confederate symbols

[GO-NAD!]

You make my point exactly. Some of the statues being tore down are of confederates who were actually against slavery, but were instead fighting for state autonomy from a federal government who either didn't understand or care about the issues being faced by the southern states. So were these evil men? I wouldn't say so. At least not the ones who were against slavery, but stood for the other merits of confederacy. People aren't perfect, no system is perfect, condemning someone for the sins of others doesn't do anyone any good.

In other words - states' rights. But, states' rights to do what...?

 

[Push]

Name a few of these anti-slavery confederates?

John S Mosby, Robert E Lee (this one has some controversy) and Gen Wheeler are 3 that immediately come to mind. If I cared enough, I could dig out the old books and bring more to the table. History is never black and white, as much as some would like us to believe.

 

[Push]

In other words - states' rights. But, states' rights to do what...?

To act in their own self interest. You are aware of the difficulties facing the southern states in those days, especially with their federal government enacting rules, taxes and tariffs that favoured the northern states to the DETRIMENT of the southern states. So while slavery was a despicable act, and certainly some of the southern confederates were despicable human beings, its not quite as black and white as cancel culturists would have us believe.

 

[lovinthehd]

John S Mosby, Robert E Lee (this one has some controversy) and Gen Wheeler are 3 that immediately come to mind. If I cared enough, I could dig out the old books and bring more to the table. History is never black and white, as much as some would like us to believe.

LOL General Lee? That doesn't seem too likely, what source has it as controversial? Not familiar with the others so will check them out.

 

[Push]

While some statues of Sir John A. have been taken down or defaced, he certainly won't written out of history books. Statues are erected to commemorate/celebrate historical figures. In retrospect, some figures are judged to be unworthy to be held in such esteem. I'm on the fence about our first PM. The residential school system was nothing short of disastrous for the indigenous peoples. MacDonald was also an alcoholic who had to resign from his first term in office because of the Pacific Railway scandal. But, he was also a brilliant politician and unifier who succeeded in herding the cats together to found a nation. I have to give him credit for that.

Even 10 short years ago, I would have agreed that he will never be written out of the history books. These days, I don't share your faith in the liberal education system. People in the modern era are continually judging history based on our current state of affairs, not on what it was like back then. History CANNOT interpreted without first understanding the conditions faced by those in the era.

 

[lovinthehd]

Even 10 short years ago, I would have agreed that he will never be written out of the history books. These days, I don't share your faith in the liberal education system. People in the modern era are continually judging history based on our current state of affairs, not on what it was like back then. History CANNOT interpreted without first understanding the conditions faced by those in the era.

Liberal education system? LOL compared to turning back the hands of time and moving back into the dark ages with the conservatives? We're going to put creationism back into the schools and ignore the racism and genocide of the white "race"? Have men decide the fate of women's bodies? Start more wars? Good grief. You can learn from history, but to ignore it and stick your heads up someone's conservative ass? NFW.

 

[Push]

LOL General Lee? That doesn't seem too likely, what source has it as controversial? Not familiar with the others so will check them out.

You can doubt it if you want, but Robert Lee's own father was among the first of the southern land owners to begin paying African Americans working wages. Its only recently (~10yrs or so) that historians are beginning to doubt his stance on slavery due to some anecdotal evidence. I don't frankly care that much about the topic to invest a bunch of time into researching something that I took in school 30 years ago.

 

[lovinthehd]

You can doubt it if you want, but Robert Lee's own father was among the first of the southern land owners to begin paying African Americans working wages. Its only recently (~10yrs or so) that historians are beginning to doubt his stance on slavery due to some anecdotal evidence. I don't frankly care that much about the topic to invest a bunch of time into researching something that I took in school 30 years ago.

Never heard that in school that's for sure but then it's been much longer than 10 years since I attended (and more than 30 too). I'll do some looking around but truck all the confederate generals....they were simply treasonous.

 

[Push]

Liberal education system? LOL compared to turning back the hands of time and moving back into the dark ages with the conservatives? We're going to put creationism back into the schools and ignore the racism and genocide of the white "race"? Have men decide the fate of women's bodies? Start more wars? Good grief. You can learn from history, but to ignore it and stick your heads up someone's conservative ass? NFW.

Bahahahahah, pretty big jump you took there, bucky, and you obviously haven't been reading much of what I've wrote. You are aware that in the last 3000 years, every race of human has committed atrocities and genocide against other races? Us "whites" were brutalized by what is now the middle east for hundreds of years. But liberals would have us forget all that, and just remember what happened in last hundred years, as though history from 1000 or 2000 years ago has no place or bearing. Why does it have to be EVIL WHITES or EVIL BLACKS??? Why can't we learn from history and say that the human race has simply been nasty as hell to one another at one point in time or another since we started walking the planet?

 

[lovinthehd]

Bahahahahah, pretty big jump you took there, bucky, and you obviously haven't been reading much of what I've wrote. You are aware that in the last 3000 years, every race of human has committed atrocities and genocide against other races? Us "whites" were brutalized by what is now the middle east for hundreds of years. But Liberals would have us forget all that, and just remember what happened in last hundred years, as though history from 1000 or 2000 years ago has no place or bearing.

So because europe had invasions from all sorts of directions by all sorts of folk, they were brutalized rather than being simply brutal? I don't propose forgetting anything, but whitewashing history as conservatives would have us do....no thanks. I'm more concerned with our recent history of genocide and racism and putting religion in government etc that the "conservatives" would have. I don't think highly of today's "conservatives" as you can tell. Most of them can go truck themselves rather than trying to truck everyone else...,

 

[GO-NAD!]

You can doubt it if you want, but Robert Lee's own father was among the first of the southern land owners to begin paying African Americans working wages. Its only recently (~10yrs or so) that historians are beginning to doubt his stance on slavery due to some anecdotal evidence. I don't frankly care that much about the topic to invest a bunch of time into researching something that I took in school 30 years ago.

The Myth of the Kindly General Lee - The Atlantic

 

[Push]

The Myth of the Kindly General Lee - The Atlantic

That is one link, yup. If you get off the internet and go into the archives of a University, you'll see many other exerpts from his journals where he speaks against the practice of slavery. Its really not worth a bunch of time, and its certainly not worth the taxpayer money being invested in tearing down and erecting monuments.

 

[GO-NAD!]

To act in their own self interest. You are aware of the difficulties facing the southern states in those days, especially with their federal government enacting rules, taxes and tariffs that favoured the northern states to the DETRIMENT of the southern states. So while slavery was a despicable act, and certainly some of the southern confederates were despicable human beings, its not quite as black and white as cancel culturists would have us believe.

And, what they considered to be in their own self-interest, was to maintain the institution of slavery. Any other excuses are mere window dressing.
The Civil War Was About Slavery. Confederate Leaders Were Totally Clear On This. | HuffPost Latest News

 

[Trell]

That is one link, yup. If you get off the internet and go into the archives of a University, you'll see many other exerpts from his journals where he speaks against the practice of slavery.

Perhaps you can provide some links from credible sources?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Name a few of these anti-slavery confederates?

And, how did they stand up to it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Removing their statues does not erase them from history.

Precisely. Lots of evil people are in history books.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... I'm more concerned with our recent history of genocide and racism...

Yep, this we can do something about now. Historical wrongs we can only read about and try to understand.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The Myth of the Kindly General Lee - The Atlantic

Most interesting
The legend of the Confederate leader’s heroism and decency is based in the fiction of a person who never existed.

 

[Push]

And, how did they stand up to it.

I was waiting for this very comment. In our society, in our day and age, we are taught the freedom of thought and expression, to not allow the judgements of others to colour our own beliefs. I myself have taught my own children and grandchildren to think for themselves, to not allow the beliefs, morals or prejudices of another to influence their actions, morals or beliefs.

200 years ago was a different world. Men were bound by honour, and while I simply do not have the time or the message length to describe what that meant 200 yrs ago, it simplistically meant that you put aside your personal feelings of right and wrong, and were honour bound to follow your leaders. For many of these warriors, evil ones and decent ones, to go against what honour dictated was a worse crime than anything else. This style of honour is a foreign concept to us now, and rightfully so (IMO), since evil people through the years have used it to corrupt decent people.

 

[Swerd]

The Civil War was absolutely about the future of slavery. Read the constitution of Mississippi, written after it succeeded from the USA. It clearly says they left the union to keep slavery. Slavery completely dominated the economies of all southern slave states.

The war was also about the southern states’ loss of controlling power over Congress. As immigration expanded the population of existing non-slave states, and led to the formation of new non-slave states, the southern slave states gradually lost their ability to control Congress. The Missouri Compromise of 1820 and the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 were only temporary attempts to limit their loss of power as the USA grew.

It should be no surprise that the extreme politics over the future of slavery divided and paralyzed the nation for decades before the Civil War. Between Andrew Jackson (1829-1837) and Abraham Lincoln (1861-1865), no president was re-elected to more than one term. During those 23 years, there were 8 single-term, undistinguished, and poorly remembered presidents.

Rather than loose power, the southern states thought they could simply quit. States’ Rights was a fiction unknown to the southern states in 1860, but invented by the 1890s, when those statues were put up.

Robert E. Lee, regardless of his own beliefs about slavery, and regardless of his sense of ‘honor’, betrayed his nation by joining an armed rebellion against it. As a career Army officer, there is no doubt that he understood that. Lee was the biggest traitor to his country in our history. The same is true for all other career Army officers who joined the south in its failed rebellion.