Coronavirus

[mtrycrafts]

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Research is what goes on in a scientific laboratory, where work is done to learn something new, not previously described or published. It's difficult and time consuming. Searching the internet for already published information is called 'looking up stuff'. It isn't research. Unfortunately, I too often see people misuse the term research, when they really mean 'look up alternative (ie wrong) facts' that are consistent with a fondly held but wrong conspiracy theory.

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Same as "theory" used by the general public. Certainly not a scientific theory but a speculation by that public person, guessing.

 

[panteragstk]

This is categorically wrong. These vaccines are absolutely not gene therapy. For it to be gene therapy, the gene intended as therapy must be taken up by cells, incorporated into nuclear DNA in those cells, and be passed on to the progeny of those transformed cells when they divide. The messenger RNA of two of the Covid-19 vaccines have been thoroughly tested in cells and animal models, long before it was tested in human clinical trials. The results of those lab tests clearly demonstrated that the message from the vaccine material was not incorporated into cellular genome, and was not passed on to progeny cells. If you have evidence to the contrary, I defy you to show links to scientific publications.
I'm particularly bothered by your misuse of the word research.

Research is what goes on in a scientific laboratory, where work is done to learn something new, not previously described or published. It's difficult and time consuming. Searching the internet for already published information is called 'looking up stuff'. It isn't research. Unfortunately, I too often see people misuse the term research, when they really mean 'look up alternative (ie wrong) facts' that are consistent with a fondly held but wrong conspiracy theory.

Thanks to @NINaudio, @Trell, @pantergstk, and others. You've been good wingmen on this thread, and I do appreciate it. Thanks!

Exactly. When people tell me they've done their own research the FIRST thing I think of is "wow, you have access to all that lab equipment and test subjects?" Sometimes I say it.

I do understand that people are having a hard time and if we come across as attacking know that we are at over 300 pages on this thread and it's just exhausting at this point. Sure, there are "different viewpoints" but facts are facts. If you aren't getting information that is factually correct and verified to be correct, then we simply don't want to hear it.

Debate is fine, but agreed upon factual science isn't up for debate unless it can be disproven, or new information is found that changes the science. Or that's how I look at it.

 

[TLS Guy]

I thought this was an open discussion, I would have never posted in here if I had known it was a thread to push the mainstream narrative. You don't have to call the moderators, I just will stop posting if I'm not allowed to cite the opposing views on the subject.

This is not a matter of having a view. This has nothing to do with politics, or should not.

I will set you straight. What you are spouting is dangerous and lethal nonsense.

People who do not get vaccinated are an absolute menace, no if or buts about it. They are spreading disease and potential death sentences. In a public health crisis like this people absolutely should be required to be vaccinated and NOT have a right of refusal.

First of all catching Covid-19 is thousands of times more dangerous than the vaccination. The Delta variant is so infectious, there is no escaping it, unless you are protected by the vaccine. 100% of unvaccinated will get Covid-19. That is not just me saying that, but Sir Andrew Pollard speaking to a cross Parliamentary group of members of Parliament.

So we have to get the whole world vaccinated. The reason is that we have a very dangerous virus on the loose.

Just last week the death stats for the US were published.

Now you can see that Covid-19 was the third leading cause of death in the US last year.

However you can see that for the preceding years deaths were pretty constant. Now one of the best way of lookin at the true impact of a pandemic like we have, it to look at the excess deaths. The excess deaths are just over 3 million for the last year. So in fact Covid-19 actually killed over 3 million Americans last year.

We now have incredibly safe and effective vaccines. They are genetically engineered, but are not gene therapy. They DO NOT alter your DNA.

What they do is give instructions to the ribosomes in your cells to manufacture a variety of antigens of Covid-19 to create an immune response.

Now when you catch Covid-19 the virus enters your cell and uses the same ribosomes to make millions of replicas of the virus which cause cells to die. This makes people seriously ill and more than few die, and now even children.

Now no vaccine is 100% effective. However almost all breakthrough infections, are very mild. And the latest research from last week shows that viral shedding is 10 fold less in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. This data is for the Delta variant. The vaccines are highly effective at reducing hospitalization and death.

So people like you are antisocial in the extreme. Refusing the vaccines is not a choice society can, or should tolerate.

Hospital staff are now worn ragged treating seriously ill cases that could be prevented. This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Or to put it another way it is a pandemic of the obtusely stupid.

In addition to the above, you take resources away from other patients with a myriad of other diseases like cancer and vascular disease, for instance.

In addition there are many in society who are immune compromised. For instance I have a 21 year old grandson who was born with variable combined immunodeficiency syndrome. People like you present an intolerable threat to individuals like him

So to end, I'm going to give you a direct order to get you and your family vaccinated ASAP. Not to do so is a total abrogation of your responsibility to your family and society. Getting vaccinated is NOT a matter of personal choice, but a matter of societal responsibility.

 

[adk highlander]

Sir, people that are fully vaccinated are getting and spreading the virus. A vaccine would immunize you from getting and spreading the virus, so it's not a vaccine, it gene therapy. With a vaccine, which seems like from time immemorial, they inject you with an attenuated portion of the actual germ or virus so that your body would build up an immunity. That didn't happen with what they injecting people with today. If you would deep dive and do your research you would figure that out. Stop listening to the far-left media who are clearly in the pockets of Big Pharma that trying to fully censor any opposing views on the subject.

Sir, you have 0 grasp of science and have no understanding of how this works in reality. Please read Dr. Mark's (TLS guy) comments above and I hope it will bring some accurate and science based information to you. If not then you go on believing in Santa Claus and your savior tRump.

 

[Mr._Clark]

However you can see that for the preceding years deaths were pretty constant. Now one of the best way of lookin at the true impact of a pandemic like we have, it to look at the excess deaths. The excess deaths are just over 3 million for the last year. So in fact Covid-19 actually killed over 3 million Americans last year.

Not to nit pick, but I don't see the 3 million excess deaths as I understand the term. Wouldn't the excess deaths be more in the range of 500,000?

Here's part of a table listing excess deaths for part of 2020:

Excess Deaths From COVID-19 and Other Causes in the US, March 2020 to January 2021

This study updates an analysis of US mortality in 2020, including deaths due to COVID-19 as well as all other causes.

jamanetwork.com

Isn't the excess deaths (roughly speaking) the difference between total deaths in 2020 vs the average total for the last several years adjusted for population changes, etc.? What am I missing?

I'm not arguing that vaccines aren't effective, etc.

 

[TLS Guy]

Not to nit pick, but I don't see the 3 million excess deaths as I understand the term. Wouldn't the excess deaths be more in the range of 500,000?

Here's part of a table listing excess deaths for part of 2020:

View attachment 50218

Excess Deaths From COVID-19 and Other Causes in the US, March 2020 to January 2021

This study updates an analysis of US mortality in 2020, including deaths due to COVID-19 as well as all other causes.

jamanetwork.com

Isn't the excess deaths (roughly speaking) the difference between total deaths in 2020 vs the average total for the last several years adjusted for population changes, etc.? What am I missing?

I'm not arguing that vaccines aren't effective, etc.

You are correct. Fat finger syndrome! It should be 503976 compared to 2019. That is still a lot.

 

[GO-NAD!]

While I'm not in favour of mandatory vaccination to the point where authorities will be pounding on your door if you don't willingly present yourself for the shots, not getting vaccinated must have consequences:
- Access to public venues severely curtailed.
- If you leave your keys in your car and it's stolen, insurance won't cover you. Smash that car while driving drunk, insurance won't cover you. Shouldn't the same apply to unvaccinated COVID patients? While they should receive care, there must be some financial penalty. Or, alternatively, unvaccinated people should have their insurance premiums jacked up, like smokers.

 

[Swerd]

While I'm not in favour of mandatory vaccination to the point where authorities will be pounding on your door if you don't willingly present yourself for the shots, not getting vaccinated must have consequences:

I agree, there must be consequences for avoiding vaccination.

- Access to public venues severely curtailed.

How could that be enforced? Who would check vaccine cards and deny access to those not vaccinated? There aren't nearly enough police or public health officials to do that. I can't see that working if it puts the onus on private enterprise to screen people entering their places of business.

- If you leave your keys in your car and it's stolen, insurance won't cover you. Smash that car while driving drunk, insurance won't cover you. Shouldn't the same apply to unvaccinated COVID patients? While they should receive care, there must be some financial penalty. Or, alternatively, unvaccinated people should have their insurance premiums jacked up, like smokers.

I like the idea of paying some kind of penalty through health insurance, but in the USA it might take a year or more before people renewed their health insurance. Insurance incentives have worked in the past to get people to wear seat belts in a car & to stop smoking. Those were slow-acting threats to public health. I don't know if insurance penalties could work as well to stop a rapid threat from a highly infectious viral disease. Besides, facing a large bill for medical care doesn't seem to be enough incentive for people who believe, magically, that they can't get sick. All this is in the US, where there is no national health care insurance. I don't know how it works in Canada, but I doubt if it would be quick.

There are examples in the US where public health officials, armed with a legal court order, vaccinated refusers. In 1991 in Philadelphia, about 1,000 children were vaccinated for measles in a private school run by a religion that made a practice to refuse medical treatments. The public health department in that city obtained a legal court order, and were prepared to act quickly.

But how could this be done on a large scale for roughly 20 to 25% of the US population, much less in states, such as Texas or Florida, where politicians and police will not cooperate with that effort? This reminds me when public schools in the southern US were forcibly integrated in the 1950s & 60s. It took a large scale effort by uniformed, armed National Guard forces.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I agree, there must be consequences for avoiding vaccination.
How could that be enforced? Who would check vaccine cards and deny access to those not vaccinated? There aren't nearly enough police or public health officials to do that. I can't see that working if it puts the onus on private enterprise to screen people entering their places of business.
I like the idea of paying some kind of penalty through health insurance, but in the USA it might take a year or more before people renewed their health insurance. Insurance incentives have worked in the past to get people to wear seat belts in a car & to stop smoking. Those were slow-acting threats to public health. I don't know if insurance penalties could work as well to stop a rapid threat from a highly infectious viral disease. Besides, facing a large bill for medical care doesn't seem to be enough incentive for people who believe, magically, that they can't get sick. All this is in the US, where there is no national health care insurance. I don't know how it works in Canada, but I doubt if it would be quick.

There are examples in the US where public health officials, armed with a legal court order, vaccinated refusers. In 1991 in Philadelphia, about 1,000 children were vaccinated for measles in a private school run by a religion that made a practice to refuse medical treatments. The public health department in that city obtained a legal court order, and were prepared to act quickly.

But how could this be done on a large scale for roughly 20 to 25% of the US population, much less in states, such as Texas or Florida, where politicians and police will not cooperate with that effort? This reminds me when public schools in the southern US were forcibly integrated in the 1950s & 60s. It took a large scale effort by uniformed, armed National Guard forces.

I have to admit, enforcement would never be easy. To start, I guess it would involve a vaccine passport of some kind. Beyond that, yes, I agree that it would be quite difficult to ensure compliance. How about making it a prerequisite for driver's license renewal? That would capture most people.

I can understand any reticence on the part of private venues to enforce vaccine requirements - especially in a society with a propensity to carry firearms in public...

I mentioned insurance penalties for the American context, as most AH readers are American. That said, there could be implications for Canadians as well. Our public system covers primary (family doctor) and hospital care. But, generally speaking, most therapies and prescription drugs aren't covered.

Hey, I'm a concept guy. I leave the details for others to work out.

 

[jinjuku]

Sir, people that are fully vaccinated are getting and spreading the virus.

You're a fucking moron. Vaccines aren't brickwall solutions. They are attenuation devices that allow your body to get a head start on anti-body, t-cell, and other protective measures when invaded by a foreign host.

The only disease officially eradicated by a vaccine is smallpox.

Also consider this post a public warning. You have a right to your beliefs but not the facts. If any more-non factual statements come from you I'm going to cool your heels.

 

[Danzilla31]

I have to admit, enforcement would never be easy. To start, I guess it would involve a vaccine passport of some kind. Beyond that, yes, I agree that it would be quite difficult to ensure compliance. How about making it a prerequisite for driver's license renewal? That would capture most people.

I can understand any reticence on the part of private venues to enforce vaccine requirements - especially in a society with a propensity to carry firearms in public...

I mentioned insurance penalties for the American context, as most AH readers are American. That said, there could be implications for Canadians as well. Our public system covers primary (family doctor) and hospital care. But, generally speaking, most therapies and prescription drugs aren't covered.

Hey, I'm a concept guy. I leave the details for others to work out.

But when you think about how many Americans don't even carry insurance is that really going to be effective enough? The drivers license thing could be pretty good though. But what about big cities where some people don't have a license? How about it's required for all legal ID's? That might work

 

[John Parks]

I have to admit, enforcement would never be easy. To start, I guess it would involve a vaccine passport of some kind. Beyond that, yes, I agree that it would be quite difficult to ensure compliance. How about making it a prerequisite for driver's license renewal? That would capture most people.

I can understand any reticence on the part of private venues to enforce vaccine requirements - especially in a society with a propensity to carry firearms in public...

I mentioned insurance penalties for the American context, as most AH readers are American. That said, there could be implications for Canadians as well. Our public system covers primary (family doctor) and hospital care. But, generally speaking, most therapies and prescription drugs aren't covered.

Hey, I'm a concept guy. I leave the details for others to work out.

"in a society with a propensity to carry firearms in public" - really? That is your image of the US? Hate to break it to you...

This reminds me of, in 1981 when John Hinckley attempted to assassinate President Reagan. It turns out he was briefly enrolled at Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Texas (I know all of this because my sister was there at the time). The Philadelphia Inquirer ran a story about him and, not knowing anything about Texas, Texas Tech or Lubbock (but, of course, employing their East Coast biases) wrote something to this effect" "Hinckley attended Texas Tech, where carrying bottles of Jack Daniels and firearms to class was commonplace."

Yeah, pretty much the same thing...

 

[rnatalli]

How could that be enforced? Who would check vaccine cards and deny access to those not vaccinated? There aren't nearly enough police or public health officials to do that. I can't see that working if it puts the onus on private enterprise to screen people entering their places of business.

Same way businesses ensure folks are 21 to drink and severe penalties like loss of business license if you’re caught ignoring the rules. Not perfect and may require a vaccine passport, but the Europeans managed to pull this off so amazing we can’t.

 

[Danzilla31]

Same way businesses ensure folks are 21 to drink and severe penalties like loss of business license if you’re caught ignoring the rules. Not perfect and may require a vaccine passport, but the Europeans managed to pull this off so amazing we can’t.

I can see where at @Swerd is getting at tho. Who regulates the businesses to make sure they are following the rules? Do we have enough man power to cover everywhere? And when your caught breaking the rules it's a little bit different then selling liquor. It's a virus so by the time they are busted you've already spread it further

 

[Danzilla31]

Same way businesses ensure folks are 21 to drink and severe penalties like loss of business license if you’re caught ignoring the rules. Not perfect and may require a vaccine passport, but the Europeans managed to pull this off so amazing we can’t.

When you say the Europeans managed to pull this off are they already using an idea like this to encourage vaccination? Just curious is all. It would be interesting to see how they are doing it.

 

[TLS Guy]

When you say the Europeans managed to pull this off are they already using an idea like this to encourage vaccination? Just curious is all. It would be interesting to see how they are doing it.

The UK have an app on your smart phone that can be scanned to show proof of vaccination. Many venues like night clubs, concert halls and theaters have to use it.

 

[Danzilla31]

The UK have an app on your smart phone that can be scanned to show proof of vaccination. Many venues like night clubs, concert halls and theaters have to use it.

Thanks for the info. That makes sense. We might not drive not everyone has ID or drivers licenses. But I guarantee you literally everyone in the U.S. has got a phone

 

[GO-NAD!]

"in a society with a propensity to carry firearms in public" - really? That is your image of the US? Hate to break it to you...

This reminds me of, in 1981 when John Hinckley attempted to assassinate President Reagan. It turns out he was briefly enrolled at Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Texas (I know all of this because my sister was there at the time). The Philadelphia Inquirer ran a story about him and, not knowing anything about Texas, Texas Tech or Lubbock (but, of course, employing their East Coast biases) wrote something to this effect" "Hinckley attended Texas Tech, where carrying bottles of Jack Daniels and firearms to class was commonplace."

Yeah, pretty much the same thing...

When viewed from the perspective of practically every other developed country, where the practice is verboten, it looks like a propensity.

I was not trying to throw shade, just looking at possible complications in trying to enforce vaccine mandates. I don't think there would be a significant problem with militant anti-vaxxers backing up their self-declared rights with a gun. But, such a scenario would have to be in back of mind for the gatekeepers tasked with enforcing such mandates, which may make them a bit reticent in some (many?) cases.

 

[Alex2507]

Europeans managed to pull this off

Like the metric system, NFW in the USA.

When viewed from the perspective of practically every other developed country, where the practice is verboten, it looks like a propensity.

If you don't carry guns in public the chances of killing someone in your own house goes way up.

Use your head.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Like the metric system, NFW in the USA.



If you don't carry guns in public the chances of killing someone in your own house goes way up.

Use your head.

Silly me. What was I thinking?