ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
An ICU doc came down with this virus in Italy, and gave up his chance of getting a ventilator for a patient and died. Now that was true dedication.
But ICU docs don't grow on trees and we're facing a shortage of qualified clinicians. His dedication may ultimately cost more lives (the ones he won't save in the future) than the one he may (or may not) have saved by giving up the vent.

I find this tragic, and it presents a moral quandary. This isn't like jumping on the grenade to save your comrades, it's altruism run amok which may compound the problem. Over the next few months we will need every doc/nurse/emt with a pulse available and contributing, including those who have recovered themselves.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Some good news for an actual fucken change:
Interesting. That antibiotic, azithromycin, specifically inhibits protein synthesis in a wide range of bacteria, but has no known effect on eucaryotic cells.

Azithromycin is widely used and should be readily available. What's the availability hydroxychloroquine? Also of some importance, is what kind of adverse events occurred in those severely ill patients when they took those two drugs in combination?

1584723669173.png
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Gautret et al. (2020) Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVID‐19: results of an open‐label non‐randomized clinical trial. International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents – In Press 17 March 2020 – DOI : 10.1016/j.ijantimicag.2020.105949


This small study looks like a good finding, with some limitations as noted by the authors in the Discussion section. Here is a brief summary of excerpts from the paper, where I bolded their words:

We enrolled 36 out of 42 patients meeting the inclusion criteria in this study that had at least six days of follow-up at the time of the present analysis. A total of 26 patients received hydroxychloroquine and 16 were control patients. Six hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were lost in follow-up during the survey because of early cessation of treatment. The results presented here are therefore those of 36 patients (20 hydroxychloroquine-treated patients and 16 control patients). None of the control patients was lost in follow-up.

Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were older than control patients (51.2 years vs. 37.3 years). No significant difference was observed between hydroxychloroquine-treated patients and control patients with regard to gender, clinical status and duration of symptoms prior to inclusion (Table 1).

Among hydroxychloroquine-treated patients six patients received azithromycin (500mg on day1 followed by 250mg per day, the next four days) to prevent bacterial super-infection under daily electrocardiogram control. Clinical follow-up and occurrence of side-effects will be described in a further paper at the end of the trial.

Discussion
For ethical reasons and because our first results are so significant and evident we decide to share our findings with the medical community, given the urgent need for an effective drug against SARS-CoV-2 in the current pandemic context.


We show here that hydroxychloroquine is efficient in clearing viral nasopharyngeal carriage of SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 patients in only three to six days, in most patients. A significant difference was observed between hydroxychloroquine-treated patients and controls starting even on day3 post-inclusion. These results are of great importance because a recent paper has shown that the mean duration of viral shedding in patients suffering from COVID-19 in China was 20 days (even 37 days for the longest duration) [19]

Very recently, a Chinese team published results of a study demonstrating that chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine inhibit SARS-CoV-2 in vitro with hydroxychloroquine (EC50=0.72%μM) found to be more potent than chloroquine (EC50=5.47%μM) [14]. These in vitro results corroborate our clinical results. The target values indicated in this paper [14] were reached in our experiments. The safer dose-dependent toxicity profile of hydroxychloroquine in humans, compared to that of chloroquine [13] allows using clinical doses of hydroxychloroquine that will be over its EC50 observed in vitro [14].

Our preliminary results also suggest a synergistic effect of the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. Azithromycin has been shown to be active in vitro against Zika and Ebola viruses [20-22] and to prevent severe respiratory tract infections when administrated to patients suffering viral infection [23]. This finding should be further explored to know whether a combination is more effective especially in severe cases. Speculated potential risk of severe QT prolongation induced by the association of the two drugs has not been established yet but should be considered. As for each treatment, the cost benefits of the risk should be evaluated individually. Further studies on this combination are needed, since such combination may both act as an antiviral therapy against SARS-CoV-2 and prevent bacterial super-infections.

The cause of failure for hydroxychloroquine treatment should be investigated by testing the isolated SARS-CoV-2 strains of the non-respondents and analyzing their genome, and by analyzing the host factors that may be associated with the metabolism of hydroxychloroquine. The existence of hydroxychloroquine failure in two patients (mother and son) is more suggestive of the last mechanism of resistance.

Such results are promising and open the possibility of an international strategy to decision-makers to fight this emerging viral infection in real-time even if other strategies and research including vaccine development could be also effective, but only in the future. We therefore recommend that COVID-19 patients be treated with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin to cure their infection and to limit the transmission of the virus to other people in order to curb the spread of COVID-19 in the world. Further works are also warranted to determine if these compounds could be useful as chemoprophylaxis to prevent the transmission of the virus, especially for healthcare workers. Our study has some limitations including a small sample size, limited long-term outcome follow-up, and dropout of six patients from the study, however in the current context, we believe that our results should be shared with the scientific community.
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
I don't have your answer Swerd but chloroquine and it's class are NOT benign drugs. There is a well known and not uncommon side effect of aplastic anemia where the bone marrow fails and no new blood cells are made. The treatment is bone marrow transplantation which sick coronvius patients would never survive and is even more resource hungry than the virus alone. Large scale use of chloroquine would result in a disaster even if only a small percentage of these patients. TLS may know more than I do about this.
 
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Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
I don't have your answer Swerd but chloroquine and it's class are NOT benign drugs. There is a well known and not uncommon side effect of aplastic anemia where the bone marrow feels and no new blood cells are made. The treatment is bone marrow transplantation which sick coronvius patients would never survive and is even more resource hungry than the virus alone. Large scale use of chloroquine would result in a disaster even if only a small percentage of these patients. TLS may know more than I do about this.
They have actually been talking about these drugs for quite a while, this isn't really new. I responded to someone asking about Chloroquine a week or more ago. It was brought up on a call I was on about a month ago, China and South Korea were doing tests.

As of right now, this isn't considered a true safe and effective treatment. The argument being made is that Hydrochloroquine is safer than Chloroquine and thus is somehow going to be our savior.
*I just realized the french study was for THIS COVID-19, and not the previous SARS virus. So disregard what I said here before.

Aren't there some other toxic side effects that clear on their own, but are problematic in the short term? Something related to vision? I can't remember what I heard anymore.

I believe even Trump noted that we are months away from its use as a clinical treatment. To test the safety and efficacy of a drug, you usually test with 1000's, not dozens of people. When conditions are rare enough that it is not possible to test on 1000's (this virus would potentially fall into that because we couldn't randomize a country in the midst of a pandemic for research purposes) there are alternative evaluation designs that can be used, such as Bayesian Adaptive trials or Stepped Wedge designs. I will be curious if trial design experts help put together better designs using small samples.

Everything I've read seems to suggest the drug works, it's just an issue of safety at this point.

There are another dozen or so drugs with FDA approval that are also being looked at. We will see more of this. While we need treatments like this, what we really need is an immunization. My understanding is that there were a number of immunizations for COVID's developed in the past but not fully tested. At least one in America, and we are hearing that both China and Russia are testing one as well. Since those are not FDA approved for anything yet, even though they can be fast-tracked, they still will probably be 6 months away. I believe they never got passed animal models.
 
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Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
They have actually been talking about these drugs for quite a while, this isn't really new. I responded to someone asking about Chloroquine a week or more ago. It was brought up on a call I was on about a month ago, China and South Korea were doing tests.

As of right now, this isn't considered a true safe and effective treatment. The argument being made is that Hydrochloroquine is safer than Chloroquine and thus is somehow going to be our savior.
*I just realized the french study was for THIS COVID-19, and not the previous SARS virus. So disregard what I said here before.

Aren't there some other toxic side effects that clear on their own, but are problematic in the short term? Something related to vision? I can't remember what I heard anymore.

I believe even Trump noted that we are months away from its use as a clinical treatment. To test the safety and efficacy of a drug, you usually test with 1000's, not dozens of people. When conditions are rare enough that it is not possible to test on 1000's (this virus would potentially fall into that because we couldn't randomize a country in the midst of a pandemic for research purposes) there are alternative evaluation designs that can be used, such as Bayesian Adaptive trials or Stepped Wedge designs. I will be curious if trial design experts help put together better designs using small samples.

Everything I've read seems to suggest the drug works, it's just an issue of safety at this point.

There are another dozen or so drugs with FDA approval that are also being looked at. We will see more of this. While we need treatments like this, what we really need is an immunization. My understanding is that there were a number of immunizations for COVID's developed in the past but not fully tested. At least one in America, and we are hearing that both China and Russia are testing one as well. Since those are not FDA approved for anything yet, even though they can be fast-tracked, they still will probably be 6 months away. I believe they never got passed animal models.
I found this from https://eyewiki.aao.org/Hydroxychloroquine_toxicity
Part of the issue is we don't know the necesssary dosing that works best.

Hydroxychloroquine retinopathy is most influenced by daily dose and duration of use. Risk for toxicity is less with <5.0 mg/kg real weight/day for hydroxychloroquine and <2.3 mg/kg real weight/day for chloroquine[2]. Patients are at low risk during the first 5 years of treatment. Other major risk factors include renal disease, concominant drug use (e.g., tamoxifen), and macular disease which is thought to potentially affect screening and susceptibility to Plaquenil and chloroquine. Age, liver disease, and genetic factors (e.g., polymorphisms in the cytochrome P450 gene which may impact blood concentrations) are thought to be lesser risk factors associated with toxicity risk[2][4]. Kidney and liver disease predispose to hydroxychloroquine toxicity due to impaired clearance of the drug. Old age is hypothesized to contribute to overall risk due to the natural aging process of the retinal pigment epithelium (RPE), causing the RPE to be more sensitive to toxic drugs. Similarly, concomitant retinal conditions predispose to toxicity due to predamaged cellular elements. At recommended doses, the risk of toxicity up to 5 years is under 1%and up to 10 years is under 2%, but rises to nearly 20% after 20 years. However, if a patient has not demonstrated toxicity after the 20-year point, he/she only has a 4% risk of developing toxicity the subsequent year.[2] Keratopathy is rare (<1%) in patients treated with typical doses of hydroxychloroquine. Ciliary body dysfunction is rare and no risk factors are identified.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
I found this from https://eyewiki.aao.org/Hydroxychloroquine_toxicity
Part of the issue is we don't know the necesssary dosing that works best.

Hydroxychloroquine retinopathy is most influenced by daily dose and duration of use. Risk for toxicity is less with <5.0 mg/kg real weight/day for hydroxychloroquine and <2.3 mg/kg real weight/day for chloroquine[2]. Patients are at low risk during the first 5 years of treatment. Other major risk factors include renal disease, concominant drug use (e.g., tamoxifen), and macular disease which is thought to potentially affect screening and susceptibility to Plaquenil and chloroquine. Age, liver disease, and genetic factors (e.g., polymorphisms in the cytochrome P450 gene which may impact blood concentrations) are thought to be lesser risk factors associated with toxicity risk[2][4]. Kidney and liver disease predispose to hydroxychloroquine toxicity due to impaired clearance of the drug. Old age is hypothesized to contribute to overall risk due to the natural aging process of the retinal pigment epithelium (RPE), causing the RPE to be more sensitive to toxic drugs. Similarly, concomitant retinal conditions predispose to toxicity due to predamaged cellular elements. At recommended doses, the risk of toxicity up to 5 years is under 1%and up to 10 years is under 2%, but rises to nearly 20% after 20 years. However, if a patient has not demonstrated toxicity after the 20-year point, he/she only has a 4% risk of developing toxicity the subsequent year.[2] Keratopathy is rare (<1%) in patients treated with typical doses of hydroxychloroquine. Ciliary body dysfunction is rare and no risk factors are identified.
Sure, well dosage studies are usually a part of the trial process. A multi-arm design can be used for that. I imagine there is some precedent for that as well. The Bayesian Adaptive trial could also be used as a means to match patient and disease characteristics to specific treatment protocols, including different doses.

So if I read that right, there are a bunch of risks that need to be explored more.

So the 5, 10, 20 year part, is that suggesting you take the drug that long, or that if you take the drug even once, you might have these problems in the long run, decades down the road?
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
Some are on long term use for malaria supression, I think that's who they are talking about. There is alot to be learned. If some red tape can be cut, a large multicenter trial could be done as there are obviously plenty of patients.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… chloroquine and it's class are NOT benign drugs. There is a well known and not uncommon side effect of aplastic anemia where the bone marrow fails and no new blood cells are made.
Do not confuse chloroquine with hydroxychloroquine. You did get that in a later post.

The French authors made reference to a Chinese paper where they tested cells grown in dishes (in vitro) infected with virus. They found that hydroxychloroquine (with an EC50 of 0.72 µM) was 7.6 times more potent than chlororquine (with an EC50 of 5.47 µM) at lowering the viral count by PCR assay. (EC50 is half the concentration at which a drug is most effective.) The French paper used hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19 patients, in vivo, and found qualitatively similar results.

Everything I've read seems to suggest the drug works, it's just an issue of safety at this point.
The authors of the French paper said they wanted to publish their positive findings as fast as possible. They did not include any safety data in their paper, saying that it would appear in a later publication. So, at this point, we have to take their word that hydrochloroquine was safe at the doses they used.

In addition, the French authors claim that azithromycin acted synergistically with hydroxychloroquine. Twenty patients received hydroxychloroquine, 16 patients did not get hydroxychloroquine, and 6 patients got both hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. They never treated patients with azithromycin alone, so they cannot make a synergy claim. A minor point, but worth investigating. Does azithromycin alone help COVID-19 patients?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
@Swerd and @Dan I'd be Pinnochio nose to the moon if I say I understood in details what you both talking about or this article, but it seems like relevant to the subject:
I'm not sure what you are asking.

As far as I understand things, drugs like chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine act indirectly on the cell being infected by the virus. These drugs make the cell a less welcome host cell for the virus to high jack.

In any virus infection, the virus's nucleic acid genome must get into a host cell so that it can effectively high jack the cell's existing protein synthesis machinery to reproduce itself. In viruses such as coronavirus or influenza, the virus particle has a lipid coating surrounding its core where it's nucleic acid genome, coated with more proteins, is located. If the cell takes up viral particles by bulk endocytosis, they get shuttled to a vesicle inside the cell called a lysosome. Inside lysosomes a mechanism exists to aid digestion of endocytosis particles by becoming mildly acidic, to a pH of roughly 4 or 5. Under those conditions, lipid coated viruses merge with the lysosomal membrane and get transported directly into the cytoplasm, where the virus can replicate. With chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, the acidification of the lysosome is blocked, preventing the virus from entering the cell's cytoplasm.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Don't jump the gun on this drug yet. More testing is needed to confirm efficacy:
 
Dan

Dan

Audioholic Chief
I'm not sure what you are asking.

As far as I understand things, drugs like chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine act indirectly on the cell being infected by the virus. These drugs make the cell a less welcome host cell for the virus to high jack.

In any virus infection, the virus's nucleic acid genome must get into a host cell so that it can effectively high jack the cell's existing protein synthesis machinery to reproduce itself. In viruses such as coronavirus or influenza, the virus particle has a lipid coating surrounding its core where it's nucleic acid genome, coated with more proteins, is located. If the cell takes up viral particles by bulk endocytosis, they get shuttled to a vesicle inside the cell called a lysosome. Inside lysosomes a mechanism exists to aid digestion of endocytosis particles by becoming mildly acidic, to a pH of roughly 4 or 5. Under those conditions, lipid coated viruses merge with the lysosomal membrane and get transported directly into the cytoplasm, where the virus can replicate. With chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, the acidification of the lysosome is blocked, preventing the virus from entering the cell's cytoplasm.
That acidification process is performed by a pathway including the enzyme myeloperoxidase which makes hypochlorous acid, HOCl, which is the active ingredient in bleach (Clorox). The pH in the lysozyme is similar to the pH in your washing machine when you add Clorox.

Hope you are continuing to mend Gene.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Don't jump the gun on this drug yet. More testing is needed to confirm efficacy:
Yes, someone with a backbone in there but is he listened to and by whom? Doesn't look like the wannabe king is listening.
 
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M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Perhaps this is another angle that can improve some outcomes. Yes, I realize this has not been tested in double blind studies on large numbers of patients, it's not scientifically proven, etc., but improved treatments have to start somewhere.

If nothing else, the number of deaths worldwide in one year (11 million) from sepsis is an eye-opener.

>>>At a virtual conference on sepsis and its relation to Covid-19 held at the University Hospital Charité in Berlin, Niels Riedemann, CEO of Inflarx NV, showed data suggesting that sepsis is diagnosed in 100% of COVID associated deaths, with respiratory failure as the predominant organ failure. According to Konrad Reinhard, founding president of the Global Sepsis Alliance, the systemic infection that ends in multiorgan failure, caused 19.7% of all deaths worldwide in 2017, with 48.9 cases and 11 million deaths.

Currently, most experimental COVID-19 therapeutics and vaccines are aimed at blocking the spread of the viral infection and treat early stages of the disease. In Berlin, the researchers hypothesised that experimental therapeutics that slow down the progression of later stages of COVID-19 might help reduce the mortality rate in infected risk groups. According to Riedemann, slowing down the progression from pneumonia to sepsis would be a beneficial strategy.

Alexandre Mebazza from Hospital Lariboisiere in Paris (France) presented data from the AdrenOSS-2 Phase II study demonstrating that the antibody candidate adrecizumab clearly reduced mortality in patients with early septic shock. Futher data presented at the symposium suggest that certain sepsis biomarkers might help to identify risk patients for septic shock, including respiratory failure. The developers are working to confirm the working hypothesis that interventions that block sepsis might also improve outcomes in Covid-19 patients.<<<

 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Don't jump the gun on this drug yet. More testing is needed to confirm efficacy:
Right. At this point, neither efficacy nor safety are known for hydroxychloroquine in the setting of Covid-19 patients.

Hydroxychloroquine was tested clinically in the past, probably for malaria patients, and maybe for prevention of malaria in healthy patients. So first, clinical testing has to establish what dose of hydroxychloroquine, alone and in combination with azithromycin, is safe and well tolerated in Covid-19 patients. This kind of safety study is called a Phase 1 Clinical Trial. It must determine safe doses for hydroxychloroquine alone and when combined with azithromycin (a commercially availble drug with well known dosing and safety profile). Usually these trials start testing at a low dose, and gradually increase the dose step wise, until dose-limiting-toxicities occur. The goal is to determine a maximum tolerated dose (MTD) and what types of toxicities occur.

After Phase 1 results, MTD and list of known toxicities, are known, a small Phase 2 trial (roughly 25 to 50 patients) can establish whether there is enough efficacy to make it worth while to run a much larger Phase 3 trial (roughly 250 to 500 patients) that actually can measure efficacy with reliable statistical significance. These Phase 3 trials take lots of time & money. This is the classic drug development strategy required by the FDA under normal circumstances.

With a true emergency, as we certainly do have, corners can be cut. The Phase 1 safety trial and Phase 2 efficacy trial can be combined into a Phase 1b/2 trial. Because hydroxychloroquine's safety is already known, test it in a small cohort (3-9 patients, 3 at each 3 dose levels) of Covid-19 patients to see if they require different doses than for malaria patients, and to see if toxicities are different in these patients. Again, this must be done ± azithromycin.

If results are similar to those found with malaria patients, move right along to a Phase 2 trial with three arms. It will test hydroxychloroquine alone, hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin, and a suitable control arm, perhaps azithromycin alone. Patients with Covid-19 will be randomly selected to enter one of those 3 arms. Some one with better understanding of statistics than I have can predict how many patients will be needed in each arm to obtain statistically significant results. Just to spitball a number, lets pick 30 patients for each arm. Write in the usual early stopping rules in case of futility or unusually good efficacy. Also include a rule that allows patients to switch arms if one arm is much worse or much better than the others.

You have to also define a suitable medical endpoint to be able to judge success from failure. I know what that might be for cancer, but not for infectious diseases.

When such a randomized controlled multi-arm Phase 2 trial is done, the results can be presented to the FDA. The FDA can make the call to approve the drug as tested, or whether this trial should be continued with more patients in each arm. Again, the emergency we face can be reason to cut many corners, but not to eliminate clinical testing.

As you can see, that French paper that described preliminary (quick & dirty) results from 36 patients, 16 treated with no test drugs (control arm), vs. 20 with hydroxychloroquine, vs. 6 patients with hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin merely suggests an approach for proper clinical development.

As a note, I worked for the last 20 years of my career as a scientist directly involved in a US Government agency that sponsored many hundreds of clinical trials of experimental cancer drugs. I know first hand what the FDA looks for in these trials, and I know how to design these trials so they provide clinically relevant answers. It can be a dreadfully slow, but essential, process. I'm very curious what the FDA can do to speed this up.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
Currently, most experimental COVID-19 therapeutics and vaccines are aimed at blocking the spread of the viral infection and treat early stages of the disease. In Berlin, the researchers hypothesised that experimental therapeutics that slow down the progression of later stages of COVID-19 might help reduce the mortality rate in infected risk groups. According to Riedemann, slowing down the progression from pneumonia to sepsis would be a beneficial strategy.
...
Interesting.
I wonder if one was immunized against pneumonia, if that will work against getting it from Covid19.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Perhaps this is another angle that can improve some outcomes … sepsis
Good point. It does seem that these patients with these viral infections die from multi-organ failure due to sepsis or shock from cytokine storm. The cause of death is not directly due to symptoms of viral infection itself. That may explain the usefulness of a broad spectrum antibiotic like azithromycin.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I think you know the answer to your own question. Eliminate or shorten some steps, and take more risks.
Let me rephrase that.

I'm very curious what the FDA can will do to speed this up.​

The real question is how high should the bar be set for efficacy? It can be argued to set the bar low because nothing else effective is available. Those decisions will be made by people at a much higher pay grade than I was.

A safe bet would be to design a clinical trial with an interim analysis built in midway during the trial. If efficacy is high enough (that has to be defined before the trial starts), give the drug preliminary approval, while continuing the trial. When all the trial's data is available, review the results, and modify the approval if needed.
 
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