Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
You do realize I’ve written so many times that MAGA are not real conservatives but RINOs? But there are many MAGAs hiding in closets claiming to be anti-Trump but still carry his water, don’t you think?
The Cheney's (or anyone not voting Republican) would be accused of being RINO's. I don't believe MAGA are RINO's. They're just goofy cause all standards have been flushed down the toilet. Somewhere in that 2016-20 window I'd say there were many that loved what Trump represented in terms of behavior. Not the presidential characteristics of strength etc but his behavior. Now I believe it's where it should be. Most of them are closet voters because if it's a choice between Kamala's policy, they will vote Trump. But they don't like him as a human being anymore. And probably have to make up stuff like 'Well I never liked him to begin with.'
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The Cheney's (or anyone not voting Republican) would be accused of being RINO's. I don't believe MAGA are RINO's. They're just goofy cause all standards have been flushed down the toilet. Somewhere in that 2016-20 window I'd say there were many that loved what Trump represented in terms of behavior. Not the presidential characteristics of strength etc but his behavior. Now I believe it's where it should be. Most of them are closet voters because if it's a choice between Kamala's policy, they will vote Trump. But they don't like him as a human being anymore. And probably have to make up stuff like 'Well I never liked him to begin with.'
I understand the idea of MAGA if it means "I don't like the decline of the US in too many ways" and being specific about those ways, but not as a knee-jerk "I wanna be part of the group. If the problems are identified and possible solutions are offered, it could be constructive, but just carrying a banner, wearing a hat and going to speeches doesn't do that.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Let's go back to the original question, please.

Yesterday was a ridiculously active day in Milwaukee- the link shows part of it, but that's only in the city, not the surrounding areas. I live just North of Milwaukee and heard sirens all day & all night, whenever I was awake. The mall close to my house had a large group of teen-aged idiots causing problems, then they walked & ran into traffic after they were kicked out and fighting, wherever they were. No gunfire in this small suburb, but not far from it. One shooting had two victims, a woman who was transported to a hospital and a 32 year old man who had 15 wounds.

 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I said I wasn't going to participate in this thread, because it's a discussion that spins in circles, going nowhere. But, this just popped up in the news this morning:
Gun violence is on the rise in Canada. In parts of the Greater Toronto Area, it's a record-breaking year | CBC News

Gun violence experts say it's not necessarily surprising and the reason why is likely because of our neighbours to the south.

"The guns overwhelmingly are coming from the United States," said Jooyoung Lee, a professor of sociology at the University of Toronto.

"The U.S. is the global exporter of crime guns. It has crime guns flowing into Canada, into Mexico, abroad into Asia, Europe, you name it."

He said that's because of "porous gun laws there," making it easier for anyone to get their hands on firearms, and while Canada has no control over that, it could do more to secure its borders.

In a statement to CBC, the Canada Border Services Agency said it's intercepted 887 firearms as of Oct. 15 this year and that it works with police partners to stem the flow of guns into Canada.

"Smugglers are increasingly utilizing more sophisticated concealment methods in smuggling attempts," it said.

CBSA officials said that's why there are dedicated teams and resources to detect prohibited materials like firearms. That includes handheld devices, X-ray machines, and detector dogs.

Earlier this year, the agency also appointed an executive director for combatting firearms smuggling, who is supposed to help lead efforts against illegal firearms smuggling.

Bereziuk confirmed the majority of illegal firearms seized by Hamilton police are traced back to the States.

"That's something that the local police department has no control over and that's not something that we can enforce," he said.

It's precisely why the Canadian federal government's 2022 "freeze" on the sale, purchase and transfers of handguns has done little to combat the spike in crime here, said Lee.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Remember that all this gun violence is not because of the guns but people! :rolleyes:
Do the guns traffic themselves? People can't be separated from the problem of guns moving around and being used for killing people- they make the decisions, not the guns. Guns don't force anyone to smuggle or use them. Why can't you understand this?

What would change, in your opinion, if the guns in the possession of people who shouldn't have them or are prohibited from having them, were removed? If that had been done on December 31 of last year, more than 500 people would still be alive in Chicago.

 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
And if that “argument” doesn’t work there’s always: Gun control is bad/useless because criminals breaks laws and get guns illegally! Good grief.
Define 'gun control'. If you mean 'eliminating availability for possession by civilians', that won't happen. If you mean 'take them from people who shouldn't have them or are prohibited', I absolutely agree this should happen. That won't be a permanent solution, though- criminals will still buy, sell & steal guns after the confiscation and that will take a long time, result in long legal battles and waste billions of dollars in trying the cases.

You don't have the same kinds of people in your country and you should be happy about that. That comment has nothing to do with race, it's about behavior and lack of morals.

Do you actually read crime statistics for the US? They're disgusting.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Define 'gun control'. If you mean 'eliminating availability for possession by civilians', that won't happen.
Nice straw man.

You know very well from my earlier posts that that is not my position at all. Nor @GO-NAD! for that matter. The only one here that could have that view is @TLS Guy, as I recall.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Remember that all this gun violence is not because of the guns but people! :rolleyes:
What saddens me the most is that if those type of people didn't have access to guns they would choose something potentially worse. Bombings have gone down, but gun violence up. I'm very tired of it, but we don't care about people's mental health in the US. Or if we do, we sure aren't doing enough to stop these problems.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
What saddens me the most is that if those type of people didn't have access to guns they would choose something potentially worse. Bombings have gone down, but gun violence up. I'm very tired of it, but we don't care about people's mental health in the US. Or if we do, we sure aren't doing enough to stop these problems.
Stupid people do stupid things, like leaving guns unsecured.....

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
What saddens me the most is that if those type of people didn't have access to guns they would choose something potentially worse. Bombings have gone down, but gun violence up. I'm very tired of it, but we don't care about people's mental health in the US. Or if we do, we sure aren't doing enough to stop these problems.
Instead of essentially freely legally available guns and assault weapons what will they choose?

Give an example, please.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Instead of essentially freely legally available guns and assault weapons what will they choose?

Give an example, please.
As of late here in the Philly area there has been a dramatic rise in vehicular hit and run homicides.
 
T

trochetier

Audioholic
Spur of the moment comment Not thought through.

Second Amendment is ABSOLUTE there is no give to it at all - SCOTUS in it's various rulings made it so.
First Amendment? Wait until SCOTUS gets to it. Misinformation, disinformation, calling fire in a crowded theater will be protected speech.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
As of late here in the Philly area there has been a dramatic rise in vehicular hit and run homicides.
We’ve had those trucks driving into crowded areas killing dozens here in Europe but that is now much harder to do because of physical obstacles. If mass murder is what you were thinking off.

A single car hitting a single target is not more lethal than an assault rifle.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Spur of the moment comment Not thought through.

Second Amendment is ABSOLUTE there is no give to it at all - SCOTUS in it's various rulings made it so.
First Amendment? Wait until SCOTUS gets to it. Misinformation, disinformation, calling fire in a crowded theater will be protected speech.
The current SCOTUS decision on the 2nd Amendment can be reversed given a different makeup of the court.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Instead of essentially freely legally available guns and assault weapons what will they choose?

Give an example, please.
Bombing places was the go to before the assault rifle ban was lifted in the US. Crazy people will always find a way to kill innocent people, but giving them access to weapons that make it so much easier is just plain stupid. Red flag laws and mandatory waiting periods help, but aren't the solution.

It's like the argument that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Replace the word "guns" with "bombs" and it suddenly sounds as stupid as it is.

Or that "Europe has an issue with people stabbing people in crowds, should we ban knives too?" Yes, people are the main problem, but nobody wants to admit that we really need to start looking after one another more than we do.
 
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