CEC conflicts and confessed ignorance of settings

[blazintommyd]

Two Parts:

1st - I live in the USA. I have an ONKYO AV receiver which began to malfunction which I suspect is attributed to the new NVidia Shield remote I was forced to buy - the peculiar Triangulated one and suspect I ruined the settings with it.

After I set it up to turn on: the box, the TV and Receiver, the sound is now delayed for a considerable period of time; and then if I exit one streaming service and go to another - e.g., from Netflix to Prime - there's no sound.

Other peculiarities occur - i.a., there are audible clicking sounds like a digital switching sound in the receiver and the display changes. I was curious if anyone is experiencing similar problems?

2nd - I'm considering buying a new AV receiver, but want one that's capable of presenting acceptable music. I'm only using a 2.1 set-up, but would like a 2.2 (stereo subs - I already have two) - I tried using a center channel speaker and didn't like it, it was like listening to an old TV with random sounds going on along the sides

So I'm wondering about "closed platform "problems i.a., I'm reading reviews that people are having issues with NVidia Shield and Denon's. Personally I like Yamaha equipment and was thinking about the RX-A4A Aventage 7.2 but your August You Tube presentation raised doubts that the sub channels are separate and that I might have to buy the 6 just for that - which is precisely the sorts of absurdities in values I'd like to avoid

Incidentally, I despise the ONKYO style remotes, and I don't like the unit I have. I hate the interface, the menus and practically everything else. I'd like something simple like you plug this in this hole etc., and then turn it on and choose what device you'd like to use.

So RFD (request for discussion?)

 

[viorelc]

You mentioned stereo subs and sub channel separation. Why would this be useful, given that sub-100Hz frequencies cannot be localized? I understand mixing L and R signals to be used by the sub (and most subs have 2 inputs to do just that), but sources with separate sub output signal have them mixed as well.


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[blazintommyd]

Because I'm an ignorant dollop of genetic filth - thank you so much for reminding me of my abject ignorance - it's so remarkably kind for you to remark

 

[killdozzer]

Because I'm an ignorant dollop of genetic filth - thank you so much for reminding me of my abject ignorance - it's so remarkably kind for you to remark

He didn't really mean it like that. Why so touchy?

 

[lovinthehd]

Much recorded music sums the bass to mono anyways. You can always just use the high level/speaker connections on a sub and do stereo easily enough that way in any case.

The clicking sound in your Onkyo are relays, likely in connection with changing codecs.

No idea about problems with Nvidia and Denon; I have two Denons but no Nvidia.....and the Denons work fine.

 

[Trebdp83]

Hello and welcome to the forums. Could you kindly give some information about the TV? As for the clicking of the relays, go into the GUI to the Speaker Setup and make sure you have it set to 2.1 as it could be set to 5.1 or 7.1. This will stop the clicking and you may just want to set it to stereo mode for each input as your options are limited when set for 2.1 and even more still depending on the audio codec in play.

 

[blazintommyd]

View attachment 50564

He didn't really mean it like that. Why so touchy?

Is he still crying?

 

[lovinthehd]

Is he still crying?

I think you should just go with "Because I'm an ignorant dollop of genetic filth". Reminds me of what the late Arny K would describe someone like you perhaps.

 

[blazintommyd]

Hello and welcome to the forums. Could you kindly give some information about the TV? As for the clicking of the relays, go into the GUI to the Speaker Setup and make sure you have it set to 2.1 as it could be set to 5.1 or 7.1. This will stop the clicking and you may just want to set it to stereo mode for each input as your options are limited when set for 2.1 and even more still depending on the audio codec in play.
View attachment 50589
View attachment 50590

ANSWER: Circa 2013 Panasonic plasma with "arc" the AV unit is an ONKYO TX-NR626 - everything worked reasonably well for the last 8 years. The only change, is the new NVidia remote for my Shield box, the little flat jobber remote died. Although it's possible that the new NVidia remote and the CEC setting is not the cause and it's a coincidence, the only other conceivable possibility is that the Onkyo is dying. Hence my questions regarding Yamaha. BTW, I used to have a JVC AV unit with S video and a Toshiba TV the same thing happened to the JVC with the sound, clicking and everything - I always suspected it was a power surge. The local cable company narrative is that they ping their boxes and if there's no return the box won't work correctly so they have a person invade your house and disconnect the surge protector. If you connect it again certain channels don't work I only use it for football so those are the channels that won't work. Everyone I tell this too thinks I'm crazy, which is true by the fact that I continue to live in the USA.

 

[blazintommyd]

You mentioned stereo subs and sub channel separation. Why would this be useful, given that sub-100Hz frequencies cannot be localized? I understand mixing L and R signals to be used by the sub (and most subs have 2 inputs to do just that), but sources with separate sub output signal have them mixed as well.


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Of course they can be localized - for example - with two speakers toed in you can create or direct a stereo soundstage which duplicates the manner in which the recording was mixed - there are various low frequencies from different instruments - for example drums are usually in the center of the stage a keyboard off to one side a bass off to the other and maybe two guitars in between - the amps are set up in a manner that corresponds to those locations.

You might have other things like explosions that move across the soundstage, trucks motorcycles whatever rather than a a confused and confounded mono jungle - I suppose to an extent it might be subjective

Having been a musician I prefer large speakers and stereo just sounds better to me

 

[Trebdp83]

My apologies for referencing a 393 manual. Not sure where I came up with that one but it wouldn’t be the first time I mixed up a couple of different threads. So, is there a reason you prefer the Nvidia Shield connected directly to the TV? You mentioned ARC. You can eliminate some headaches by connecting it directly to the Onkyo and turning HDMI-CEC and ARC off. The TV can be just a monitor unless you need ARC for another reason.

 

[blazintommyd]

My Shield IS connected to the ONKYO the plasma screen IS only for Video - i.e., the image - the "arc" is the main output of the AVR - i.e., everything that is plugged into the AVR via HDMI goes out of the AVR into the plasma screen

 

[Trebdp83]

Got it. Assumed you were using ARC(Audio Return Channel) when it was mentioned. HDMI-CEC can work using ports other than those marked ARC on the receiver and TV but using the ports marked ARC is necessary for audio from TV to make its way back the receiver and requires HDMI-CEC to be on. You might try turning HDMI-CEC off in every device and see if it fixes the audio issues. When using HDMI-CEC and wanting to adjust a setting in the Onkyo, remember to press the RECEIVER button between the CUSTOM and TV buttons before doing so. There is a small chance you could use the Onkyo remote control for the Shield if using HDMI-CEC by pressing the input source button for the port to which it is connected and using the direction and enter buttons.

 

[viorelc]

Of course they can be localized - for example - with two speakers toed in you can create or direct a stereo soundstage which duplicates the manner in which the recording was mixed - there are various low frequencies from different instruments - for example drums are usually in the center of the stage a keyboard off to one side a bass off to the other and maybe two guitars in between - the amps are set up in a manner that corresponds to those locations.

You might have other things like explosions that move across the soundstage, trucks motorcycles whatever rather than a a confused and confounded mono jungle - I suppose to an extent it might be subjective

Having been a musician I prefer large speakers and stereo just sounds better to me

First off: no, I didn’t cry over your response. I was not judging your need for stereo subs, just tried to understand it as it seemed (from your post) like an impediment on using some amps/AVRs. Sorry if you took offense over it.

As you say, this may all be subjective, and depending on the source, we’re first subjected to the experience and taste of who mixes and renders the audio track we listen to. And it is often not how things were on the stage.

While not a musician, I have been playing guitar and do a bit of mixing, and my personal experience (from mixing) is that only higher level harmonics are localized. I have a mini studio and often sweep the frequencies range during mixing, to find and eliminate unwanted/overlapping frequencies, or make room for instruments in the mix. Bass guitar typically starts from about 60Hz with useful harmonics into 1kHz. Most people (and everyone is different) do not localize the lowest part (60 to 100Hz) only the higher level harmonics of the bass - and there is plenty of it to it’s useful range. With a crossover (set to 80/90Hz for a lot of current setups with AVRs), the higher level harmonics sit where the mixer sets it. While I get the stage setup, instruments may be “shifted” in space by the mixer.

The localization of explosions and car crashes is (in my opinion, and to my ears) limited to higher frequencies. Screeching metal, tires - there are plenty of high frequencies to move across the space.

I did not want to start a debate on the relevance of panning low frequencies, just shared my experience around this.


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[blazintommyd]

Much recorded music sums the bass to mono anyways. You can always just use the high level/speaker connections on a sub and do stereo easily enough that way in any case.

The clicking sound in your Onkyo are relays, likely in connection with changing codecs.

No idea about problems with Nvidia and Denon; I have two Denons but no Nvidia.....and the Denons work fine.

I can relate to your gist - I have a mono mixing board and used to use the pre-amp inputs and outputs to create stereo effects.

As for the AVr, "If I Were a Rich Man ..." I'd probably buy a "preamp processor", whereas a poor man, I'd prefer to have pre-amp outs for the subs. The problem with an integrated unit is that the pre-amp outs divert the signal from the channels controlling the front speakers.

Presently, I'm using the Zone 2 preamp outs to a Yamaha 301 that powers Elacs in my kitchen. One of the peculiar things is that the Zone 2 speakers work, so it's some sort of HDMI issue. I searched some old reviews on NewEgg and people were having these sorts of problems when they 1st bought theirs whereas with mine it's just happening now after 8 years

One of the awful things about the ONKYO is the inability to use HDMI connected devices unless you connect the RCA outputs to the corresponding ONKYO inputs. I was totally ignorant of this when I bought it and wanted to throw it out into the street when the ONKYO service person explained this to me.

Paradoxically, had it been the way I'd imagined - HDMI would be available for Zone 2, then I'd have the same problem in Zone 2 I'm having now in the main room.

Thanks for the inspiration tho.

 

[lovinthehd]

Even the pre-pros generally have the same feature set as flagship avrs do, just no internal amps. Avrs are fancy multich integrated amps, with the addition of a tuner/internet access, altho many 2ch integrateds don't provide much for subs in the way of bass management, or even connections (but often those connections are merely full range anyways) but some integrated amps have pre-out/main in where you can split the signal off to some subs, too and still use the integrated's amps. AVRs do generally have live pre-outs for all channels, altho some now provide the ability to turn off internal amps and go into a dedicated pre-amp mode.

HDMI and digital rights management do have issues with zones in avrs generally, not just Onkyo. Curious, is your Onkyo old enough to have had the hdmi/network board issue? The extended warranty program Onkyo put out is over now, tho. I have an older Onkyo that was subject to that, they fixed it and its been fine since.

Have you tried resets, both a simple soft reset by unplugging the avr (and/or nvidia shield) or a full microprocessor reset?

 

[blazintommyd]

CX-A5200 - back side - I don't know if this link will work or not. These have a actual right and left XLR pre amp outs.

On the Zones - I think the 3080 has HDMI in zone 2, some of the higher ONKYOs did too. Not having that feature is distressing to me. there's no co-ax nor RCA outputs on the Shield only USB - so I can't listen to you tube playlists in zone 2, nor anything else running thru the shield. I seldom use cable only for football and 1pm approaches !!

I did mention the Newegg reviews in another post I looked thru said reviews and came across that HDMI board issue. I wasn't aware of it. Does what i explain seem like your experience with that? Mine occurred possibly 8 years later? It must be some sort of HDMI problem tho - no I haven't done the reset thing with the ONKYO

It's also confusing to me how the power amps are set up inside the ONKYO, the powered Zone 2 stopped working some time ago but was always wonky to engage so I just did the pre-amp thing

The home theatre thing is disappointing to me. I always used a stereo receiver for TV. I just got used to it that way

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm familiar enough with the Yamaha pre-pro. XLR pre-outs are nice if you need them, but all my gear is generally close together so no advantage for me there nor any gear particularly needing xlr/trs connections, rcas work just fine. Might be nice for a mixing board, tho. I use an older bluray player in the one system I use zone 2 in, and it does have analog outs in addition to hdmi to help out when I want to play audio in zone 2 thru it.

Here's info on the old hdmi/network board issue https://www.avsforum.com/threads/onkyo-acknowledges-failed-units-and-extending-warrranties-until-2018.1652514/

My Onkyo failure experience was different, been a while now but seems it just failed on hdmi inputs altogether. I had an older Pioneer that also had hdmi issues, and eventually went up in a puff of blue smoke while still using some of the functioning analog/digital inputs aside from hdmi. Not sure what you mean about the Onkyo's internal amps, the zone 2 use of internal amps would depend on your setup....would need to know more about how you set things up in the avr.

I love the multich audio, that's why I have four setups using such (avrs in all of them). Grew up using 2ch as there was no choice, like music being mostly vinyl or FM radio . I have no desire for "stereo" subs, prefer to place my subs where they work best for room smoothing....use four in my main system...still fine stereo sound from L/R speakers even if I use just 2ch modes.....my older 2ch gear is not used much, have one setup in a spare bedroom to use some of it but lacking so many convenient features found in an avr for digital audio and bass management aside from of course not being able to handle multich audio.

 

[Trebdp83]

There may be a work around IF the plasma TV has analog audio outputs. If so, try connecting the the Nvidia Shield Pro directly to the TV. Set sound output to analog out if it doesn’t work by default. Connect the analog cables to the Onkyo’s TV/CD analog input. You may need to set audio output to stereo PCM in the Shield if the TV doesn’t like anything else.

If it works, this setup can buy you some time while you look for something else and bypasses the HDMI inputs on the Onkyo and the analog signal can be sent to Zone 2. If the TV does not have analog outputs but a digital coaxial or optical output, you can get an inexpensive converter. Good luck with it.

 

[blazintommyd]

I'm familiar enough with the Yamaha pre-pro. XLR pre-outs are nice if you need them, but all my gear is generally close together so no advantage for me there nor any gear particularly needing xlr/trs connections, rcas work just fine. Might be nice for a mixing board, tho. I use an older bluray player in the one system I use zone 2 in, and it does have analog outs in addition to hdmi to help out when I want to play audio in zone 2 thru it.

Here's info on the old hdmi/network board issue https://www.avsforum.com/threads/onkyo-acknowledges-failed-units-and-extending-warrranties-until-2018.1652514/

My Onkyo failure experience was different, been a while now but seems it just failed on hdmi inputs altogether. I had an older Pioneer that also had hdmi issues, and eventually went up in a puff of blue smoke while still using some of the functioning analog/digital inputs aside from hdmi. Not sure what you mean about the Onkyo's internal amps, the zone 2 use of internal amps would depend on your setup....would need to know more about how you set things up in the avr.

I love the multich audio, that's why I have four setups using such (avrs in all of them). Grew up using 2ch as there was no choice, like music being mostly vinyl or FM radio . I have no desire for "stereo" subs, prefer to place my subs where they work best for room smoothing....use four in my main system...still fine stereo sound from L/R speakers even if I use just 2ch modes.....my older 2ch gear is not used much, have one setup in a spare bedroom to use some of it but lacking so many convenient features found in an avr for digital audio and bass management aside from of course not being able to handle multich audio.

Aside from everything else - I started using the ONKYO remote again (which I hate) instead of using the new NVidia remote, which is nice and easy to use, and the audio delay using the ONKYO remote is noticeably less e.g., instead of (x) 5 mins and sometimes longer when switching to another service - the time in which the audio is heard is reduced to maybe 2 mins. and then sometimes when switching to another service the audio still functions but sometimes not. The audio for Zone 2 does not work immediately (I just noticed this earlier today) but the delay is nominal, less than a minute - so zone 2 can be heard before the main room

Intuitively, I changed the ARC cable but it made no noticeable difference.

It's like the new NVidia remote has the ONKYO confused. It's a much nicer and simpler remote, it's backlit and you just push a big round button in the middle and everything turns on - except the sound - maybe it's too modern for the circa 2013 ONKYO? - planned obsolescence - time to buy new stuff tommy the commie this is capitalist america spend Spend !!

The ONKYO remote, regardless of the batteries, sometimes works, and sometimes not.

O well