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[Dude#1279435]

Bringing back manufacturing to USA won’t bring back that many jobs at all: It will be robots and engineers. Blue collar jobs? Not so much.

I get wanting autonomy, but the reality is we Americans have high living standards. We want it, and we want it now.

 

[Trell]

I’m

I get wanting autonomy, but the reality is we Americans have high living standards. We want it, and we want it now.

Yeah, pretty much the same over here in Europe but having a brutal unprovoked invasion by the Russians in the largest war since WWW II sort of cleared the mind of many. Not all, sadly.

 

[highfigh]

I get wanting autonomy, but the reality is we Americans have high living standards. We want it, and we want it now.

And we want a lot of it....then we bitch about all of the clutter.

 

[highfigh]

Bringing back manufacturing to USA won’t bring back that many jobs at all: It will be robots and engineers. Blue collar jobs? Not so much.

Who will set up and repair the machinery? Certainly not the robots and engineers.

That may be, but people will be needed for non-manufacturing jobs, like maintenance, setup/repair of equipment and many mid-level jobs that aren't engineering. Also, we (the US) need to make more items that are repairable. I went to a shop that repairs and re-manufactures electric motors and in the 30+ years of going there, they always seemed busy. These are motors for machinery, BTW- they had one hanging from a chain hoist that must have been 200HP.

 

[highfigh]

In past generations, a great deal of mental illness went undiagnosed and suffers who did bad things were just labeled 'evil'. We might not suffer from more mental illness now; it could be that it's being diagnosed more. For example, during the First World War, troops suffering from PTSD were often accused of 'lacking moral fibre', i.e. a character flaw, rather than mental illness.

At the same time I question how significantly the pandemic contributed to such problems.

There is definitely an incentive for drug manufacturers to find mental health conditions to match their pharmaceutical 'cures'.

It seems that here, people are using COVID as an excuse to go absolutely ape-shyte and they're actually saying as much.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Cost in the U.S. vs China is a factor, but it is not the only issue. The U.S. does not have the capacity to manufacture some components in volume.

This NYT article from 2019 concerning Apple's inability to find a U.S. supplier of screws is an example.

>>>Despite a trade war between the United States and China and past admonishments from President Trump “to start building their damn computers and things in this country,” Apple is unlikely to bring its manufacturing closer to home.

A tiny screw illustrates why.

In 2012, Apple’s chief executive, Timothy D. Cook, went on prime-time television to announce that Apple would make a Mac computer in the United States. . . . But when Apple began making the $3,000 computer in Austin, Tex., it struggled to find enough screws . . . In China, Apple relied on factories that can produce vast quantities of custom screws on short notice. In Texas, where they say everything is bigger, it turned out the screw suppliers were not.

Tests of new versions of the computer were hamstrung because a 20-employee machine shop that Apple’s manufacturing contractor was relying on could produce at most 1,000 screws a day. The screw shortage was one of several problems that postponed sales of the computer for months, the people who worked on the project said. By the time the computer was ready for mass production, Apple had ordered screws from China. . . .

“The skill here is just incredible,” Mr. Cook said at a conference in China in late 2017. Making Apple products requires state-of-the-art machines and lots of people who know how to run them, he said.

“In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.” . . .

Mr. Cook has also disputed that cheap labor is the reason Apple is still in China. But it doesn’t hurt. The minimum wage in Zhengzhou, China, home of the world’s biggest iPhone factory, is roughly $2.10 an hour, including benefits. Apple said the starting pay for workers assembling its products there was about $3.15 an hour. Compensation for similar jobs in the United States is significantly higher. <<<

A Tiny Screw Shows Why iPhones Won’t Be ‘Assembled in U.S.A.’ (Published 2019)

Apple decided several years ago to produce a high-end Mac in Texas. The problems that surfaced illustrate the challenges of domestic manufacturing.

www.nytimes.com

According to the following article, China is no longer a low-cost country:

Global Labor Rates: China is no longer a low-cost country

With worldwide shortages and supply chain disruptions, companies have changed how they source and manufacture parts and finished products. The Reshoring Institute studied and compared global labor rates around the world—and what follows are the high-level results of a study comparing labor rates...

www.logisticsmgmt.com

That doesn't mean, however, that China is a high-cost country.

Having said that, the cost of money is basically the same everywhere. The cost to run an automated machine is about the same everywhere (absent government subsidies, of course).

 

[Trell]

Who will set up and repair the machinery? Certainly not the robots and engineers.

That may be, but people will be needed for non-manufacturing jobs, like maintenance, setup/repair of equipment and many mid-level jobs that aren't engineering. Also, we (the US) need to make more items that are repairable. I went to a shop that repairs and re-manufactures electric motors and in the 30+ years of going there, they always seemed busy. These are motors for machinery, BTW- they had one hanging from a chain hoist that must have been 200HP.

But the number of jobs will be limited and far less than earlier due to automation and use of robots.

So the focus of taxation on labor has to change, eventually, with factories mostly having robots working 24H a day.

For some states that is much easier to handle than others. Rural areas will be even more left behind than they are today, and will need even more support than ever.

 

[highfigh]

But the number of jobs will be limited and far less than earlier due to automation and use of robots.

So the focus of taxation on labor has to change, eventually, with factories mostly having robots working 24H a day.

For some states that is much easier to handle than others. Rural areas will be even more left behind than they are today, and will need even more support than ever.

You need to look into this- many companies that were based in Northern states starting to shift production to Southern states a long time ago. There's a lot of manual assembly WRT smaller items that robots aren't well suited for. They're great in automotive, though- they're consistent, never take long breaks, don't call in sick, never come in with a hangover,.........

For that matter, they don't go to a bar for breaks, slam a bunch of shots, grab beer for later and go back to work in a factory. I used to go to a place to meet friends for dinner and a couple of drinks and at 8:20 PM every Thursday evening, Briggs & Stratton workers would show up to grab dinner & their shots, cash their paychecks and go back.

That showed some real flaws in management at that factory.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Cost in the U.S. vs China is a factor, but it is not the only issue. The U.S. does not have the capacity to manufacture some components in volume.

This NYT article from 2019 concerning Apple's inability to find a U.S. supplier of screws is an example.

>>>Despite a trade war between the United States and China and past admonishments from President Trump “to start building their damn computers and things in this country,” Apple is unlikely to bring its manufacturing closer to home.

A tiny screw illustrates why.

In 2012, Apple’s chief executive, Timothy D. Cook, went on prime-time television to announce that Apple would make a Mac computer in the United States. . . . But when Apple began making the $3,000 computer in Austin, Tex., it struggled to find enough screws . . . In China, Apple relied on factories that can produce vast quantities of custom screws on short notice. In Texas, where they say everything is bigger, it turned out the screw suppliers were not.

Tests of new versions of the computer were hamstrung because a 20-employee machine shop that Apple’s manufacturing contractor was relying on could produce at most 1,000 screws a day. The screw shortage was one of several problems that postponed sales of the computer for months, the people who worked on the project said. By the time the computer was ready for mass production, Apple had ordered screws from China. . . .

“The skill here is just incredible,” Mr. Cook said at a conference in China in late 2017. Making Apple products requires state-of-the-art machines and lots of people who know how to run them, he said.

“In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.” . . .

Mr. Cook has also disputed that cheap labor is the reason Apple is still in China. But it doesn’t hurt. The minimum wage in Zhengzhou, China, home of the world’s biggest iPhone factory, is roughly $2.10 an hour, including benefits. Apple said the starting pay for workers assembling its products there was about $3.15 an hour. Compensation for similar jobs in the United States is significantly higher. <<<

A Tiny Screw Shows Why iPhones Won’t Be ‘Assembled in U.S.A.’ (Published 2019)

Apple decided several years ago to produce a high-end Mac in Texas. The problems that surfaced illustrate the challenges of domestic manufacturing.

www.nytimes.com

According to the following article, China is no longer a low-cost country:

View attachment 60828

Global Labor Rates: China is no longer a low-cost country

With worldwide shortages and supply chain disruptions, companies have changed how they source and manufacture parts and finished products. The Reshoring Institute studied and compared global labor rates around the world—and what follows are the high-level results of a study comparing labor rates...

www.logisticsmgmt.com

That doesn't mean, however, that China is a high-cost country.

Having said that, the cost of money is basically the same everywhere. The cost to run an automated machine is about the same everywhere (absent government subsidies, of course).

Code for cheap labor is the reason we're over there.
Also China probably kicks our ass in production time.

 

[highfigh]

Code for cheap labor is the reason we're over there.
Also China probably kicks our ass in production time.

In the '70s, US manufacturers moved to Mexico for TV production because Japan was kicking our butt. When they still kicked our butt, the US enacted tariffs. Then, Korea started kicking our butt, as well. Lather, rinse, repeat. It has ALWAYS been about cheaper labor and nobody agrees on the causes of high US labor costs- they certainly won't admit it but if the countries were to compare everything that contributes to the cost of labor, they would see something that affects American labor but not low pay, foreign labor.

Another thing that affects what is made here vs overseas- in the US, we can't manufacture with specific materials because they're toxic, but they can. Some materials can be used here, but the cost to ensure no environmental harm is very high.

Now that our schools have stopped teaching Shop, it will take a long time to catch up, if that's even possible but the truth is, people can still be trained even if they didn't take shop classes, so it's not all doom and gloom.

 

[Dude#1279435]

In the '70s, US manufacturers moved to Mexico for TV production because Japan was kicking our butt. When they still kicked our butt, the US enacted tariffs. Then, Korea started kicking our butt, as well. Lather, rinse, repeat. It has ALWAYS been about cheaper labor and nobody agrees on the causes of high US labor costs- they certainly won't admit it but if the countries were to compare everything that contributes to the cost of labor, they would see something that affects American labor but not low pay, foreign labor.

Another thing that affects what is made here vs overseas- in the US, we can't manufacture with specific materials because they're toxic, but they can. Some materials can be used here, but the cost to ensure no environmental harm is very high.

Now that our schools have stopped teaching Shop, it will take a long time to catch up, if that's even possible but the truth is, people can still be trained even if they didn't take shop classes, so it's not all doom and gloom.

If you took everything off the table, I still think China/Japan kick our ass production wise.

 

[highfigh]

If you took everything off the table, I still think China/Japan kick our ass production wise.

Do you know about how the US automakers snubbed offers of help to make them more efficient, which led directly to Japanese automakers kicking the living crap out of American cars? That should have been a lesson easily learned, but Noooo!, Noooooooooo!, that would have been too easy.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Code for cheap labor is the reason we're over there.
Also China probably kicks our ass in production time.

Labor rates in China are 4 times higher than Mexico and India. "Cheap labor" is not "the" reason we're over there (China).

 

[Dude#1279435]

Labor rates in China are 4 times higher than Mexico and India. "Cheap labor" is not "the" reason we're over there (China).

Explain to me the reasons please.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Explain to me the reasons please.

No.

In my prior post I said:

>>>Cost in the U.S. vs China is a factor, but it is not the only issue. The U.S. does not have the capacity to manufacture some components in volume. This NYT article from 2019 concerning Apple's inability to find a U.S. supplier of screws is an example.<<<

Your response:

>>>Code for cheap labor is the reason we're over there.<<<

My post not in any way shape or form "code" for the opposite of what what my post said.

Bugger off.

 

[harley52]

Ladies and gentleman the day is approaching more swiftly than ever before that America will have to go thru a period of sacrifices in order to bring some manufacturing of all kinds of goods back to the states. Hopefully we can put off a major conflict with china long enough to bring some of the critical goods we need to manufacture back here. As it stands now china could strangle us by not manufacturing and or exporting certain goods to America. Looks like only thing holding china back is mainly greed amongst other issues.

What would America do if tomorrow china decided it would no longer be supplying the medications it manufacturers to the US. That’s just one of many things manufacturered in china that could cause great harm to us. Include electronics of all kinds and we’d be in a world of hurt. Of course we would cut off china from goods we manufacture. Sure we could get some meds and electronics from other countries but, other countries are only selling a certain amount of these goods to us out of fear of short changing their own needs. Remember how the baby formula shortage went when trying to get some of that formula from Europe.
Some food for thought. It’s time to begin being a pita with our representatives and senators. The white house not so much. They’ve shown how they feel about us along with past administrations.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Ladies and gentleman the day is approaching more swiftly than ever before that America will have to go thru a period of sacrifices in order to bring some manufacturing of all kinds of goods back to the states. Hopefully we can put off a major conflict with china long enough to bring some of the critical goods we need to manufacture back here. As it stands now china could strangle us by not manufacturing and or exporting certain goods to America. Looks like only thing holding china back is mainly greed amongst other issues.

What would America do if tomorrow china decided it would no longer be supplying the medications it manufacturers to the US. That’s just one of many things manufacturered in china that could cause great harm to us. Include electronics of all kinds and we’d be in a world of hurt. Of course we would cut off china from goods we manufacture. Sure we could get some meds and electronics from other countries but, other countries are only selling a certain amount of these goods to us out of fear of short changing their own needs. Remember how the baby formula shortage went when trying to get some of that formula from Europe.
Some food for thought. It’s time to begin being a pita with our representatives and senators. The white house not so much. They’ve shown how they feel about us along with past administrations.

Sacrifices means less pay, less benes to compete with overseas. In a country driven by consumption. That's the difficulty. Too much govt spending really.

 

[Trell]

Sacrifices means less pay, less benes to compete with overseas. In a country driven by consumption. That's the difficulty. Too much govt spending really.

Where do you want to cut?

From https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/where-do-our-federal-tax-dollars-go

 

[Dude#1279435]

Where do you want to cut?

From https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/where-do-our-federal-tax-dollars-go

View attachment 60888

I dunno. What I was getting at is for the US to have autonomy from China etc, we'd have to stop consuming, spend less, and accept lower pay, less benes, and basically no PTO. Now I'm no economic expert, but it just seems to me that's the antithesis of America. Our prices would have to drop so low well we'd be a third world country to compete with $3-4/hour pay.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I dunno. What I was getting at is for the US to have autonomy from China etc, we'd have to stop consuming, spend less, and accept lower pay, less benes, and basically no PTO. Now I'm no economic expert, but it just seems to me that's the antithesis of America. Our prices would have to drop so low well we'd be a third world country to compete with $3-4/hour pay.

Don't forget why the treasury income is so low to cause a good bit of this.
May need to read the history of the great depression in 1929, what followed, and why it took to WWII to recover.
How did Bill Clinton have a surplus for almost two years.