Can Audiophiles Embrace Science Over Religion For The Hobby To Have a Future?

B

bladerunner6

Audioholic Intern
CD inserts are larger than your phone- LP jackets often had information on the back, sometimes they had a cover that opened to reveal more info and some even had notes and lyrics on the sleeve covering the LP- what's your point? Do you want photos, to prove these, too?

Well, let me look for all of the studies done to validate my comment. Or, I could post this-

"a large number of persons or things" (from Mirrian-Webster).

"I went hiking with my friend Tim and at one point, he was bitten by a rattlesnake. If I had known the difference between 'antidote' and 'anecdote', he'd still be alive"- Ron White
CD inserts are larger than your phone- LP jackets often had information on the back, sometimes they had a cover that opened to reveal more info and some even had notes and lyrics on the sleeve covering the LP- what's your point? Do you want photos, to prove these, too?

Well, let me look for all of the studies done to validate my comment. Or, I could post this-

"a large number of persons or things" (from Mirrian-Webster).

"I went hiking with my friend Tim and at one point, he was bitten by a rattlesnake. If I had known the difference between 'antidote' and 'anecdote', he'd still be alive"- Ron White
I am asking what is the point of your comments? What is your point of saying “many people” find CD inserts too small.

Are you saying just because some people don’t like them I shouldn’t?


And what is the point of asking me about what sort of products I would like to make?

Please clarify.

Thanks.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I am asking what your poi

I am asking what is the point of your comments? What is your point of saying “many people” find CD inserts too small.

Are you saying just because some people don’t like them I shouldn’t?


And what is the point of asking me about what sort of products I would like to make?

Please clarify.

Thanks.
LP jackets are easier to read, for some people. The text is larger. How hard is it to understand?

I was just curious since you had posted that you use Spotify and used CDs because digital downloads are too expensive. Musicians and writers make almost nothing from streaming, so I thought I would ask that question to give you some context. Spotify, Pandora and others pay very little to people who write the music they make millions from and I wondered if you knew, or had thought about it. If you made something and people were required to pay for its use or for the physical item, you might understand. Making music has become "not worth the effort" for a lot of people because of streaming providers.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
I was just curious since you had posted that you use Spotify and used CDs because digital downloads are too expensive. Musicians and writers make almost nothing from streaming, so I thought I would ask that question to give you some context. Spotify, Pandora and others pay very little to people who write the music they make millions from and I wondered if you knew, or had thought about it. If you made something and people were required to pay for its use or for the physical item, you might understand. Making music has become "not worth the effort" for a lot of people because of streaming providers.
Well, if we try and get back to the Science vs Religion aspect of the article, MQA would fall under the streaming category. A lot of vague descriptive language to promote a newer technology with little science to backup the claims. At least there are some alternatives.

I can see the appeal of streaming to young people. They don't have the huge catalogue of physical media that some of us have but through streaming get access to an even bigger catalogue of music. What streaming companies did borders on the criminal, though, so I still refuse to support them with the pittance that they pay artists. Early streaming was like the Napster days, or what Crunchy Roll did with anime before they went legit. They streamed illegally with impunity and once they had a big enough user base, content creators were figuratively blackmailed into getting on board and making agreements. The genie is out of the bottle now but I can't help but wonder how record labels with their deep pockets and teams of lawyers failed to get control of the streaming market and negotiate a fair deal for artists. Perhaps at that price point the technology may never have taken off? Any monthly subscription has to remain relatively cheap to be widely adopted.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Well, if we try and get back to the Science vs Religion aspect of the article, MQA would fall under the streaming category. A lot of vague descriptive language to promote a newer technology with little science to backup the claims. At least there are some alternatives.

I can see the appeal of streaming to young people. They don't have the huge catalogue of physical media that some of us have but through streaming get access to an even bigger catalogue of music. What streaming companies did borders on the criminal, though, so I still refuse to support them with the pittance that they pay artists. Early streaming was like the Napster days, or what Crunchy Roll did with anime before they went legit. They streamed illegally with impunity and once they had a big enough user base, content creators were figuratively blackmailed into getting on board and making agreements. The genie is out of the bottle now but I can't help but wonder how record labels with their deep pockets and teams of lawyers failed to get control of the streaming market and negotiate a fair deal for artists. Perhaps at that price point the technology may never have taken off? Any monthly subscription has to remain relatively cheap to be widely adopted.
With that model, I expect music to suck far more in the future and a lot of new music sucks now but why care, if it's almost free, right? Quantity over quality.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Not paying artists fairly has been around since recording them came into practise. The streaming providers are adding to the pile of pimps tapping into the revenue stream. I wont pay them aholes a sweet dime for many reasons including the pimping out of the artists.

Audiophilia wont go away anytime soon when you have forums like Hoffman selling snake oil on mass to the public. Only ime will kill off audiophiles or reduce their numbers to extinction levels and then maybe, just maybe, the audio industry will rebound when they realize that very good audio can be had for much less than the price of selling off one's kidney.

Owning or enjoying vinyl doesnt make a person an audiophile like the twit who wrote the article inferred.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Not paying artists fairly has been around since recording them came into practise. The streaming providers are adding to the pile of pimps tapping into the revenue stream. I wont pay them aholes a sweet dime for many reasons including the pimping out of the artists.

Audiophilia wont go away anytime soon when you have forums like Hoffman selling snake oil on mass to the public. Only ime will kill off audiophiles or reduce their numbers to extinction levels and then maybe, just maybe, the audio industry will rebound when they realize that very good audio can be had for much less than the price of selling off one's kidney.

Owning or enjoying vinyl doesnt make a person an audiophile like the twit who wrote the article inferred.
While some were screwed out of their rightful royalties, and it was usually white business guys screwing Black musicians/writers, that wasn't universal- some were screwed by other musicians. This (streaming fees) is different- it also screws the people whose music had sold extremely well in the past, but the content providers found a way to pay almost nothing. I know someone who posted a Spotify check on Facebook- 5000 plays of one song got him a cool 46 cents. Peter Frampton received something like $3000 for 56 million plays of 'Baby I Love Your Way'. While Frampton has made many millions, others who used to sell their music in physical form are losing a major source of income, especially now that they can't play live (unless they stream it and sell CDs/DVDs via their websites or clicking a link). Obviously, not everyone cares (didn't want to use 'many' again, would I?) about physical media, some won't download it because they need to pay for the rights.

Just another example of why 'music' and 'business' exist in different worlds. The business side tends to make far more money than the music side.

I don't have a problem with someone trying to make a buck, honestly- I have a huge problem with people making a ton by BS-ing their way through life.

I think more people who consider something that's said to make a large improvement need to be more skeptical and to tell the sellers/manufacturers "Prove it" and to make returns easy if the person doesn't perceive that improvement.
 
B

bladerunner6

Audioholic Intern
LP jackets are easier to read, for some people. The text is larger. How hard is it to understand?

I was just curious since you had posted that you use Spotify and used CDs because digital downloads are too expensive. Musicians and writers make almost nothing from streaming, so I thought I would ask that question to give you some context. Spotify, Pandora and others pay very little to people who write the music they make millions from and I wondered if you knew, or had thought about it. If you made something and people were required to pay for its use or for the physical item, you might understand. Making music has become "not worth the effort" for a lot of people because of streaming providers.
My initial comment on the article was this:
>>>>
Comments have been made about CD’s.

If I may elaborate on my interest in them:

Absolutely equivalent not better sound is available in other ways but that is not why I like CD’s.

I like them for cover art and liner notes which have nothing to do with sound quality and I would not direct anyone to them for audio quality. For example, my best of Bob Seger has some nice photos, wonderful commentary on how and why the songs were written and the lyrics. I also like them because buying a CD, especially used ones are often more affordable then a digital download.

The author has absolutely right that we should not be directing people with potential interest in audio to CD’s.

I am just saying my interest in them comes from a rational, informed viewpoint that while in a minority is valid.”
>>>>
You wrote a confusing comment about “many people” finding CD inserts being small. Whatever- I never said they were smaller or bigger than LP notes just that I liked them.

Then you ask me about wanting to make money off my product and I ask why. You respond because I said I was a Spotify customer. The above quote doesn’t say that and it never would have because I am not a Spotify customer. Where on earth did you get that???

So yes, I find you confusing.
 
R

Ringo

Audiophyte
To steer back to the original discussion somewhat, I had an enlightening experience with non-traditional or "lifestyle"-type audio products. I went over to my new girlfriend's house for the first time over the weekend. She has an Amazon Echo Show in her kitchen and had some Frank Sinatra on. Now, I have profound privacy concerns about such products, don't have them in my house at all, but putting that aside and focusing on its music capabilities...I was getting ready to sneer at it to myself but then I realized...the damn thing doesn't sound half bad, really. It was filling the whole room with pleasant sound. It was not tinny. There was bass. Ole Blue Eyes's voice sounded good. The atmosphere was on point. The decent sized screen was telling you what was playing and scrolling the lyrics in time with the music. You can verbally tell it to play something. She was also viewing recipes on it while cooking.

Again, I'm setting aside the considerable privacy concerns, but just in terms of the functionality and sound of the product - I was impressed with that. It is extremely user friendly, with better than expected sound, that I have to grudgingly admit is perfectly adequate for casual listening. I'll take my floorstanders and sub all day, but the Echo wasn't bad at all.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
So you don't own a pc, tablet or smart phone then?
And don't forget the tumble dryer, the washing machines, and a host of other appliances that don't necessarily need any wireless connection in the first place.
 
R

Ringo

Audiophyte
So you don't own a pc, tablet or smart phone then?
For some reason, you're choosing to fixate on, and comment impertinently on, one little aside that had nothing to do with my main point, or the point of this thread. But okay, fine. Of course I own those things. You're being willfully obtuse. To what end, I don't care to guess.

Surely you're familiar with the concept of limiting one's exposure, risk management? Every additional device increases that exposure, increases that risk. These Alexas are listening *all the time*. One time when I did live with an Alexa, it randomly played back a conversation from a few days prior, which had nothing to do with its use, that it had evidently recorded without permission. It was seriously creepy. None of my phones, PCs, or tablets have EVER done that. Thus, I don't have Alexas in my house now.
 
J

Jerkface

Junior Audioholic
I believe that getting people in front of well-built audio systems is a huge part of the equation. Hifi shops got crushed by crappy big-box stores back in the 90s, and it got very, very difficult to audition great speakers and systems after that.

But literally, my wife had never been interested in hifi other than having a love for music generally. First time I fired up my Belles, even with a crappy Sony receiver, she was blown away, and when I moved up to the tube blocks, she was astounded at the improvement.

But you have to make it lifestyle-centric too. I have no TT, no SACD player, no esoteric sources that require care and feeding (not because I don't want them, mind you). We listen to HQ YouTube videos and marvel at the realism of the system.

Get music lovers in front of great gear, and you'll have your future lovers of great hifi.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
For some reason, you're choosing to fixate on, and comment impertinently on, one little aside that had nothing to do with my main point,
Yet you mention it twice in your post. So yes, it caught my attention. I find it curious that anyone would fixate on one device yet likely own multiple others that can do the same thing. However, I didn't want to jump to conclusions so I asked for clarification. I don't know how I'm being obtuse..?
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
I believe that getting people in front of well-built audio systems is a huge part of the equation. Hifi shops got crushed by crappy big-box stores back in the 90s, and it got very, very difficult to audition great speakers and systems after that.

But literally, my wife had never been interested in hifi other than having a love for music generally. First time I fired up my Belles, even with a crappy Sony receiver, she was blown away, and when I moved up to the tube blocks, she was astounded at the improvement.

But you have to make it lifestyle-centric too. I have no TT, no SACD player, no esoteric sources that require care and feeding (not because I don't want them, mind you). We listen to HQ YouTube videos and marvel at the realism of the system.

Get music lovers in front of great gear, and you'll have your future lovers of great hifi.
Not to derail the topic even further but what is HQ YouTube?
 
J

Jerkface

Junior Audioholic
Not to derail the topic even further but what is HQ YouTube?
Believe it or not, YT vids audio quality generally gets better the closer the higher rez the video is. A 240p vid's audio is almost unlistenable from the compression. A 1080p sounds much better.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
And don't forget the tumble dryer, the washing machines, and a host of other appliances that don't necessarily need any wireless connection in the first place.
And yet, they're getting WiFi. Ovens, refrigerators- it's becoming difficult to find people who can repair the mechanical/electrical problems and now, they need to make network settings?

I have heard that the manufacturers add WiFi so the appliance can report problems before complete failure.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
And yet, they're getting WiFi. Ovens, refrigerators- it's becoming difficult to find people who can repair the mechanical/electrical problems and now, they need to make network settings?

I have heard that the manufacturers add WiFi so the appliance can report problems before complete failure.
My tumble drier and washing machine from Miele has WiF, but I did have the opportunity to upgrade the firmware in them :D Fortunately they can be setup and operated without WiFi, otherwise it would have been a hard no to buy them.

They can report some things to an app, like detergent running out as my Miele washing machine has auto-dosage which is very convenient. Of course the washing machine reports that during washing as well.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
And yet, they're getting WiFi. Ovens, refrigerators- it's becoming difficult to find people who can repair the mechanical/electrical problems and now, they need to make network settings?

I have heard that the manufacturers add WiFi so the appliance can report problems before complete failure.
Oh no, I feel another rant coming on. :D Electronics are cheap to produce so it just adds to the profit margin. Manufacturers don't give a damn about serviceability. Market Place in Canada ran a piece on appliance reliability and more often than not repairs were difficult or sometimes impossible. Imagine spending $2,000 - $3,000 on an LG fridge and two years later being told that a replacement compressor is no longer available. They source out what is cheapest so parts change constantly and then they don't maintain any parts inventory. I'm all for the right to repair legislation that people have been advocating for.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Not sure the casual user necessarily hates big monkey coffin speakers or subwoofer cabinets but it likely will be difficult to spend money until they spend a little time experiencing it.

Not having many stores to demo stuff is part of the problem.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Oh no, I feel another rant coming on. :D Electronics are cheap to produce so it just adds to the profit margin. Manufacturers don't give a damn about serviceability. Market Place in Canada ran a piece on appliance reliability and more often than not repairs were difficult or sometimes impossible. Imagine spending $2,000 - $3,000 on an LG fridge and two years later being told that a replacement compressor is no longer available. They source out what is cheapest so parts change constantly and then they don't maintain any parts inventory. I'm all for the right to repair legislation that people have been advocating for.
Thus the uphill battle in making laws enforcing serviceability/longevity....we've been accustomed to disposability.
 

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