrote "sacrifying", did you mean sacrificing?) I would be concerned that the Crown might be no different.

My listening room can be considered large by being 40 sq.meters (and my listening position is 5 meters to the speakers) The problem about cary monoblocks was not due to its incapacity to drive the speakers but was due to the fact that it was not driving the speaker sonically well. I was happy with cary monoblocs until I tried a starting level luxman integrated with Usher ( having less than quarter of the power output of cary monoblocs ) the latter of which was better in all areas by having a fuller sound, better staging, sound, body, etc. except for its inability to drive the speakers in relatively loud volume levels. Getting back to my query, taking into account the specs of my speakers, room size and the fact that I'm inclined towards listening loud, I wonder for instance whether a single xls 2502 will be able to sufficiently drive ushers or would you recommend a pair usage (2502sor 2002s) to separately drive each channels in bridge mode.

 

[lovinthehd]

@Dellafago At what distance from the speakers and what spl level do you want? How much headroom?

 

[KenM10759]

I believe he stated a listening distance of 5 metres from the speakers, or 16.4 feet. Using THIS CALCULATOR I put in the 90dB sensitivity of his Usher speakers, their 150 watt nominal capacity and got 101db at the listening position. That's pretty loud to me, perhaps more is wanted. That's why I'm suggesting maybe the Usher is a wrong speaker and something like the JBL M2 would work better.

 

[Dellafago]

@Dellafago At what distance from the speakers and what spl level do you want? How much headroom?

As I added Speakers are apprx. 5 meter away from my listening positions. Unfortunately I cannot give you figure for preferred spl level but if helps I like a speaker to be able to sound as loud as it is intended to achieve by the manufacturer without distorting prior to that limit. In other words, I would prefer an amp with a driving capacity equal or exceeding such intended spl specific to the speaker in concern by the manufacturer.

 

[Dellafago]

I mostly listent jazz, rock, acoustic and pop by the way. As I said, I was totally okey with the loudness of the speaker when used with cary's, hence I know how much it can go loud which I can say that they can really go loud. My concern is an amp to feed these spakers to reach its potential without sacrificing sound quality. For instance, usher sound is really too tiny and silent when driven by nad 372 at its maximum volume, probably less than half of the loudness level reached by carry mb's.

 

[lovinthehd]

As I added Speakers are apprx. 5 meter away from my listening positions. Unfortunately I cannot give you figure for preferred spl level but if helps I like a speaker to be able to sound as loud as it is intended to achieve by the manufacturer without distorting prior to that limit. In other words, I would prefer an amp with a driving capacity equal or exceeding such intended spl specific to the speaker in concern by the manufacturer.

Didn't see it....

You should get some measuring gear. Even a phone app sound meter might work. A single 2502 is close to what you had power wise in any case.

 

[PENG]

I mostly listent jazz, rock, acoustic and pop by the way. As I said, I was totally okey with the loudness of the speaker when used with cary's, hence I know how much it can go loud which I can say that they can really go loud. My concern is an amp to feed these spakers to reach its potential without sacrificing sound quality. For instance, usher sound is really too tiny and silent when driven by nad 372 at its maximum volume, probably less than half of the loudness level reached by carry mb's.

According to the specs those speaker are not designed to play very loud as Ken pointed out earlier. Power handling is 150W so again, any 200 to 300W amp should be good enough. The fact that you prefer the low power Luxman to the much more powerful mono blocks tells me you probably don't listen to ear hurting SPL anyway. From what I read, I doubt you will be happy with the Crown amps. Try out some Hegel, Bryston in the 5-7K range, or ATI, Parasound Halo in the 2-3.5K range. Any of those should be able to get the best out of your speakers, at least in theory and reality, if not psychologically.

 

[Dellafago]

Didn't see it....

You should get some measuring gear. Even a phone app sound meter might work. A single 2502 is close to what you had power wise in any case.

I think the specs of the speaker especially 150w specification is misleading. They are really hard to drive speakers even with amps having 150-250 watt output in 8 ohm (i.e. Believe me that it is not very wrong to say that a Nad 372 cannot move the drivers, a teac ai 3000 was activating protection and shutting down at moderately -but not extremely- loud levels). Having this in mind ( difficulty in driving these speakers is something pointed out in some discussions/user comments by the way), I wonder what kind of extra benefits a pair of crowns in bridge mode would bring you think over a single 2502 in stereo mode. And thanks Peng for your final comment that crown may not be right choice for me. Should I interprete your comment that crown as a professional equipment will not be utilizing usher's capabilities (lets say more audiophile grade, true demonstration of frequencies, highs, lows, etc) unlike some other home audio brands, but rather reflect a PA sound character, bringing forward the functionality, quantative features (like power output, handling, spl level, etc.), but not necessarily such qualitative criterion that home audio listeners/audiphiles, etc.usually dwell on.

 

[lovinthehd]

@Dellafago Audiophile grade? True demonstration of frequencies? Define please.

Unlike what brands?

 

[Dellafago]

@Dellafago Audiophile grade? True demonstration of frequencies? Define please.

Unlike what brands?

I wrote so as I interpreted Peng's last message in a way that if my concern is not spl ( which is by the way important for me), but the sound quality, it will be better to look elsewhere among home audio brands. If my interpretation is correct, I hesitate to own an amp with huge power but without hifi grade sonic qualities. ( and I would like to mention that I found such interpretation, if correct, contradictory with Peng's previous statement regarding placebo effect and there would be no difference to be noticed in blind test among crown and quite more pricy other home audio brands). I used the term of audiophile just for people to more easily visualize such criterion that I am talking about as we often come across with such criterion in hifi/audiophile discussions, forums like this forum. For instance for me, I am basically focused on clarity, detail, ability of speakers to produce frequencies from highest to lowest within its physical/technical limits, good sepetation of instruments, true representation of instrument sounds, good staging giving the feeling that speakers does not exist. I am not favoring any home audio equipment over pa equipments unless there is a ground you may inform me about in this regard. As I mentioned, I tried various home audio brands and did not find them sufficient either from quantative perspective ( i.e. inadequate output/ driving capacity like luxman, teac, nad the latter two of which were also not satisfying in terms of sound quality by the way), nor from qualitative criterion perspective (like cary's which was loud but not sounding well.)

 

[PENG]

I think the specs of the speaker especally 150w specification is misleading. They are really hard to drive speakers even with amps having 150-200 watt output in 8 ohm (i.e. Nad 372 can literally not move the drivers, a teac ai 3000 was activating protection and down at moderately -but not extremely- loud levels) Having this in mind, I wonder what kind of extra benefits a pair of crowns in bridge mode would bring you think over a single 2502 in stereo mode. And thanks Peng for your final comment that crown may not be right choice for me. Should I interprete your comment that crown as a professional equipment will not be utilizing usher's capabilities (lets say more audiophile grade, true demonstration of frequencies, highs, lows, etc) unlike some other home audio brands, but rather reflect a PA sound character, bringing forward the functionality, quantative features (like power output, handling, spl level, etc.), but not necessarily such qualitative criterion that home audio listeners/audiphiles, etc.usually dwell on.

Hard to drive, power handling, and ability to play loud are different and separate issues. Yes your speakers are hard to drive but they can only handle 150w, much more for peaks obviously but they just won't play very loud especially in your large room and sitting 5 meters way. That is science!