Coronavirus

[davidscott]

Here in northeast Fla all covid numbers are slowly going down. Hopefully with vaccinations, recovery from infections, and a somewhat milder strain maybe this thing will eventually become more like the seasonal flu.

 

[MaxInValrico]

Here in northeast Fla all covid numbers are slowly going down. Hopefully with vaccinations, recovery from infections, and a somewhat milder strain maybe this thing will eventually become more like the seasonal flu.

That is exactly what will/has happened. Coronavirus is taking the same path, albeit at a faster rate as the influenza virus did 100 years ago. Unfortunately, our society has lost much of its' discipline and now demands immediate gratification in all of life's endeavors.

 

[Mr._Clark]

That is exactly what will/has happened. Coronavirus is taking the same path, albeit at a faster rate as the influenza virus did 100 years ago. Unfortunately, our society has lost much of its' discipline and now demands immediate gratification in all of life's endeavors.

At the risk of getting nit picky, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Coronavirus is taking the same path, albeit at a faster rate as the influenza virus did 100 years ago."? (I don't disagree with you about loss of discipline and immediate gratification).

Most accounts of the 1918 pandemic I've read describe it as having three waves over a period of about a year or a little longer (spring 1918-spring/summer 1919).

>>>The first outbreak of flu-like illnesses was detected in the U.S. in March [of 1918] . . . The third wave of the pandemic subsided during the summer of 1919. "<<<

1918 Pandemic Influenza: Three Waves | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC

1918 Pandemic Influenza: Three Waves - CDC

www.cdc.gov

I have seen some reports to the effect that there was a 4th wave in the winter of 2020:

>>>By summer [of 1919] the virus had run its course in many parts of the world, but some historians suggest that there was a fourth wave in winter 1920, though it was far less virulent.<<<

How Long Did the Flu Pandemic of 1918 Last? | Britannica

The influenza pandemic of 1918–19 was the most severe pandemic of the 20th century and, in terms of total numbers of deaths, among the most devastating in human history. Outbreaks occurred in every inhabited part of the world in three waves. The second wave was the most deadly.

www.britannica.com

According to the CDC museum (which is ironically closed right now, apparently due to COVID*), the first COVID case was detected in the U.S. in January of 2020. Even if the present wave is the end, we're a little over 2 years into it.

>>>January 20, 2020
CDC confirms the first U.S. laboratory-confirmed case of COVID-19 in the U.S. from samples taken on January 18 in Washington state.<<<

CDC Museum COVID-19 Timeline

Moments in the COVID-19 pandemic from its known origins to today.

www.cdc.gov

It seems to me the COVID pandemic has already been with us for about 2 years, so I don't see how it's on the same path at a faster rate?

*[sarcasm/lame humor alert] I just can't wait until the CDC museum is open again this spring so I can go see all the new COVID exhibits!

 

[GO-NAD!]

Is it low grade or nuclear?

However you like it.

 

[Swerd]

I would guess that the largest factors accounting for the difference in hospital/ICU admissions and deaths are:

1) Shear cases numbers per capita.
2) Higher vaccination rates in Canada (even though vaccination has been free in both countries).
3) Stricter public health measures in Canada and greater willingness to adhere to them.

I wouldn't think that universal health coverage can account for these factors. A useful comparison would be ICU admissions* and deaths as a percentage of cases, which may reflect differences in health care systems.

*There may be higher ICU admissions in the US, due to delayed hospitalization because of inadequate/no insurance coverage.

Of course, there will always questions about actual case numbers in both countries, as many cases are not being officially diagnosed and included in the stats.

I agree and disagree.

1) The higher case numbers per capita, and the higher deaths per capital in the US vs. Canada can best be explained by the higher percentage of vaccination in Canada. But only if you're looking for a single reason why they are different. I think there could easily be more than a single reason.

2) The higher ICU admissions in the US vs. Canada cannot be explained simply by the different percentage of vaccination 64% in the US vs. 80% in Canada. Those numbers are close if you remember that achieving herd immunity (for the omicron strain) is estimated to require 90-95% of the population to be immunized. Anything less than that is a population not yet immunized enough to be protected – close but no cigar. In that sense, 64% and 80% aren't that different. Protection from an infectious disease by vaccination isn't linear with regard to the percent of the population that is vaccinated.

That last graph can be best explained by differences in how health care is run in the two countries.

In Canada, a national health care system allows access to various levels of health care, from preventative medicine visits, to sick visits to the doctor, to hospitalization, to intensive care. All people must participate in the system, pay up front, and it costs little or nothing extra (?) for individuals to receive care. A Covid-19 patient must start at a low level of medical care, and graduate from one level to the next higher. (Please correct me if my understanding of this system is wrong.)

In the US, there are multiple health insurance systems that vary in cost, level of health care covered, and availability, depending on what state you live in. Often, but not always, there is extra cost for doctor visits, hospitalization, etc. A significant number of people pay for minimal levels of health insurance, and do not have primary care doctors at all. Roughly 20% (?) of the US population has no health insurance whatsoever.

As a result, many people in the US seek medical care only after they get sick enough, often going straight to hospital emergency departments. If they've waited longer than they should, they have advanced disease. This has been especially true for Covid-19 because it can progress so rapidly.

This is why the US ICU numbers are so much higher than in Canada. Canada has fewer barriers to health care in general, and allows sick people to seek care earlier in their disease. The US discourages people from seeking lower levels of health care, but does not prevent them from going straight to a hospital emergency room. From the ER to the ICU (or worse) if they're really bad off.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I agree and disagree.

1) The higher case numbers per capita, and the higher deaths per capital in the US vs. Canada can best be explained by the higher percentage of vaccination in Canada. But only if you're looking for a single reason why they are different. I think there could easily be more than a single reason.

2) The higher ICU admissions in the US vs. Canada cannot be explained simply by the different percentage of vaccination 64% in the US vs. 80% in Canada. Those numbers are close if you remember that achieving herd immunity (for the omicron strain) is estimated to require 90-95% of the population to be immunized. Anything less than that is a population not yet immunized enough to be protected – close but no cigar. In that sense, 64% and 80% aren't that different. Protection from an infectious disease by vaccination isn't linear with regard to the percent of the population that is vaccinated.

That last graph can be best explained by differences in how health care is run in the two countries.
View attachment 53874
In Canada, a national health care system allows access to various levels of health care, from preventative medicine visits, to sick visits to the doctor, to hospitalization, to intensive care. All people must participate in the system, pay up front, and it costs little or nothing extra (?) for individuals to receive care. A Covid-19 patient must start at a low level of medical care, and graduate from one level to the next higher. (Please correct me if my understanding of this system is wrong.)

In the US, there are multiple health insurance systems that vary in cost, level of health care covered, and availability, depending on what state you live in. Often, but not always, there is extra cost for doctor visits, hospitalization, etc. A significant number of people pay for minimal levels of health insurance, and do not have primary care doctors at all. Roughly 20% (?) of the US population has no health insurance whatsoever.

As a result, many people in the US seek medical care only after they get sick enough, often going straight to hospital emergency departments. If they've waited longer than they should, they have advanced disease. This has been especially true for Covid-19 because it can progress so rapidly.

This is why the US ICU numbers are so much higher than in Canada. Canada has fewer barriers to health care in general, and allows sick people to seek care earlier in their disease. The US discourages people from seeking lower levels of health care, but does not prevent them from going straight to a hospital emergency room. From the ER to the ICU (or worse) if they're really bad off.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. I wasn't suggesting that any one of the factors I stated was largely responsible for the different outcomes, but a combination of all three. I do agree that the difference in vaccination rates isn't huge and is certainly not the main factor.

The US has had about 2.5-ish times more confirmed cases per capita, which I can't help thinking has to be a large factor in the difference in hospitalization/ICU admissions. In retrospect, maybe my factor 3, should have been part B to factor 1 - stricter public health measure and willingness to adhere to them* leading to fewer cases.

Your understanding of universal health care is largely correct. The provinces and territories all individually administer their own health care systems, but must conform with the policies of the Canada Health Act. Coverage is transferable between provinces (if I should need care while visiting Ontario, I can get it, without cost).

In theory, there should be no reason to delay seeking care. There have been exceptions. Some people "don't want to be a bother" and put off seeking care until their condition deteriorates to the point at which there is no choice. There are stubborn people who refuse to go to a hospital. Also, ambulance services are not free. There are private insurance plans that cover such things (which I have), but people with low incomes don't have to pay. Some people seem to be unaware of that and avoid calling. So, there are reasons that some people have delayed seeking care, but they are few. Cost is not a valid reason.

I guess I would summarize by saying that I don't think public health care is responsible for reducing the number of COVID cases, but accounts for a portion of the lower ICU admission/death rates.

*The Clown-voy crowd being a distinct exception.

 

[SithZedi]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. I wasn't suggesting that any one of the factors I stated was largely responsible for the different outcomes, but a combination of all three. I do agree that the difference in vaccination rates isn't huge and is certainly not the main factor.

The US has had about 2.5-ish times more confirmed cases per capita, which I can't help thinking has to be a large factor in the difference in hospitalization/ICU admissions. In retrospect, maybe my factor 3, should have been part B to factor 1 - stricter public health measure and willingness to adhere to them* leading to fewer cases.

Your understanding of universal health care is largely correct. The provinces and territories all individually administer their own health care systems, but must conform with the policies of the Canada Health Act. Coverage is transferable between provinces (if I should need care while visiting Ontario, I can get it, without cost).

In theory, there should be no reason to delay seeking care. There have been exceptions. Some people "don't want to be a bother" and put off seeking care until their condition deteriorates to the point at which there is no choice. There are stubborn people who refuse to go to a hospital. Also, ambulance services are not free. There are private insurance plans that cover such things (which I have), but people with low incomes don't have to pay. Some people seem to be unaware of that and avoid calling. So, there are reasons that some people have delayed seeking care, but they are few. Cost is not a valid reason.

I guess I would summarize by saying that I don't think public health care is responsible for reducing the number of COVID cases, but accounts for a portion of the lower ICU admission/death rates.

*The Clown-voy crowd being a distinct exception.

Would add a fourth reason that 's probably responsible for a portion of that 64% vs 82% difference. Despite the many similarities between the US and Canada, the racial demographics by numbers and historical experience with government are different.

 

[cpp]

Here in northeast Fla all covid numbers are slowly going down. Hopefully with vaccinations, recovery from infections, and a somewhat milder strain maybe this thing will eventually become more like the seasonal flu.

I think as far as Fla is concerned, its the tourist that have left and gone back home and taken their covid infections with them . Covid started dropping when tourist season came to a close around the central and north central Fla areas ( where I am) . Now we are in speed week this week and then bike week I see the numbers going back up in Volusia and Flagler counties.

 

[cpp]

French fries, with or without the delicious cheese and gravy?

I don't even find that appealing at all. A good crispy fry covered in gravy and cheese. Good grief Yuck . MIght as well cover that with chili LOL

 

[Mr._Clark]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. I wasn't suggesting that any one of the factors I stated was largely responsible for the different outcomes, but a combination of all three. I do agree that the difference in vaccination rates isn't huge and is certainly not the main factor.

The US has had about 2.5-ish times more confirmed cases per capita, which I can't help thinking has to be a large factor in the difference in hospitalization/ICU admissions. In retrospect, maybe my factor 3, should have been part B to factor 1 - stricter public health measure and willingness to adhere to them* leading to fewer cases.

Your understanding of universal health care is largely correct. The provinces and territories all individually administer their own health care systems, but must conform with the policies of the Canada Health Act. Coverage is transferable between provinces (if I should need care while visiting Ontario, I can get it, without cost).

In theory, there should be no reason to delay seeking care. There have been exceptions. Some people "don't want to be a bother" and put off seeking care until their condition deteriorates to the point at which there is no choice. There are stubborn people who refuse to go to a hospital. Also, ambulance services are not free. There are private insurance plans that cover such things (which I have), but people with low incomes don't have to pay. Some people seem to be unaware of that and avoid calling. So, there are reasons that some people have delayed seeking care, but they are few. Cost is not a valid reason.

I guess I would summarize by saying that I don't think public health care is responsible for reducing the number of COVID cases, but accounts for a portion of the lower ICU admission/death rates.

*The Clown-voy crowd being a distinct exception.

In terms of the total deaths, I'd guess that another factor is the timing of the vaccinations vs the infections. I haven't gone back and looked at the numbers, but if I remember correctly Canada did not have nearly as many infections per capita as the U.S. during the waves that occurred prior to the vaccine rollouts. Assuming my memory is correct, this could of course be the result of numerous factors.

 

[Mr._Clark]

I don't even find that appealing at all. A good crispy fry covered in gravy and cheese. Good grief Yuck . MIght as well cover that with chili LOL

Just thinking about gravy on fries freaks me out.

Having said that, tater tot nachos are actually pretty good.

 

[cpp]

Just thinking about gravy on fries freaks me out.

Having said that, tater tot nachos are actually pretty good.

I can't enjoy this fine cuisine anymore as I can't handle starches every since my saliva glands got beamed by radiation and the lack of taste of some foods is another benefit. .

 

[Trell]

I don't even find that appealing at all. A good crispy fry covered in gravy and cheese. Good grief Yuck . MIght as well cover that with chili LOL

Yummy! Don't you Americans put peanut butter on everything, so how does that taste?

 

[cpp]

Well I guess my immune system is not up to par, as of Monday I got my 2 booster. So I should be DNA revised and track-able for sure per the anti-vaxers . PS, not the first side effect.

 

[highfigh]

Au contraire! It has become quite clear that French fries, in combination with cheese curds and gravy, work just as well as vaccines.

Crinkle cut, straight cut, steak fries, shoestring or wedges?

It matters, if you care. Some hold more gravy.

 

[highfigh]

Yummy! Don't you Americans put peanut butter on everything, so how does that taste?

Where did you hear that? No. Just no.

I don't have a problem with peanut butter- I just bought some, but some things just wouldn't be good with that. I can't imagine putting it on most fish, a good steak or burger.....

 

[cpp]

Yummy! Don't you Americans put peanut butter on everything, so how does that taste?

Peanut butter and Jelly oh yes and some , not me, put peanut butter and bananas on toast not sure how you can even eat that with all the gummy stuff going on.

OH PS, China and India use a lot of peanuts in their cooking,

 

[highfigh]

You guys who are posting long relies with charts, links and graphs are ignoring the main reason the US has outpaced Canada by such a wide margin- vaccine hesitance in ethnic groups. There's more distrust of government in some groups that prevents them wanting to be vaccinated.

Addressing Justified Vaccine Hesitancy in the Black Community - PMC

The Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic has had a terrible and long-lasting impact on the world. As the infection spreads, the projected mortality and economic devastation are unprecedented. Racism and its subsequent effects on social and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hell, around here, it's hard to get people to wear their mask properly, with their nose covered. Some don't even cover their mouth.

 

[highfigh]

Peanut butter and Jelly oh yes and some , not me, peanut butter and bananas on toast not sure how you can even eat that with all the gummy stuff going on.

OH PS, China and India use a lot of peanuts in their cooking,

In addition to adding flavor, ground peanuts or peanut butter are sometimes used to thicken the sauce in some Asian dishes.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You guys who are posting long relies with charts, links and graphs are ignoring the main reason the US has outpaced Canada by such a wide margin- vaccine hesitance in ethnic groups. There's more distrust of government in some groups that prevents them wanting to be vaccinated.

Addressing Justified Vaccine Hesitancy in the Black Community - PMC

The Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic has had a terrible and long-lasting impact on the world. As the infection spreads, the projected mortality and economic devastation are unprecedented. Racism and its subsequent effects on social and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hell, around here, it's hard to get people to wear their mask properly, with their nose covered. Some don't even cover their mouth.

Vaccine hesitancy amongst some ethnicities is a thing in Canada, as well.