Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[Trell]

highfigh, why do you waste time with 'Trell the Troll' ?

Forum members like you reminds of the following old quote:

John Stuart Mill ( British philosopher, economist, and liberal member of Parliament for Westminster from 1865 to 68 )

“Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives...

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it. Suppose any party, in addition to whatever share it may possess of the ability of the community, has nearly the whole of its stupidity, that party must, by the law of its constitution, be the stupidest party; and I do not see why honorable gentlemen should see that position as at all offensive to them, for it ensures their being always an extremely powerful party . . .

There is so much dense, solid force in sheer stupidity, that any body of able men with that force pressing behind them may ensure victory in many a struggle, and many a victory the Conservative party has gained through that power."

 

[Trell]

Really?

 

[highfigh]

Really?
View attachment 61070

Because there are many reasons to doubt what we were taught in History classes, I would like to see some of the info that was taught in other countries- the link shows that a German diplomat was assassinated while he was in Paris by a teenager who was Polish & Jewish and that Hitler ordered the launch of Kristallnacht. The site says they're independent.

The Nazis' Gun Ban Facilitated Kristallnact

Jewish-owned guns were registered and were easily confiscated in the weeks before the onslaught.

historynewsnetwork.org

Thanks

 

[Trell]

Because there are many reasons to doubt what we were taught in History classes, I would like to see some of the info that was taught in other countries- the link shows that a German diplomat was assassinated while he was in Paris by a teenager who was Polish & Jewish and that Hitler ordered the launch of Kristallnacht. The site says they're independent.

The Nazis' Gun Ban Facilitated Kristallnact

Jewish-owned guns were registered and were easily confiscated in the weeks before the onslaught.

historynewsnetwork.org

Thanks

You don't see why people are upset about that Michigan GOP tweet?

 

[highfigh]

You don't see why people are upset about that Michigan GOP tweet?

I do, but I asked about what your schools taught, just to show that our history classes are (too often) wrong.

Politicians suck.

 

[Trell]

I do, but I asked about what your schools taught, just to show that our history classes are (too often) wrong.

Politicians suck.

My point was the offensive part of that Michigan GOP tweet and not looking up current curriculum in EU.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Really?
View attachment 61070

Narrator: "No. No they didn't".

If every single Jew in Germany and occupied Europe had been armed to the teeth, they would not have stopped the Holocaust.

 

[highfigh]

My point was the offensive part of that Michigan GOP tweet and not looking up current curriculum in EU.

I asked what YOU were taught, not what they teach now.

 

[Trell]

I asked what YOU were taught, not what they teach now.

So I should provide links to you of what I was thought about this many decades ago?

And whatever has that to do with the offensive Michigan GOP tweet?

 

[Trell]

Jesus! You're like a fucking black hole. I asked a question and you have to make it into your usual shyte show. It was a simple fucking question!

I assumed that you disagrees with the premise in the ad, so I asked what you were TAUGHT, not thought.

Do you think that the Michigan GOP tweet I posted is offensive or not? A simple yes or no will suffice. No deflections, please.

 

[Trell]

@highfigh Your post that I replied to is deleted (for whatever reason) but it's still there in my reply to you, so what's your answer?

 

[highfigh]

@highfigh Your post that I replied to is deleted (for whatever reason) but it's still there in my reply to you, so what's your answer?

I deleted it because I decided that it was completely unnecessary after seeing it later.

I would like to return to the original question of finding ways to solve this problem and after the past week, it's obvious that something needs to happen in order for this to stop.

The Nashville shooter bought seven guns, but I haven't seen the time period between the first and last- NICS needs to flag people when they buy several guns in a short period, IMO. The parents have said they knew about mental health issues, but apparently, not about the guns- said they knew about one, but thought it had been sold. Great- apparently, they didn't give a crap about making sure she got the help she needed.

A text message was sent to a friend before the shooting started, the friend contacted the dad and he recommended calling Suicide Prevention Hotline but didn't seem to do anything else. The friend called and has said they didn't return a call until later that afternoon. The Police should have been called, so they could have done a wellness check due to the threats of suicide- they would have tried to de-escalate and take her somewhere for treatment. If the Police had been called, it's likely that six people would still be alive.

This event makes a good case for the red flag laws being used- people knew about the mental illness, but did nothing.

In yet another senseless shooting death, a 12 year old killed someone because the victim wouldn't sell a gun to the 12 year old.

https://www.fox6now.com/news/12-year-old-charged-milwaukee-mans-death-pizza-receipt-arrest

The system is broken. People are broken, too.

 

[Trell]

I deleted it because I decided that it was completely unnecessary after seeing it later.

I would like to return to the original question of finding ways to solve this problem and after the past week, it's obvious that something needs to happen in order for this to stop.

The Nashville shooter bought seven guns, but I haven't seen the time period between the first and last- NICS needs to flag people when they buy several guns in a short period, IMO. The parents have said they knew about mental health issues, but apparently, not about the guns- said they knew about one, but thought it had been sold. Great- apparently, they didn't give a crap about making sure she got the help she needed.

A text message was sent to a friend before the shooting started, the friend contacted the dad and he recommended calling Suicide Prevention Hotline but didn't seem to do anything else. The friend called and has said they didn't return a call until later that afternoon. The Police should have been called, so they could have done a wellness check due to the threats of suicide- they would have tried to de-escalate and take her somewhere for treatment. If the Police had been called, it's likely that six people would still be alive.

This event makes a good case for the red flag laws being used- people knew about the mental illness, but did nothing.

In yet another senseless shooting death, a 12 year old killed someone because the victim wouldn't sell a gun to the 12 year old.

https://www.fox6now.com/news/12-year-old-charged-milwaukee-mans-death-pizza-receipt-arrest

The system is broken. People are broken, too.

This is the same old blaming it on "mental health" while ignoring that other comparable countries does have mental health issues but not the regular mass murder using assault weapons. Banning books, like 1984, teaching history (good as bad) or sexuality is more important than preventing children regularly dying in mass murder.

So yeah, this is on you.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I deleted it because I decided that it was completely unnecessary after seeing it later.

I would like to return to the original question of finding ways to solve this problem and after the past week, it's obvious that something needs to happen in order for this to stop.

The Nashville shooter bought seven guns, but I haven't seen the time period between the first and last- NICS needs to flag people when they buy several guns in a short period, IMO. The parents have said they knew about mental health issues, but apparently, not about the guns- said they knew about one, but thought it had been sold. Great- apparently, they didn't give a crap about making sure she got the help she needed.

A text message was sent to a friend before the shooting started, the friend contacted the dad and he recommended calling Suicide Prevention Hotline but didn't seem to do anything else. The friend called and has said they didn't return a call until later that afternoon. The Police should have been called, so they could have done a wellness check due to the threats of suicide- they would have tried to de-escalate and take her somewhere for treatment. If the Police had been called, it's likely that six people would still be alive.

This event makes a good case for the red flag laws being used- people knew about the mental illness, but did nothing.

In yet another senseless shooting death, a 12 year old killed someone because the victim wouldn't sell a gun to the 12 year old.

https://www.fox6now.com/news/12-year-old-charged-milwaukee-mans-death-pizza-receipt-arrest

The system is broken. People are broken, too.

It may be a bit premature to crap on the parents. The shooter was a 28-year old adult, after all.

We can point at mental illness as the cause, but the reality is...It's the Guns. - by Brian Klaas (substack.com)

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, so how many vehicles are used to intentionally kill someone? The answer to that is "A few", but it only requires a decision to go from mode of transportation to weapon. Whether ramming a person, another vehicle, building or whatever and regardless of whether driven by its owner/borrower or stolen, a bad decision caused it to become a weapon.

Some gun dealers don't care who buys guns- they only care that they're getting money in the transaction.

Then, there's the high number of guns that are stolen annually- from the link-

"While every state experiences high levels of gun theft, the scope of the problem varies widely from state to state—as demonstrated in Table 1. For many states, these numbers are likely an undercount, as gun owners in most states are not required by law to report gun thefts and police agencies from state to state have inconsistent reporting practices."

State & federal government need to get a handle on this, damned soon.

Gun Theft in the United States: A State-by-State Analysis

Gun theft is rampant in states across the country, leaving all of our communities vulnerable to violent gun crime.

www.americanprogress.org

Just ban the damn things. No one is going to drive a vehicle though an upstairs class room.

You just can not screen out the nutters. That is medically impossible. Having said that I have a hunch medical treatment played a hand in this last one. This girl was transitioning, to male, and I have a horrible suspicion that this may have been a testosterone fueled rage.

Either way citizens of a civilized country do not need to carry guns of any type, or have them in their homes.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'd like to be able to say "This is an American problem, so good luck with that." However, just like Chicago gun laws are rendered moot by surrounding jurisdictions with lax gun laws, the same situation applies to Canada and the US. Granted, it isn't quite as easy to bring them to Canada as it is to Chicago, but it's still a serious problem.

The path of a gun (cbc.ca)

The U.S. is the largest source of illegal handguns in Canada, according to the Department of Justice Canada.

In Ontario alone, pistols from the United States made up 90 per cent of all crime-related handguns traced by police in 2022, with Texas as a leading source state, according to the Ontario Provincial Police.

Countries like the UK have an advantage when it comes to minimizing illegal entry of firearms - they're an island. I'm sure they'd have a similar problem as us if they also had a 9,000km border with the US.

 

[Trell]

You just can not screen out the nutters. That is medically impossible. Having said that I have a hunch medical treatment played a hand in this last one. This girl was transitioning, to male, and I have a horrible suspicion that this may have been a testosterone fueled rage.

This is a religious school, and looking from the footage at the clothes the girls are wearing it's a pretty nutty one. The mass murderer probably had a real hard time at that place going there as a child.

But this is America where everyone should have an assault rifle or two, so the problem is obviously that the children where not armed to defend themselves.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....

Either way citizens of a civilized country do not need to carry guns of any type, or have them in their homes.

They do as we have a population that worships guns and supports the industry. Heaven help them if one opposes this.
Not to mention the gutless lawmakers.

 

[highfigh]

It may be a bit premature to crap on the parents. The shooter was a 28-year old adult, after all.

We can point at mental illness as the cause, but the reality is...It's the Guns. - by Brian Klaas (substack.com)

Do parental responsibilities have a time limit? If the shooter has had long-term mental health issues, I would think not- I have known people whose kids were well into adulthood and were cared for by the family- I don't see why this would be different. At the very least, they should make sure the child's mental health issues are dealt with in a constructive way.

The system used for vetting gun buyers is far too easy to abuse and there aren't enough checks & balances.

I think "Because I want seven guns" has stopped being a good reason for buying them.

In his article, Klass includes-

"
False Claim 5: Gun control doesn’t work. Just look at Chicago!

How would you explain the much higher rate of knife homicides in the US vs UK? It has to be something other than access since every home in both places has knives, right?

This is one of the most persistent—and stupidest—claims that America’s pro-gun advocates point to. They take an American city with strict gun regulations, point to its high rate of gun violence, and then say “See, gun control doesn’t work! If it did, Chicago would be the safest city in the US!”

There are two glaring problems with this argument. The first is obvious: cities have larger populations, more crime, and more gangs than sparsely populated areas (this is true everywhere in the world). But the second flaw is more important: the “Chicago argument” compares ineffective patchwork gun control to real gun control."

He then goes on to say "South Chicago is roughly five miles from Indiana, where there are virtually no meaningful gun restrictions. It’s a fifteen minute drive. One Indiana gun shop has been directly linked to 850 firearms that were used to commit crimes in Chicago. People just hop in the car and buy a gun outside of the Chicago city limits.".

This completely ignores the private gun sales that are responsible for most shootings and if someone wants a gun, they don't need to make that drive- they can just buy it in the city. If they can't buy a gun legally in Illinois, crossing the state line won't make a difference because it's a national gun application, not local.

The 'We Need Gun Control' and 'We need to fix the people' camps need to find some common ground if this is ever going to be slowed- it's not just one or the other.

I saw that NC no longer requires private gun sellers to purchase a permit from the Sheriff's office, at the crippling cost of FIVE DOLLARS. 2022 gun homicides increased 49% over 2021- I don't see this going well.

What exactly does North Carolina’s repeal of pistol purchase permit laws mean?

RALEIGH, N.C. (WGHP) — North Carolina will no longer require anyone buying or selling a handgun to get a pistol purchase permit from their local sheriff’s office, eliminating the sole backgro…

myfox8.com

 

[highfigh]

They do as we have a population that worships guns and supports the industry. Heaven help them if one opposes this.
Not to mention the gutless lawmakers.

Idiot lawmakers, too. More worried about losing their seat in government than doing their GD jobs.