crossover frequency with no subwoofer?

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TitusTroy

Enthusiast
I just wanted to thank everyone for all the help...you guys are great...some other forums people hate answering beginner level questions and expect everyone to be experts...glad to see Audioholics is not like that...cheers! :)
 
HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
I just wanted to thank everyone for all the help...you guys are great...some other forums people hate answering beginner level questions and expect everyone to be experts...glad to see Audioholics is not like that...cheers! :)
Beginners questions are the best!

There is less contradiction from the one asking the question. The more you know the greater the debate! Gets really time consuming after awhile!

Best :)
 
T

TitusTroy

Enthusiast
Depends on the receiver, some can apply a high pass filter for your speakers without a sub (it won't be a crossover without a sub). Does Aperion suggest you need one for full range use due some problem with handling lower frequencies? Do you plan to use LFE thru these speakers at high levels, or something along those lines, to worry about?
I just set up my new Onkyo TX-NR686 today...everything went fine...I did notice that there is an 'LPF of LFE' option in the settings which is described as setting a low pass filter...what should I set this to?...it defaults to 120Hz, the lowest option available is 80Hz and there is also an Off option (remember I don't have a subwoofer)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
I just set up my new Onkyo TX-NR686 today...everything went fine...I did notice that there is an 'LPF of LFE' option in the settings which is described as setting a low pass filter...what should I set this to?...it defaults to 120Hz, the lowest option available is 80Hz and there is also an Off option (remember I don't have a subwoofer)
Leave at 120
This is for the LFE track, or the ".1" on movies or multi-channel music. It is generally for the subwoofer; Low Frequency Effect.
This track can include frequencies anywhere from 3-120Hz.
But wait...
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
...Just re-read the thread. Forgot you don't have a sub. *blushes

Best of my knowledge... just ignore. this only affects the LFE/Subwoofer output. If there is a correction to this, anybody, please advise! :)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Spartan
If you don’t have a sub and your AVR allows you to set all your speakers to small that makes the most sense. Small setting is for no LFE signal.

Forget about the .1 info being lost your speakers are not subs and your amp will appreciate your consideration.

You can set a crossover level for speakers without a sub connected. The speakers will not get a signal below your AVRs active crossover. If it’s not a brick wall crossover set the crossover to 80 hz and let the active crossover reduce the signal the amp sees. If it’s -24db that’s almost down 500x the power by 40 Hz. -24 db is a massive drop in audible output and over 1 octave.

Move your speakers more towards the corners of your room to boost your low frequency output instead of asking your amp to drive a woofer with far less excursion than a dedicated sub into unsafe frequencies.

Lastly placing your speakers closer to corners does not change the input frequencies only the perceived loudness of the frequencies that are input!
80 hz? Why so high? F3 on those speakers is 55 hz...

I think you'll be fine running them as large and sub off as long as you use a little common sense. Some speakers will roll off before they bottom out. My Ultra bookshelf speakers really loud at full range and I've never heard them bottom out.

Like I said, a little common sense and listen for any bad behavior at high volumes. You can usually hear when things are getting strained or being over driven.
 
HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
Try them set to large then small. If set to small vary the crossover. It’s really all about finding your taste.

I had all my speakers set to large before purchasing my sub. Yes there was more low end and that came at the price of clarity.

People generally make a compromise when they don’t have all their gear! Volume level requires restraint if you set them to large however.
 
T

TitusTroy

Enthusiast
so I ended up buying a new X1500H 4K receiver...when running the initial Setup + Audyssey XT it set my Crossovers as:

Front: Full Band
Center: 80hz
Surround: 60hz

I have a 5.1 setup but am not currently using a subwoofer...my 2 fronts are Towers (not bookshelfs)...is this the optimal configuration or should I manually change the Center/Surrounds?...there is no option for Full Band/Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options are from 40Hz to 120Hz
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
so I ended up buying a new X1500H 4K receiver...when running the initial Setup + Audyssey XT it set my Crossovers as:

Front: Full Band
Center: 80hz
Surround: 60hz

I have a 5.1 setup but am not currently using a subwoofer...my 2 fronts are Towers (not bookshelfs)...is this the optimal configuration or should I manually change the Center/Surrounds?...there is no option for Full Band/Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options are from 40Hz to 120Hz
Denon tends to put that under Setup Menu - Speakers - Manual Setup - Speaker Configuration for setting large or small (i.e. using bass management or not). I've not been in your position, always have a sub to use....but don't think it would prevent you from changing that setting.
 
T

TitusTroy

Enthusiast
Denon tends to put that under Setup Menu - Speakers - Manual Setup - Speaker Configuration for setting large or small (i.e. using bass management or not). I've not been in your position, always have a sub to use....but don't think it would prevent you from changing that setting.
I went into that setting...there is no option for selecting Full Band/Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options to choose from are 40Hz to 120Hz (40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz etc)...is Full Band/Large equivalent to 120Hz and Small equivalent to 40Hz?

with my previous Denon AVR-791 the Fronts were set as Large and the Center/Surrounds were set as Small and I thought it sounded really good...what is the equivalent to Small in the new Denon X1500H?...I can choose from 40Hz to 120Hz
 
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HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
Sta
I went into that setting...there is no option for selecting Full Band/Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options to choose from are 40Hz to 120Hz (40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz etc)...is Full Band/Large equivalent to 120Hz and Small equivalent to 40Hz?

with my previous Denon AVR-791 the Fronts were set as Large and the Center/Surrounds were set as Small and I thought it sounded really good...what is the equivalent to Small in the new Denon X1500H?...I can choose from 40Hz to 120Hz
Basic starting point for speaker set as small is 80 hz and above. Best to look at the frequency response of your speakers and set your crossover perhaps 10 hz above the -2/-3 db point.

I would not send double bass to your mains especially if they are already saddled with a full band signal and any bass from the redirected from the Denon bass manager.

Heavy bass content can exist in any channel even surrounds so don’t think your main amp is even on the same playing field as a dedicated high current sub amp!

It may not be a bad idea to set the LFE trim back -10 db and flat.

If you find the low end needs a bit more kick then dial the LFE trim to -5. 10 db is 10x the amp juice so better to be very careful than “Peed off”. with s blown amp channel or speaker imo!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
I went into that setting...there is no option for selecting Full Band/Large or even Small for the Center and Surrounds...the only options to choose from are 40Hz to 120Hz (40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz etc)...is Full Band/Large equivalent to 120Hz and Small equivalent to 40Hz?

with my previous Denon AVR-791 the Fronts were set as Large and the Center/Surrounds were set as Small and I thought it sounded really good...what is the equivalent to Small in the new Denon X1500H?...I can choose from 40Hz to 120Hz
Hmm that's odd. Are you just on the crossover section or is this speaker config? Made me look at the manual.....it's under speaker config and with no sub the L/R are automatically set to large (and if you change them to small it will turn the sub on automatically). It doesn't say you can't make other speakers set to large, tho....there's a setting for large or small under each of the Front, Center and Surround channels per the manual (p 181-182 in the pdf download).
 
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TitusTroy

Enthusiast
Hmm that's odd. Are you just on the crossover section or is this speaker config? Made me look at the manual.....it's under speaker config and with no sub the L/R are automatically set to large (and if you change them to small it will turn the sub on automatically). It doesn't say you can't make other speakers set to large, tho....there's a setting for large or small under each of the Front, Center and Surround channels per the manual (p 181-182 in the pdf download).
yeah I can set it to Large/Small under Speaker Config. (Audyssey set the Fronts to Full Range/Large and the Center/Surrounds to Small)...so the settings under 'Crossover' and the ones under Speaker Config. both deal with crossover?...one just gives you the option to set it as Small/Large and the other gives you numerical crossover settings...they should just combine those settings into 1
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
yeah I can set it to Large/Small under Speaker Config. (Audyssey set the Fronts to Full Range/Large and the Center/Surrounds to Small)...so the settings under 'Crossover' and the ones under Speaker Config. both deal with crossover?...one just gives you the option to set it as Small/Large and the other gives you numerical crossover settings...they should just combine those settings into 1
Yes, speaker configuration is where you set bass management per speaker, then you can pick crossover for those you set to use bass management....I think my Onkyo does combine them into a single setting, ranging from full range to the crossovers.
 
T

TitusTroy

Enthusiast
Yes, speaker configuration is where you set bass management per speaker, then you can pick crossover for those you set to use bass management....I think my Onkyo does combine them into a single setting, ranging from full range to the crossovers.
so do the settings that Audyssey calibrated for me seem good or do I need to change any of the crossover numbers?...someone mentioned to me that I should keep my surrounds at 100Hz or a minimum of 80Hz (the main thing is that I don't have a dedicated subwoofer)

Front: Full Band

Center: 80hz

Surround: 60hz
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
so do the settings that Audyssey calibrated for me seem good or do I need to change any of the crossover numbers?...someone mentioned to me that I should keep my surrounds at 100Hz or a minimum of 80Hz (the main thing is that I don't have a dedicated subwoofer)

Front: Full Band

Center: 80hz

Surround: 60hz
What are the frequency response specs, particularly the f3, for each speaker?
 
T

TitusTroy

Enthusiast
What are the frequency response specs, particularly the f3, for each speaker?
frequency response specs:
Front Towers: (+/- 3dB) 55-20,000 Hz ~ (+/- 6dB) 45-22,000 Hz

Center: (+/- 3dB) 60-20,000 Hz ~ (+/- 6dB) 53-22,000 Hz

Surrounds: (+/- 3dB) 90Hz to 18,000Hz -- (+/- 6dB) 80Hz to 20,000Hz
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
frequency response specs:
Front Towers: (+/- 3dB) 55-20,000 Hz ~ (+/- 6dB) 45-22,000 Hz

Center: (+/- 3dB) 60-20,000 Hz ~ (+/- 6dB) 53-22,000 Hz

Surrounds: (+/- 3dB) 90Hz to 18,000Hz -- (+/- 6dB) 80Hz to 20,000Hz
Hmmm I'd expect it more to be xover of 60 for center, 80 for surrounds by those specs (or maybe 80 and 100).....I'd first try them all as full range without a sub if I had no sub. If any speaker started to make bad noises as a result I might try setting a crossover, and I'd start with 40. However, please note Audyssey recommends you not lower a crossover as it will leave a gap in coverage in eq, but raising a crossover is fine.
 
HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
I
Hmmm I'd expect it more to be xover of 60 for center, 80 for surrounds by those specs (or maybe 80 and 100).....I'd first try them all as full range without a sub if I had no sub. If any speaker started to make bad noises as a result I might try setting a crossover, and I'd start with 40. However, please note Audyssey recommends you not lower a crossover as it will leave a gap in coverage in eq, but raising a crossover is fine.
f you have a “bass peak limiter” setting in your AVR that will let you set the max level your drivers can be pushed regardless of being set as Large/Small and full band.

Usually a bass peak limiter is used when your speakers are without a high performance sub and or when your sub is not capable of reference level + 10 db or more from all speakers that are bass managed!

Playback with the .LFE signal and bass managed crossover signal of satellite speakers is usually +10 db hotter than 105 db reference peak!

Bass peak limiter is an important setting for other scenarios but mostly for lower performance subs and speakers less than full range or main amps/AVRs not high powered enough to foot such high output requirements!
 
HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
I used my bass peak limiter while without a sub and had all my speakers set to large to get the .LFE content and then I set the crossover applicable to the speaks low frequency extensions(port tuning) not frequency response spec of bass drivers.

Then I used the bass peak limiter which is a virtual brick wall that has both to do with the volume level only the max volume the low bass content can be played at.

High performance subs usually cone built with their own internal bass peak limiter for the same reason to prevent premature failure by our lack of awareness of the drivers or amps in distress l!
 

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