Compare and contrast: which integrated amplifier?

[Lauben]

I'm taking the "Don't be embarrassed to post here" very seriously. Thanks in advance for your patience!

I'm looking into setting up my first audio system. All I have is an entry-level turntable (Audio Technica LP120), a few records, and a modest CD collection. Everything else would need to be purchased. Ideally, I would be spending less than $1000.

I'd mostly like to be able to listen to records and CDs. Eventually, I would like to be able to have a setup that allows me to stream from my media library (in a different room, unfortunately), as well as from Spotify on occasion.

At the moment, I'm thinking about an integrated amplifier, and I'm trying to decide between the following five:

Cambridge Audio Topaz AM10
NAD C 316BEE
Onkyo A-9010
Onkyo TX-8160
Yamaha A-S301

I realize that the NAD would require purchasing a phono preamp (though presumably I could postpone that for a little while if I rely on the built-in preamp of the LP120). I also realize that the NAD and the Cambridge Audio would require eventually purchasing a separate DAC.

So, my questions are:

- Are the first two (or one of them) significantly better than the rest?
- Is that difference worth the extra $$ I'd need to spend for a DAC comparable to the built-in ones?

Any other thoughts on any of these (or on comparably priced amplifiers I may be ignoring) would also be welcome!

 

[lovinthehd]

Is it $1000 for the amplification or does that include speakers/sub? If you already have speakers/sub, what are they? Why not consider an avr? Built-in dac, bass management, more connection options, built in wifi/streaming capabilities....two of mine even have phono stages.

 

[Lauben]

Thanks for the quick reply! The $1000 includes speakers (which I do not have). Or that's the hope.

I'm open to considering an AV receiver, but since this is an audio-only setup, I figured it I'd get better audio quality dollar by dollar if I went with an audio-only setup. Then again, maybe that's not true?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the quick reply! The $1000 includes speakers (which I do not have). Or that's the hope.

I'm open to considering an AV receiver, but since this is an audio-only setup, I figured it I'd get better audio quality dollar by dollar if I went with an audio-only setup. Then again, maybe that's not true?

No prob. Decide on speakers and budget as much as possible for those first (I'm thinking 75%-80% of your budget), they're much more important than the electronics for sound quality; your room is the other big factor over electronics. What are the details of the space you'll be listening in, what playback levels are you aiming to achieve? What sort of music do you listen to?

My dedicated 2ch gear sits in a spare bedroom, once in a while I play with it for fun. My main setups (the other three) are all avr based, two of which I've used my turntable with. I'm into multich content, particularly movies, but listen to 2ch music quite a bit on each system.

Speakers in your price range will need support from a sub usually, depending on your tastes in music and bass (I like bass content in my music and the gear to support it). The dedicated 2ch gear often has no digital input capability and no bass management (the ability to apply crossover between speakers and sub) thus making necessary further buying of boxes.

AVRs also outsell 2ch gear by quite a bit and is often cost effective in that sense.

I'm not a member of the church of 2ch analog obviously, even though I still have it around. Some swear by it, I've done it and wasn't impressed enough to keep attending daily (and still have some nice 2ch gear; my 2ch gear has no bass management either).

 

[Lauben]

Interesting stuff. So many options to consider!

For speakers, I was thinking of one of these:

- Dali Zensor 1
- Whaferdale Diamond 220
- Polk Audio RTI A1

But I'm open to suggestions. I mostly listen to jazz and classical; the room is less than 800 sqft; not sure how to answer the question about playback levels, other than "not too loud"!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It's sorta funny. OP talks about Dollars and sqft, but then mentions brands which are near non-existent at all in the colonies I suspect he's somewhere in Europe. Possibly north europe.

I agree with hdlovin, spend most in speakers, least in electronics. All External DAC is the grossly overpriced for no improvements over any decent modern integ amp or receiver.
but if you do decide to go with integ-amp - I'd be partial to Yammi 301

For speakers. Have you ever heard about swedish XTZ brand? If not - check it out.
Dali or Whaferdale are fine brands as well.

I'd stay the f-away from Polk. Unless you're hardcore Polk fan and have budget for LS/i series - they are nice, but HUGELY expensive - you could get better sound for much less money.

 

[lovinthehd]

Interesting stuff. So many options to consider!

For speakers, I was thinking of one of these:

- Dali Zensor 1
- Whaferdale Diamond 220
- Polk Audio RTI A1

But I'm open to suggestions. I mostly listen to jazz and classical; the room is less than 800 sqft; not sure how to answer the question about playback levels, other than "not too loud"!

I'm also curious where you are. Why those speakers particularly, which did you like the best? Not too loud would be better expressed in dB for comparison over the internet. You don't care for the lower end of the frequency spectrum? These won't do much in your largish room for bass IMO. Or are you setting aside money for a sub and that's why these speakers are only 35-40% or so of your budget?

I'd be thinking ID (internet direct) rather than B&M (bricknmortar) brands myself. Check out Ascend Acoustics for example.

 

[KenM10759]

I'd want the best quality speakers I could get and leave amplification upgrade to be a future thing. In doing that, I'd scour Audiogon and US Audiomart for demo stock or pristine used speakers of a higher level. Of course I'm in the US and have easy access to those outlets.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm also curious where you are. Why those speakers particularly, which did you like the best? Not too loud would be better expressed in dB for comparison over the internet. You don't care for the lower end of the frequency spectrum? These won't do much in your largish room for bass IMO. Or are you setting aside money for a sub and that's why these speakers are only 35-40% or so of your budget?

I'd be thinking ID (internet direct) rather than B&M (bricknmortar) brands myself. Check out Ascend Acoustics for example.

If my educated guess is right, then shipping Ascends to Europe would be cost prohibitive...

 

[lovinthehd]

If my educated guess is right, then shipping Ascends to Europe would be cost prohibitive...

I was going with the dollar/sqft thing....

 

[Lauben]

I'm in the US. I guess it shows how clueless I am that it didn't occur to me that my list of speakers would suggest otherwise.

The only reason I picked those particular speakers was because (a) they're available on Amazon and thus easy for me to purchase, (b) I've read very good reviews of all of them (though my research so far hasn't been very systematic), and (c) they seemed to fit within my budget. (And in answer to lovinthehd: yes, I was assuming I'd also need a subwoofer, hence my decision to look at the <$400 range).

So, the wisdom here seems to be that speakers should get priority. Is "spend 75-80% of your budget on speakers" then a good rule of thumb?

 

[KenM10759]

There's a nice pair of Dynaudio Excite X14's on Audiogon right now for a great price.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Perhaps AA monitors (http://philharmonicaudio.com/aa.html) with a nice sub and avr could be option as well?

 

[herbu]

I'd mostly like to be able to listen to records and CDs.

Good advice above, but I think we need to slow down a bit.
When you say, "records and CDs", I hear "music". Does that mean stereo, (ie. 2 channels only)?

If your desire is just for stereo music, we can forget stuff like center and surround speakers. Focus will be on only a Left & Right speaker, and possibly a subwoofer.

If you also want to hook this up for TV & Movies, we're potentially talking about more speakers. And that means less $ available for each.

Also, do you want everything NOW, or are you willing to get less but higher quality now, and save for expansion later? If you're willing to expand later, we're looking at 2 good speakers now, and save for a subwoofer and possibly surrounds later.

Think about what you want, and let us know. People here can help.

 

[Lauben]

Good advice above, but I think we need to slow down a bit.
When you say, "records and CDs", I hear "music". Does that mean stereo, (ie. 2 channels only)?

If your desire is just for stereo music, we can forget stuff like center and surround speakers. Focus will be on only a Left & Right speaker, and possibly a subwoofer.

If you also want to hook this up for TV & Movies, we're potentially talking about more speakers. And that means less $ available for each.

Also, do you want everything NOW, or are you willing to get less but higher quality now, and save for expansion later? If you're willing to expand later, we're looking at 2 good speakers now, and save for a subwoofer and possibly surrounds later.

Think about what you want, and let us know. People here can help.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Herbu is right that I only need 2 channels, so there'd be two speakers and possibly a subwoofer. I only plan on using this for music (TV and movies would happen elsewhere).

I do not need everything now: I'm willing to wait and expand later.

I gather from people's reactions so far that none of the speakers I was thinking of is particularly well regarded. I also gather that with speakers one could spend tens of thousands of dollars. So I'd be curious to know what price range I should be looking at if I'm aiming to keep the setup somewhere in the $1K neighborhood.

 

[KenM10759]

Get this S-501 integrated amp, and these Dynaudio Emit M10 speakers. What you will get with that will be stunning, and I'm a KEF guy. The reviews on the Emit M10 have be stellar, and that's about as cheap as I've ever seen them.

http://www.whathifi.com/dynaudio/emit-m10/review

It adds up to a couple of $ over the $1000 when you add in shipping, but well worth it. The integrated amp has output for a powered sub for later, you may not need it for a lot of music.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW neither the S-501 or 301 has bass management, simply a pre-out with a "cutoff" of 100hz; speakers still get a full range signal; the power difference of 20W is not substantial. While nice integrated amps, they're on the expensive side compared to Yamaha's avrs with similar spec and lack several of the avr's features.

 

[KenM10759]

True, but the A-S501 does have a built-in MM phono amp, not sure other Yamaha AVR units in that price range have that. Clean sound and for most music bass management isn't a big thing.

 

[lovinthehd]

True, but the A-S501 does have a built-in MM phono amp, not sure other Yamaha AVR units in that price range have that. Clean sound and for most music bass management isn't a big thing.

What avr doesn't have "clean" sound compared to an integrated amp made with basically the same stuff? Overused term for amps and ac power, too. The music I like needs good bass reproduction, which most speakers cannot provide at sufficient levels and integrated amps with only a "cutoff" of 100hz for the sub without a similar filter for the speakers is lame. For the mere 20w additional power and a phono stage like that which he already has is not worth the $200 difference in price with the 301 IMO, rather spend it on speakers/subs for sure. Of course, YMMV

 

[KenM10759]

Most AVR's have to be made with cost cutting to all manner of components in order to pay the fees associated with all those stickers and logos on the outside of the box and keep pricing as low as they do. An integrated amp that doesn't have to pay for firmware, chips, ports and licenses associated with DTS, Atmos, HDMI, HDCP, Audyssey and so on. On an integrated amp the money (usually a higher amount) is spent on more robust toroidal transformers, circuits, wiring and other things related to improving sound quality. Less of them are sold (by orders of magnitude) so it's accepted by those who consider them that they cost "more per output watt."

When you refer to "integrated amps with only a "cutoff" of 100hz for the sub without a similar filter for the speakers is lame", are there examples of how this has tested to be true? I've heard Parasound Integrated and today the new Rotel RA-1592 and was very impressed that I noticed right away how nice they sound as compared to the Marantz SR5010 that was also demonstrated. It's not a HUGE difference, so one has to rationalize what value it is to oneself.