Alex2507
Audioholic Slumlord
So this is where the devil worshipers post.
"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans"
TheWarrior
Audioholic Ninja
The wire gauge comments in this thread are going all over the place: OP started at 16 awg. the 4S11 is 14 awg.I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "what i'm not seeing is"
I do Not believe in all the cable lore BS myself. I personally run 10g KnuKoncepts speaker wire. It's not exotic nor expensive. It doesn't magically change my sound in any way shape or form. It's just well made, priced right and is easy to work with. It just performs as it should for the power being pushed through it.
What I do believe is, for the extra few pennies it cost's. I would go for 10g over 16g wire. It's about having the least resistance possible without going crazy. So if im wrong about using 10g wire, I guess everyone should start on Gene to, seeing that is what he also uses or used to anyway.
However, as i tried to make it clear ( which maybe i didn't). If some guy say's he swapped from 16g wire to 11g wire and he and his wife heard a difference, im not going to argue with him telling him it's just a placebo effect. Whether may be true or not. With all the factors coming into play ( amplifier, wire resistance, speaker impedance rise and fall), im just not willing to say it's impossible to notice a difference.
When it comes to audio, all the science and numbers can say one thing, but what we seem to hear doesn't always agree with the science. Sort of like some people think some old tube amp sounds better than an class A/B amp with stellar tested out specs to verify lower distortion. But the guy still thinks his tubes sound better. Same goes with different DAC's, some people actually prefer a DAC that actually measures out horribly.
When it comes to the audio game, there is no one set of standards that suit everybody. Since we all hear things a little differently, i just believe regardless of what the science say's. A person should go with what they find to be more pleasing to their ears. If that includes some placebo effect or not, it's not going to affect me one way or the other.
Gene posted a table in the video and the article explaining that resistance is an issue over distance. Using the appropriate gauge for the distance is what really matters.
I pointed out "what you are not seeing" is just how thick that cable is, and how anyone, myself included, would be inclined to 'hear' a benefit by seeing a cable as thick as a garden hose.
This forum pretty rigidly tries to dissuade people from spending, even $20, on new cables when the existing are perfectly fine. It seemed the real issue was cable management which is why I use 4S11 for my speaker with active crossover, so I don't have four pairs of individual cables to organize.
But there in lies what may be the bigger talking point: understanding active bi-amping vs passive.
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G
Grandzoltar
Full Audioholic
Psychoacoustics is everything on how humans interpret sound waves entering their ear canal and vibrate our eardrums sending signals to our brain. Did we not take anything from the psychoacoustic article. Our hearing isn’t like a calibrated microphone. Everyone’s experience differs from person to person. Like Truthslayer said if you hear an improvement enjoy it. Don’t let anyone take it from you or *iss on your parade. No ones making outlandish claims about how there is a measured difference. Just that’s it’s more pleasing to you placebo or not. Ignorance is bliss. Resistance is futile!
H
highfigh
Seriously, I have no life.
In a ten foot run, it's inconsequential.
Truthslayer
Full Audioholic
Religion ? Not sure why you would even bring up religion in this discussion. Personally, im not going to knock anyone if they are religious or if they have no religion at all. Whatever spiritual view a person has is his or her own personal choice, if it makes them happy, causes no harm to others, then let people believe what they want, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. However, whatever one may or may not believe, im not willing to call it an impediment. If it helps someone get through this hectic world we live in today, then so be it.
So when ever possible I try to stay out of the spiritual vs scientific discussion all together. However being only human, im sure I have fallen down that rabbit hole discussion myself. Which I see im doing it now by even responding to your religion statement.
lovinthehd
Audioholic Jedi
Call it the religion of the placebo, which is key to even organized religion. I prefer facts/science. Then again subjective preference can be all over the place, many "audiophiles" certainly buy into the whole placebo thing. Good article here https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/mind-over-musicReligion ? Not sure why you would even bring up religion in this discussion. Personally, im not going to knock anyone if they are religious or if they have no religion at all. Whatever spiritual view a person has is his or her own personal choice, if it makes them happy, causes no harm to others, then let people believe what they want, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. However, whatever one may or may not believe, im not willing to call it an impediment. If it helps someone get through this hectic world we live in today, then so be it.
So when ever possible I try to stay out of the spiritual vs scientific discussion all together. However being only human, im sure I have fallen down that rabbit hole discussion myself. Which I see im doing it now by even responding to your religion statement.
Truthslayer
Full Audioholic
I agree that the placebo effect is all over the place. It's not just with us music lovers. It happens in every aspect of our lives. And sometimes the placebo effect can be a good thing, whether we like to admit it or not.
As far as facts/science goes, I do believe most people try to make their decisions with some sort of science or fact based evidence in their decissions.
However, it is easy to forget, when it comes to science or so called facts. These are parameters that are set by somebody to establish the so called golden rule.
Example, most people believe one is an odd number. When in actuality, there are no odd numbers. one can be divided by ten-tenths and so on. The examples can go on and on.
Sort of like some people think black is a color, when in actuality, black is the complete absence of light and color.
When it comes to audio, there is pretty much a standard set with a frequency limit a human can hear. But there will always be someone who can hear higher than that so called limit.
Same goes with distortion standards, with you, myself and others may or may not be able to hear distortion until it reaches a certain point. There will always be someone who can possibly hear distortion before it is so called measurable.
It's real easy for us to forget that we (our ears) are nothing like a microphone. So sometimes it seems almost inconsequential to use a microphone for comparison or testing. Since we know all of the other factors involved in what is being heard (room, etc). Bla, bla, bla
And one of the biggest things to remember is science changes their findings and understanding, almost on a daily basis. Wasn't that long ago when science told us it would be impossible to fly or go to space. Examples may be bad, but you get the drift.
The point i was trying to make in the beginning of this speaker wire topic was, while we know the science behind the cable size difference should not be audible. A lower gauge wire is going to have less resistance and once we factor in the amp, wire and speaker impedance fluctuations. How can we tell the OP that he and his wife did not hear a difference between the 16g and 11g wire swap. Unless we are there listening to his particular setup, then we shouldn't really make a judgement call and tell him it's all a placebo effect. And if it is a placebo effect but makes them believe it sounds better, well so be it. To much judgement happens in this hobby.
They way we hear should not be judged by some piece of equipment where someone (human) has set a so called set of standards. Standards and golden rules are always evolving and changing along the way.
Yea, i know im rambling on. I am just attempting to show, no matter the science or so called facts, they are not always so cut and dry. The science and facts of today may not be the science and facts of tommorow.
Ok, time for me to eat, my hypoglycemia may be kicking in and i may be making no sense at all right now.
lovinthehd
Audioholic Jedi
That's why you don't just go by your expectation bias and/or placebo effect.....which in his comparison method is likely. To just say trust a wonky test isn't what I would recommend at all....I agree that the placebo effect is all over the place. It's not just with us music lovers. It happens in every aspect of our lives. And sometimes the placebo effect can be a good thing, whether we like to admit it or not.
As far as facts/science goes, I do believe most people try to make their decisions with some sort of science or fact based evidence in their decissions.
However, it is easy to forget, when it comes to science or so called facts. These are parameters that are set by somebody to establish the so called golden rule.
Example, most people believe one is an odd number. When in actuality, there are no odd numbers. one can be divided by ten-tenths and so on. The examples can go on and on.
Sort of like some people think black is a color, when in actuality, black is the complete absence of light and color.
When it comes to audio, there is pretty much a standard set with a frequency limit a human can hear. But there will always be someone who can hear higher than that so called limit.
Same goes with distortion standards, with you, myself and others may or may not be able to hear distortion until it reaches a certain point. There will always be someone who can possibly hear distortion before it is so called measurable.
It's real easy for us to forget that we (our ears) are nothing like a microphone. So sometimes it seems almost inconsequential to use a microphone for comparison or testing. Since we know all of the other factors involved in what is being heard (room, etc). Bla, bla, bla
And one of the biggest things to remember is science changes their findings and understanding, almost on a daily basis. Wasn't that long ago when science told us it would be impossible to fly or go to space. Examples may be bad, but you get the drift.
The point i was trying to make in the beginning of this speaker wire topic was, while we know the science behind the cable size difference should not be audible. A lower gauge wire is going to have less resistance and once we factor in the amp, wire and speaker impedance fluctuations. How can we tell the OP that he and his wife did not hear a difference between the 16g and 11g wire swap. Unless we are there listening to his particular setup, then we shouldn't really make a judgement call and tell him it's all a placebo effect. And if it is a placebo effect but makes them believe it sounds better, well so be it. To much judgement happens in this hobby.
They way we hear should not be judged by some piece of equipment where someone (human) has set a so called set of standards. Standards and golden rules are always evolving and changing along the way.
Yea, i know im rambling on. I am just attempting to show, no matter the science or so called facts, they are not always so cut and dry. The science and facts of today may not be the science and facts of tommorow.
Ok, time for me to eat, my hypoglycemia may be kicking in and i may be making no sense at all right now.
Alex2507
Audioholic Slumlord
Hail Satan!
mtrycrafts
Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, it is a great place here.
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William Lemmerhirt
Audioholic Overlord
12ga FTW
B
Beave
Audioholic Chief
Today I learned that one isn't an odd number.
WTF?
WTF?
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