Crown amplifiers vs. other amps in the audiophile world

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What your Opinion, on Emotiva amps drasstic enough for you to become a Dealer? lol

A lot of people love Emotiva amps.

But I'm not interested.

 

[Lattiboy]

So I will chime in as I have a lot of experience when class D high power amps and have owned many of the ones discussed here.

The modern Crown stuff is an absurd deal for the power. The Hypex stuff is a nice step up from that for not a ton more cash (if you buy the simpler stuff like VTV). The Hypex was absurdly detailed and has a tiny footprint. the passive cooling is nice too.

I now run bridged vintage NAD 2400THX amps which I found provide much more bass kick in my setup. I use NHT Classic Four speakers which have 10’ subwoofers attached, so the difference was quite substantial in my testing. Probably made much more obvious than with non 4-way speakers.

I am well aware of all the people rushing to tell me that all amps sound identical if well engineered and running at the correct tolerances, but I can only provide my experience in doing direct AB testing with an identical front end and speakers. I actually wrote something online with that exact phrase last year, and I’m going to add an update to it that I’ve changed my mind.

I should add I used the Crown XTi2000 as well as the Hypex MC252MP for my above statements.

 

[lovinthehd]

So I will chime in as I have a lot of experience when class D high power amps and have owned many of the ones discussed here.

The modern Crown stuff is an absurd deal for the power. The Hypex stuff is a nice step up from that for not a ton more cash (if you buy the simpler stuff like VTV). The Hypex was absurdly detailed and has a tiny footprint. the passive cooling is nice too.

I now run bridged vintage NAD 2400THX amps which I found provide much more bass kick in my setup. I use NHT Classic Four speakers which have 10’ subwoofers attached, so the difference was quite substantial in my testing. Probably made much more obvious than with non 4-way speakers.

I am well aware of all the people rushing to tell me that all amps sound identical if well engineered and running at the correct tolerances, but I can only provide my experience in doing direct AB testing with an identical front end and speakers. I actually wrote something online with that exact phrase last year, and I’m going to add an update to it that I’ve changed my mind.

I should add I used the Crown XTi2000 as well as the Hypex MC252MP for my above statements.

Curious, how did you do the direct AB test?

 

[Lattiboy]

Curious, how did you do the direct AB test?

I removed the Hypex, and hooked up the NADs. Then listened to the same songs. All EQ off, same source.

 

[lovinthehd]

I removed the Hypex, and hooked up the NADs. Then listened to the same songs. All EQ off, same source.

So sighted and not level matched?

 

[Lattiboy]

So sighted and not level matched?

Level matched by ear using the attenuators on the NADs.

I’m not publishing in a journal or anything. I did about the best A/B test a civilian can do without investing a ton of time and found that the NADs had a noticeable increase in bass response. Could be coloring or something as they’re 30+ years old, but I don’t notice a different high end response.

 

[lovinthehd]

Level matched by ear using the attenuators on the NADs.

I’m not publishing in a journal or anything. I did about the best A/B test a civilian can do without investing a ton of time and found that the NADs had a noticeable increase in bass response. Could be coloring or something as they’re 30+ years old, but I don’t notice a different high end response.

Hard to know as that's just not much of a comparison to go on. Any connection to the bass distortion you mention in your thread?

ps If the change was audible it would be measurable...I take it you don't have measurement gear?

 

[Verdinut]

Also how cool is this, in 99' the IC150A was exhibiting some noise due to pot wear. I called Crown up and even though they initially said they didn't service that vintage one of their guys that had went home, dug up some still sealed replacement pots, serviced the unit, and charged me a whopping $65 bucks and that included shipping it back. The IC150A and DC300A are still in daily service by another friend of mine.

In the 1970's, I had a IC150 driving a Harman Citation 12 for several years. This Citation was later replaced by the Sony TA-3200F which had a better headroom and a lower output impedance which gave the Altec A7 components more punch and better transients.

 

[Hewhocanreadmeters]

We've tried, man. Maybe one of these days. I believe all of us are in support of such a review.

Hi guys, joined just to respond here.. I think it's a wonderful idea to do a side by side comparison, people from both sides of the debate present to discuss. But might I suggest one more factor? How about a seasoned professional audio engineer and his equipment on tap to scientifically measure what happens. Trust me, I love good sound, spent not small fortunes on fest to make it, and done go hear it as well. I've been in studios that are world renowned as a musician and technician, I'm an old dog that knows a little bit. I'm my experience the audiophile crowd is plain full of something, they do concerned with equipment they can't hear the music. And just crazy too. They say they want absolute clarity and accurate playback while insisting on using tube amps. Well friends, as a guitar player I can assure you that every tube ever made will color the sound somehow, that's facts. And if they get a speaker that is accurate they flip out. If you handed them a set of studio monitors theyd lock up and die right there. If you're going to be all pinky in the air about gear, at least learn enough about it that you don't sound like an idiot spewing off about how your amp with 20 tubes and 4 transformers is 100% accurate to the actual in studio sound. I think a decent engineer on site would be a HUGE step toward a reality check. Mtwo cents up front...you want transparent and accurate playback? Get a class D amp. Bet a dollar the instruments and ears if done double blind say the same thing.

 

[David Harper]

Great thread. I own Magnepan speakers and at first I tried to drive them with a Yammy Aventage AVR. Big mistake. Then I ordered and used a Schiit Vidar amp. Better than the AVR but the Vidar still had a tendency to shut down if I pushed the volume. Then I went to guitar world and bought a crown 700wpc amp. It was a revelation!!! For the first time I could make the maggies produce truly awesome sound. Powerful, crystal clear, everything I could want. Don't let audiophools tell you that crown amps don't have good sound quality. They don't know what they're talking about. They think price determines sound quality. It's the big lie of "high end" overpriced amps. I quit reading stereophile and TAS because of this assinine nonsense.

 

[blanddawg62]

You must be thinking of the Macro Reference (reviewed here: Crown Macro Reference power amplifier | Stereophile.com), which is definitely Class AB. The subjective part of the review reads like complete made-up rubbish. There's a haze over the music, with super-low distortion and unweighted noise down 88db at 2.83v? Lipnick must have been taking drugs. The measurements section certainly depicts awesome performance, though the Crown obviously is not natively balanced, so it actually performs better with single-ended inputs. Crown never made a Class A amp.

I have found the PS series (PS200 and PS400) to be the closest to audiophile quality. They actually play in class 'A' for the first 10 watts or so, which is the most undistorted mode of play. Then they transition smoothly into 'A/B' mode at medium volumes and then mode 'B' at high volume. I have found them to be very musical and comparable to amps costing 10x the money.

 

[blanddawg62]

I understood the feeling, been there, done that too. It all depends how susceptible you are to Placebo. In a simple blind test if you can honestly tell a $5,000 to $7,000 200-300 WPC integrated amp sounding better than that Crown, then go for the high end amp. Otherwise save the money and spend it on things that really count. That is on high quality (recording, mastering etc.) music that are mostly found in formats including CD but mostly in SACD, digital files 24bit/88.2 kHz and up, DSD, and a high quality external DAC. Then you can forget about the cheap price of the Crown, that contrasts the high price of your speaker; and focus of enjoying music instead.

If you are prone to the Placebo effect, and cannot resist wanting to price match those speakers, then stop thinking and just pull the trigger on a $5 to $7K separates or integrated amp, and totally ignore what everyone else said about how all reputable amps with comparable specs sound the same if working within their limits.

Don't remember who said it but to paraphrase, "It is amazing how an audiophiles' hearing changes when his eyes are covered"

 

[blanddawg62]

FYI, according to the data sheet, the NAC C372's input sensitivity (for rated output) is 350 mV, based on 9 dB of gain that means the internal preamp output would be about 1V, to yield rated output of 150W.

Input sensitivity of most amps is 1.4 volts and rarely higher than 1.7. Most preamps, even small pre/dac/headphone have outputs of 2 volts. Therefore it is rare that a preamp is limiting the amps output.

 

[fmw]

1. Have you auditioned Crown amps in a true audiophile setup? If so, what amps did you compare the Crown against?
2. I've looked at the Crown models and they don't seem to have standard binding posts for speaker wiring. If one were to look at Crown amps, what model or series would be appropriate in an audiophile setup?
3. Were there any sonic differences (good, bad or ugly) with the Class I topology if you heard those models?
4. Why does Crown have a stellar reputation in pro circles and get dissed in audiophile circles? Is it ignorance, is it the fact that some have fans? Theories?

I appreciate any feedback and thoughts. I see the likes of Emotiva, Crown, Sherborne, to name but a few that give great bang for the buck in terms of amplification.

I have owned and used Crown amps in pro audio applications and they are competent and durable. I have never used one in a home application. They did make one targeted at home audio some time ago. I don't know that they still do. They are made not far from me.

Crown amps are made for the commercial and pro audio marketplace so they will have the appropriate connectors for those applications. There are adapters available that allow you to connect your speakers as you prefer.

The class of amplification isn't an issue for home audio use. Class I is simply more efficient in energy use than, say a class AB amp. In home audio where you are using a handful of watts, the efficiency of the amp isn't much of an issue for that reason. In pro audio where one might use hundreds of watts it is more important.

As for question #4, I would say audiophile circles are the last place you should look for competent audio equipment advice. All modern solid state amplifiers amplify without any audible effect on the sound they amplify so ignore any comments about things like this amp sounds better than that one. Choose whatever lights your fire. It is more important that you like it rather than what model it is. They all perform accurately.

 

[MrBoat]

The most common error when choosing any amp is not having 'more than enough' headroom, regardless of speaker sensitivity. I notice that budget constraints end up having many people purchasing power levels right on the edge of what their system technically calls for, and they end up pushing the poor thing to it's limits from there on out.

I'd rather have a Crown with double or triple the power that I will ever need, the modern penchant for efficiencies be damned, than any of the cutie-pie boutique, rebadged offerings that use 4 ohm ratings to spec by, that make people think they are getting more than enough power.

Ample displacement, and extra headroom are two of the old school fundamentals that still hold as true today as before.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Crown amps and other pro amps won’t measure as well as audiophile amps in terms of THD+N/SINAD. But the pro amps will have a lot of power. And they will sound good enough. They may make hissing noise through the tweeters, but you can’t hear it from the listening position.

The biggest drawback to pro amps is that they look ugly to most audiophiles. .

 

[Verdinut]

Crown amps and other pro amps won’t measure as well as audiophile amps in terms of THD+N/SINAD. But the pro amps will have a lot of power. And they will sound good enough. They may make hissing noise through the tweeters, but you can’t hear it from the listening position.

The biggest drawback to pro amps is that they look ugly to most audiophiles. .

One exception with pro amps is the QSC Digital Cinema Amp series. The DCA 1222s which I'm using for the three front channels in my theater system, don't perform as well as the new Class D Buckeye amps. They however have lower published THD at rated output than that of the Marantz MM7025. Marantz doesn't quote IM levels. The DCA 1222s have lower IM than that on the Rotel RB-1552 MkII. Their MRSP is also less than that of the other brands.

SPECIFICATIONS	DCA 1222	DCA 1622	DCA 2422	DCA 3022	DCA 3422
8Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.03% THD	200 W	300 W	425 W	550 W	700 W
4Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz 0.05% THD	325 W	500 W	700 W	900 W	1100 W
EIA: 1 kHz, 1% THD @ 8Ω 4Ω 2Ω	215 W 375 W 600 W	350 W 600 W 800 W	475 W 825 W 1200 W	625 W 1050 W 1500 W	800 W 1250 W 1700 W
	BRIDGED MONO MODE
16Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.1% THD	400 W	600 W	850 W	1100 W	1400 W
8Ω, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.1% THD	700 W	1100 W	1500 W	2000 W	2200 W
4Ω, 1 kHz, 1% THD	1200 W	1600 W	2400 W	3000 W	3400 W
Signal to Noise 20 Hz–20 kHz, unweighted	> 106 dB	> 107 dB	> 108 dB	> 107 dB	> 107 dB
Input Sensitivity full rated power @ 8 ohms	1.0 V rms +2.2 dBu	1.2 V rms +3.9 dBu	1.5 V rms +5.5 dBu	1.7 V rms +6.8 dBu	1.9 V rms +7.8 dBu
Input Sensitivity full rated power @ 4 ohms	0.9 V rms +1.3 dBu	1.1 V rms +3.2 dBu	1.3 V rms +4.6 dBu	1.5 V rms +5.7 dBu	1.7 V rms +6.8 dBu
Output Circuitry Class Type	AB	AB	2-Step H	2-Step H	2-Step H
Distortion (SMPTE-IM)	< 0.01%	< 0.01%	< 0.02%	< 0.02%	< 0.02%

Marantz MM7025:
Specifications

Power Output

140W (20Hz-20kHz, 0.08%)

Rotel RB-1552 MkII:
Intermodulation Distortion (60Hz:7kHz, 4:1)
<0.03%

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

One exception with pro amps is the QSC Digital Cinema Amp series - The DCA 1222…

Well, my only 2 points are 1) they don’t have a MEASURED THD+N of 0.001% or SINAD of 95dB as measured by ASR and Audioholics and 2) they look ugly to most people.

They can still sound as good. No issue there.

 

[Verdinut]

Well, my only 2 points are 1) they don’t have a MEASURED THD+N of < 0.001% or SINAD of 100dB as measured by ASR and Audioholics and 2) they look ugly to most people.

They can still sound as good. No issue there.

They may look ugly to some people but their published unweighted SNR is >106dB which is excellent. They obviously sound as good except for the ones who have golden ears. Another positive point for purchasing one is that it's so well designed that you can't blow it.

 

[dlaloum]

For me, what is jumping out at me is that I don't see guys with experience in using Crown amps in an audiophile setup. That doesn't mean that the Crown stuff is no good. I think it means that there's been a bias against using pro gear in audiophile setups. I'm getting more and more curious if there's anyone who has really done a solid review of this? Any way to make that request up the food chain so that we can see an audioholics amp test using Crown pro gear vs. audiophile amps?

There is an extensive thread on Audiokarma forums with regards to the Crown Drivecore XLS... at least one of these was purchased, and the travelled through the US based audiophile community with people trying it out on their various setups, and commenting on the results.

The results were overwhelmingly positive, and many people ended up purchasing their own XLS (including me)

My speakers are Gallo Nucleus Reference 3.2 - which can be a difficult load as the impedance drops to 1.6 ohm - lots of amps just don't sound great with them...

The Onkyo SR876 and Integra 70.4 AVR's I had were capable of 165W@8ohm stereo RMS.... and sounded good with my speakers - but the Crown XLS2500 which I purchased used (US$250 !) was just as good, and appeared to have better dynamics and more headroom... (which at 440W@8ohm is not surprising).

Both the older AVR's had substantial power supplies - I also compared the AVR's and the Crown XLS to my Quad 606 current dumping amp (rated at 135W @ 8ohm, "unconditionally stable into any load" ) - I felt that the Quad was perhaps slightly smoother than the AVR's in the midrange, on a par with the Crown, and I probably could not tell them appart in a blind test.

More recently (last 12 months) - I replaced my elderly AVR's with a current generation Integra DRX 3.4.

It is rated 100W@8ohm - and is rated to handle 4 ohm speakers (purportedly) - my speakers are 4 ohm nominal.

It sounded like rubbish - it was congested, soundstage collapsed, imaging was gone...

My suspicion was that the power supply was too small, and it could not supply the current needed for the 1.6ohm nadir of the impedance curve.... so I plugged in the Crown XLS2500.... kept the AVR as a prepro - the sound immediately cleaned up, and became the sound I was expecting from my system.

I also tried the Quad 606... which also worked well - but the Quad is likely to be close to its limits into a 1.6 ohm load. It is rated 90W @ 2ohm, which roughly speaking equates to only 22.5W @ 8ohm - so peak SPL would be limited... although above my normal listening levels, it still feels better to have additional headroom... so I have set the system up using the Crown as my main stereo L/R amp, and leaving surround and height duties to the AVR's internal amps.

Downsides on the Crown Drivecore XLS amps - theoretically, there could be fan noise - the fans on mine have never been audible... but then at absolute peak (ear splitting) levels, the -20db LED barely lights up... so at absolute maximum I use 16W of the available 440W... the fan probably never needs to spin up!

Another issue for some people, is the DSP - the XLS digitises everything and it passes through the DSP - which limits frequency response to 22kHz (presumably standard 44khz 16bit ADC/DAC) - and yes there is no option to bypass it (at least on my first generation model)

There is adjustable gain (via a dial for each channel) - but max rated power out is achieved with an RMS input of 1.4V - so your preamp needs to be able to provide a clean 1.4V to maximise performance.

Some people that have run it with gain at max settings, have complained of hiss, I run with the gain knob set at around 75%, and have not experienced any hiss at all (no matter if I put my ear to the tweeters).
Note:my Prepro has been measured as capable of putting out around 3.5V from the pre-outs.... in any case there are no gain matching issues (hiss is usually a gain related problem!)

The DSP also allows crossovers to be set between the two channels, allowing an XLS amp to BiAmp a speaker properly, as you can fully set the crossovers within the power amp... (yes that is one of the reason I tried them... I was looking to eke out more performance from my speakers by Biamping... but I found that the difference was minor, and possibly completely imaginary, so I set things back to normal amping, and simplified the wiring! - with less powerful amps, Biamping might provide benefits, but when the base amp is 440@@8ohm and 1200W@2ohm, it makes less of a difference)

For audiophiles on a budget, I highly recommend the Crown Drivecore XLS amps - they are often available cheap in environments focused on pro-audio... garage bands come and go.... and they resell their amps! - that's how I got 2 of these for US$250 each.