Center channel: performance or placement? Pick one.

[RedHotFuzz]

I'm working to purchase a new UST projector-based home theater system. Overhead projectors won't work in this space and I want a 120" screen size. The problem is a UST projector setup creates a serious dilemma with the center channel speaker. Basically I have two choices (three if you consider phantom center, but probably not viable as this will be for multiple viewers):

1: A full-performance center channel that will have to sit below the projector, probably on the floor itself. Which gives me problems with both the source location of the sound as well as reflection problems from the floor (hardwood).

2: A thin (slim) center channel that can mount on the wall below the screen without blocking the projector beam. This gives me much better source location and eliminates the floor reflection problems at the cost of reduced audio performance from the smaller and thinner drivers.

Both are bad, but which is better?

 

[lovinthehd]

An acoustically transparent screen and appropriate placement is not an option? AV furniture can't be moved to allow bigger center/better placement? The cubby hole placement is kinda meh but I do like the RC263 I picked up not long ago (especially the price of $150 new shipped ); I also use with JBL 590.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

An acoustically transparent screen and appropriate placement is not an option? AV furniture can't be moved to allow bigger center/better placement? The cubby hole placement is kinda meh but I do like the RC263 I picked up not long ago (especially the price of $150 new shipped ); I also use with JBL 590.

Unfortunately no. The ALR (Ambient Light Rejecting) screens ideal for UST projectors are not acoustically-transparent. That would be the perfect solution if only it were possible.

Adjusting the furniture design doesn't do much. I could raise the entire thing (including the screen) a couple of inches, but that's it. The front edge of the projector has to be around 30" away from the wall, so I don't want to put the speaker in front of it (closer to the viewer) as it would look ridiculous jutting out into the room 50" from the wall. There's really no way to put the center channel above the projector unless it's the ultra-thin variety.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, not the floor. How much space do you have above the screen? In my view above the screen is the best location for a center channel. Most heads are towards the top of the screen. So that get the heads and speakers closer together in most cases. In addition it gives the best room coverage.

Like this:-

The front of that speaker slopes towards the listening area, and the driver is coaxial and right above the screen.

If you have space above the screen and the ceiling, that is your best option.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

Well, not the floor. How much space do you have above the screen? In my view above the screen is the best location for a center channel. Most heads are towards the top of the screen. So that get the heads and speakers closer together in most cases. In addition it gives the best room coverage.

Like this:-

The front of that speaker slopes towards the listening area, and the driver is coaxial and right above the screen.

If you have space above the screen and the ceiling, that is your best option.

That is another option, but with a 120" screen the speaker won't be anywhere close to head-level. It would be 8+ feet off the floor. So putting the center channel on the floor actually puts it closer to ear-level than putting it above the screen.

I'll only have about 10" between the top of the screen and the ceiling inside the nook.

 

[EthicalEar]

I would be happiest with Martin Logan keeping the mains and center all with similar tone characteristics. I would Pick the 50XTI in same price range with 6.5" drivers. You are correct that the 4" drivers will not match the mains and leave you disappointed. Next goal would be to put it as high as possible below the screen and angle it up just a bit to point directly at the listener's ear level. Perhaps you can move some of that cabinet/stand equipment down and put the center on top. Speaker placement is more important than where the equipment is. In one of my set ups I have the A/V receiver on the floor. In my main listening area though I recently went with a longer 6 driver center with four 5.5" drivers and separate mid and treble (Prestige 55C) over my Paradigm CC590 V5 which had different sound characteristic and two 7" and separate mid and treble. I am thrilled now that I match my Prestige series 95f mains that have 8" drivers. To get the 5.5" Center to match seamlessly with my mains I used crossover of 60hz on center while keeping my Mains at 80hz, I also used my AV receiver to push the center treble up just 1 DB and it made these smaller drivers sound equal to my 95F's Best I could do but it works and sounds Awesome. I think it would be harder to get the 4" drivers to match your mains than it would for the 6.5" of the 50XTI.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

I would be happiest with Martin Logan keeping the mains and center all with similar tone characteristics. I would Pick the 50XTI in same price range with 6.5" drivers. You are correct that the 4" drivers will not match the mains and leave you disappointed. Next goal would be to put it as high as possible below the screen and angle it up just a bit to point directly at the listener's ear level. Perhaps you can move some of that cabinet/stand equipment down and put the center on top. Speaker placement is more important than where the equipment is.

I already own the JBL Studio 590s, so those will be my L/R. No matter what I get for the center it won't be a great match for the JBLs since JBL doesn't make a decent center channel in their Studio line for whatever inexplicable reason.

Unfortunately there is absolutely no way to put the center channel above the projector without blocking the beam unless the speaker is the thin, wall-mount variety. The nature of the UST projector is what causes the problems. It's either thin speaker above or beefy speaker below.

Another speaker possibility is the Golden Ear SuperSat 60c. Four 4.5" drivers + two "4" x 7" quadratic planar low frequency radiators". 2.75" deep. Frequency response is 50 Hz - 35 kHz compared to 100–25,000 Hz for the Martin Logans (1.89" deep).

It will be literally impossible to get an ideal setup. I can only choose the best of the undesirable options.

 

[shadyJ]

In your circumstances, I would skip the center speaker. No center is better than a mediocre center. Just have the front left and right speakers handle center channel duty, they are more than up to the task.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

In your circumstances, I would skip the center speaker. No center is better than a mediocre center. Just have the front left and right speakers handle center channel duty, they are more than up to the task.

Thanks. I will definitely test out the phantom center option once the new receiver I'm looking at (Onkyo TX-RZ50) ships.

 

[EthicalEar]

Perhaps the JBL 235C center with 6.5 drivers. I wouldn't want the small Golden Ear satellite speakers. Good luck whichever way you go.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

Perhaps the JBL 235C center with 6.5 drivers. I wouldn't want the small Golden Ear satellite speakers. Good luck whichever way you go.

Alas, discontinued and unavailable. Common consensus is the Infinity RC263 is sonically a great match for the Studio 590s, but it would have to sit on the floor.

 

[TLS Guy]

That is another option, but with a 120" screen the speaker won't be anywhere close to head-level. It would be 8+ feet off the floor. So putting the center channel on the floor actually puts it closer to ear-level than putting it above the screen.

I'll only have about 10" between the top of the screen and the ceiling inside the nook.

I referring to the height of the heads on the screen.

The axis of my coaxial driver is seven and half feet off the floor. However heads are generally six to six and a half feet off the floor. So that gets the speakers a foot and half above talking heads generally.

The speaker has excellent clarity and the vocals sound as it they are coming out of the actors and singers. Coverage over the whole theater is excellent and it blends absolutely seamlessly with the mains.

I really worked hard on that design, and I'm yet to hear a center anywhere near as good as that design.

Anyhow you should really consider a good center above the screen. That is in fact a very good place to put it. The room coverage is far better than below the screen.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

I referring to the height of the heads on the screen.

Ah, gotcha. What speaker are you using as your center?

 

[ryanosaur]

I need to put my finger on the scale:
Do not put a Center directly on the floor. This should not even be a consideration.

As suggested above, you would be better off putting it up high and aimed at the LP.

BTW, TLS designs and builds all his own Speakers!

 

[EthicalEar]

TLS guy's system is a dream. Yes. Would love to hear it!!! Regarding the Center, looks like his drivers are at least 6.5 or 8" Here is the thing. How many times have you paused the movie and went back a bit to hear what that English actor that can't speak English say? Or put on the subtitles to get it right? A voice has both low and high qualities. You need to hear the depth and Enunciation of the words which are mostly out of the Center. 4" drivers don't work. You will need something bigger to make it worth having a center. I have a 120" projection screen in my back porch with 5.2 surround system. Center I upgraded last year to the Klipsch RP-450C. Four 5.25 drives and their horn tweeter. It sounds pretty good. I don't recall having to re-play anything to hear what they said. It is placed right at the bottom of the screen and angled upward and sounds great.

 

[RedHotFuzz]

I have a 120" projection screen in my back porch with 5.2 surround system. Center I upgraded last year to the Klipsch RP-450C. Four 5.25 drives and their horn tweeter. It sounds pretty good. I don't recall having to re-play anything to hear what they said. It is placed right at the bottom of the screen and angled upward and sounds great.

Unfortunately this speaker + arrangement is impossible with an Ultra Short Throw projector because the speaker would obstruct the beam from the projector below (and in front) of it.

 

[EthicalEar]

I agree, that's a challenge, I didn't realize that UST meant short throw. Sorry. Time to get creative and either put a speaker on top of your projector using extra support to allow the weight out front. Such as 2 Brick's or nicely finished wood blocks on either side with the back of the speaker not blocking the lens, or put a smaller one on the wall as you had originally suggested. There are expensive speaker cabinets with a built in place for the Center such as Salamander, but too much $$ for me. https://www.salamanderdesigns.com/racks-and-stands/

 

[RedHotFuzz]

I agree, that's a challenge, I didn't realize that UST meant short throw. Sorry. Time to get creative and either put a speaker on top of your projector using extra support to allow the weight out front. Such as 2 Brick's or nicely finished wood blocks on either side with the back of the speaker not blocking the lens, or put a smaller one on the wall as you had originally suggested. There are expensive speaker cabinets with a built in place for the Center such as Salamander, but too much $$ for me. https://www.salamanderdesigns.com/racks-and-stands/

Unfortunately the lens on the projector is on the top front. Impossible to put the center channel on top of it.

 

[EthicalEar]

Here is a guy that did it with the same Kilpsh center speaker and Ultra short throw. check this one for another Idea.

 

[ryanosaur]

While still Horn Loaded, Klipsch Centers are limited by being horizontal MTM designs. It is a common flaw of all such horizontal MTMs to have poor horizontal dispersion due to the lobing that occurs between the two mid-range drivers. You would need to sit withing a 15-20º range of axis (left or right) in order to avoid uneven dispersion of anything below the XO point.
While I would ordinarily recommend a matching Center to the Mains (by brand and series), there are instances where a well matched Center can be had outside those parameters.
However, I don't think Martin Logan would be a good match as their AMT Tweeter is known to be a little finicky in it's own right.