Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Steve81]

You may not. But since I had knowledge of what A/D what what it didn't matter...I take Arny's point but honestly don't feel it applied to me. So I take that with a grain of salt.

Assuming you hadn't heard significant differences between a $200 DAC and a $1000 DAC under sighted conditions, his statements wouldn't be applicable. Same would go for me as I never claimed to own a pair of the golden ears needed to discern the difference between a $200 DAC and a $1,000 model. Of course, if that's the case, and you're aware of the technical details explaining why you aren't likely to hear a difference, I'm not sure how informative a blind test would be, except in confirming what you already know.

 

[jinjuku]

Assuming you hadn't heard significant differences between a $200 DAC and a $1000 DAC under sighted conditions, his statements wouldn't be applicable. Same would go for me as I never claimed to own a pair of the golden ears needed to discern the difference between a $200 DAC and a $1,000 model. Of course, if that's the case, and you're aware of the technical details explaining why you aren't likely to hear a difference, I'm not sure how informative a blind test would be, except in confirming what you already know.

I didn't know anything going into this. No one did. Not make, model, pricing.

Just that there were indeed 3 different A/D converters being evaluated. It's entirely possible that there was indeed no difference to be heard.

 

[Steve81]

I didn't know anything going into this. No one did. Not make, model, pricing.

Just that there were indeed 3 different A/D converters being evaluated. It's entirely possible that there was indeed no difference to be heard.

Might be interesting to do a sighted comparison now, though you're biased towards stuff like $150 amps anyway

 

[Irvrobinson]

When we did the SBT of A/D converters it wasn't a waste of time. It was informative.

I'm glad you got some value out of it, because the results were entirely predictable. I would consider it a waste of my time.

 

[jinjuku]

Might be interesting to do a sighted comparison now, though you're biased towards stuff like $150 amps anyway

Well, I used to be biased toward $2000 amps. Then I picked up a $179 amp and came away quite shocked.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But there's the rub: what's accurate under one set of circumstances (FR into an 8 ohm resistor, driving 1kHz sine waves into said resistor) may not be accurate under another set of conditions (driving my speakers with real content at the volumes I desire). This isn't to imply that one needs megabuck amplification, but things are more complicated than a blanket statement.

True. One amp (less capable in some way) may have more distortions than another amp even when level matched in an otherwise same system and source.

I don't think anyone would argue that one amp could sound differently in this situation.

I've probably only compared high quality amps. That's why I have never heard any night-and-day differences.

 

[jinjuku]

I'm glad you got some value out of it, because the results were entirely predictable. I would consider it a waste of my time.

In what manner were you able to predict my results?

 

[Irvrobinson]

In what manner were you able to predict my results?

I assumed that post 766 implied you heard no differences among the three ADCs, complimenting the $200 one and all. I'm surprised at the fidelity I get from a $300 handheld Tascam recorder. If I made a mistake about the conclusion you guys reached, my apologies.

 

[jinjuku]

I assumed that post 766 implied you heard no differences among the three ADCs, complimenting the $200 one and all. I'm surprised at the fidelity get from a $300 handheld Tascam recorder. If I made a mistake about the conclusion you guys reached, my apologies.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not surprised by the fidelity you get from a $300 Tascam.

I have a Canon with external Mic input and an AT lapel mic that after post processing is phenomenal.

 

[Steve81]

It's entirely possible that there was indeed no difference to be heard.

Are there significant measurable differences among the A/D converters tested? That seems like a reasonable starting point. Amps are a little different in this respect given that the measurements aren't always indicative of real world performance (i.e. 1kHz sine waves into an 8 ohm resistor doesn't give us a full picture of how an amplifier responds to driving a complex load with real world content).

 

[Irvrobinson]

Are there significant measurable differences among the A/D converters tested?

Unlikely. Well, it depends on your definition of significant, but consider this, even a top of the line 24bit Maxim ADC ASIC is only about $15 each, even in small quantities. I doubt an entire stuffed board costs more than $75, and the specs are going to be in the category that it takes some expensive Audio Precision thing to even characterize it properly.

Now microphones, they're a different story altogether. The mics are the real reason I'm so surprised at the fidelity of the Tascam recorder.

 

[jinjuku]

Unlikely. Well, it depends on your definition of significant, but consider this, even a top of the line 24bit Maxim ADC ASIC is only about $15 each, even in small quantities. I doubt an entire stuffed board costs more than $75, and the specs are going to be in the category that it takes some expensive Audio Precision thing to even characterize it properly.

Now microphones, they're a different story altogether. The mics are the real reason I'm so surprised at the fidelity of the Tascam recorder.

Yep. This stuff is COMMODITY parts. And guess what else: The chip manufacturers have already worked out really good reference designs.

The reason for this? They want to sell as many pieces of silicon as possible. They love it when they have a fully discrete monaural mode. Yay! 2X as many parts sold.

 

[Steve81]

I guess I'm missing what you found informative from your SBT. That $75 worth of basic parts that more or less measure identically will sound the same whether it sells for $200, $500, or $1000?

 

[jinjuku]

I guess I'm missing what you found informative from your SBT. That $75 worth of basic parts that more or less measure identically will sound the same whether it sells for $200, $500, or $1000?

I'm not the sharpest person out there when it comes to context but I thought I explained the 'informative' part quite well.

1st off I didn't mention build costs(?). I have zero idea what the individual parts costs for each unit.

2nd the informative part was that A2D has most likely gotten as good as it's going to get. I.E. 15 years from now you will have the same A/D performance as you do now.

 

[Steve81]

2nd the informative part was that A2D has most likely gotten as good as it's going to get.

What I'm getting at is why would an SBT be needed to determine this? A look at detailed measurements of the units would give you a good idea of whether there could be audible differences or not. It's not like preference testing speakers or trying to predict what an amp will do with a complex load when all you have are measurements into an 8 ohm resistor. Assuming you've got a sufficient sample rate and bit depth, an A/D converter is either faithfully doing its job or its not.

 

[jinjuku]

What I'm getting at is why would an SBT be needed to determine this? A look at detailed measurements of the units would give you a good idea of whether there could be audible differences or not. It's not like preference testing speakers or trying to predict what an amp will do with a complex load when all you have are measurements into an 8 ohm resistor. Assuming you've got a sufficient sample rate and bit depth, an A/D converter is either faithfully doing its job or its not.

There is a contingent of people out there that believe not everything we hear is measurable.

 

[Irvrobinson]

There is a contingent of people out there that believe not everything we hear is measurable.

Such baloney, but sometimes the right measurements aren't the obvious ones.

 

[jinjuku]

Such baloney, but sometimes the right measurements aren't the obvious ones.

No argument from me. I'm fine with well controlled room, respected and transparent speakers (JBL monitors in my instance) and well recorded material.

I will say the $1K and $5K units had more functions and certainly more channels than the $200 A/D converter. But just on A/D alone there was really nothing that the $200 unit was doing wrong.

 

[Steve81]

There is a contingent of people out there that believe not everything we hear is measurable.

Surely, but I don't take you as someone who believes two identical streams of 1's and 0's will take on a markedly different sound quality as a result of the cost of the A/D converters that created them.

 

[Irvrobinson]

No argument from me. I'm fine with well controlled room, respected and transparent speakers (JBL monitors in my instance) and well recorded material.

I think you're misunderstanding me a little. I'm think that for electronics measurements are all you need to fully characterize them. The problem is identifying and performance all of the measurements that prove all artifacts are inaudible. Frequency response, THD, and SNR don't seem to be enough.