Building Floor Standing Speakers into a wall

J

juseasy

Audiophyte
Hello!
We are renovating our home and have long wanted to install floor standing speakers into our family room wall.
We are currently in the process of removing the old wall and then building out a new wall in front of it. We wanted to put our speakers between the joists of the old wall as far back as possible to minimize how far our we have to build the new wall.
We will use the speakers to watch movie. But the primary use of the speakers will be for loud music.

The speakers we bought are KEF HiFi Uni-Q Floorstanding Loudspeakers - Black (Q950B)

Will this have a noticeable impact on sound quality? Is this a good/bad idea?

Any help or knowledge to pass on is greatly appreciated!
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
The key to obtaining good Sound Quality is finding the right placement for your speakers. You just can't put them anywhere and expect the best Imaging. Placement, Room Dimensions, Room Surfaces are all critical in speaker performance.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
This is a bad idea. Floorstanding speakers are not meant to be built into walls or cubbies, as this will adversely affect sound quality. Did you buy them recently? If so, why not return them and buy some comparable in wall speakers?
 
DigitalDawn

DigitalDawn

Senior Audioholic
I agree, In-Wall speakers are specifically designed to be placed inside a wall cavity. Changes to the driver orientation, cabinet design and crossover are necessary when designing for in-wall placement.

Take a look at Triad Speakers. They go to great lengths to make sure that their in-wall, on-wall, in-room and even in-ceiling speakers in a series sound the same. They will even paint the speaker/grill to match any color you wish.

 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
@shadyJ will have more technical insight.

To me, my gut feeling says that speakers are speakers. Just because something is labeled “floor standing” does not mean you can’t put them inside a wall. The salient thing is fitting into the wall and as @mazersteven says, proper placement of those speakers.

I would even say that floor standing speakers might be even better than many “in-wall speakers” because the floor standing speakers have better rear enclosures/back boxes than many in-wall speakers.

Is putting floor standing speakers inside a wall better than putting them into the room? Probably not because you can change the placement easier if they are free standing, instead of being stuck in one position inside a wall.

Is putting floor standing speakers inside a wall better than other typical in-wall speakers that might not have the best rear enclosures? Probably yes if the placement is good.

Will the speakers be flushed with the new wall like how a typical in-wall speaker would be?
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Tower speakers, and standmounts should have crossovers optimized for Baffle Step Compensation. When put directly up against a wall or worse, flush with a wall, you change the radiation pattern of the sound coming from the drivers. Any soundwaves longer than the distance from center of driver to edge of baffle would then see a reinforcement from the new boundary, ie the speaker will no longer perform as designed and those reinforced frequencies will become much louder.
Likewise, by changing the placement of the port, you would further alter a speakers performance (blocking it by putting it against a wall, or pushing it into a cubby).

Standard common sense rules dictate that the speaker should be a minimum distance, equal to twice the diameter of the port, from the wall. Most people with a little space and understanding of the physics of acoustics will have speakers anywhere from 12-18" from the wall.

With proper external DSP or crafty equalizing, you could possibly recover some of the deleterious effects of improperly placed speakers, but to what end?

OP should reconsider his approach. On-wall or in-wall speakers would be the way to go if they insist on this path. Putting freestanding speakers in cubbies like they propose is not a beneficial solution if sound quality is important in any way.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Tower speakers, and standmounts should have crossovers optimized for Baffle Step Compensation. When put directly up against a wall or worse, flush with a wall, you change the radiation pattern of the sound coming from the drivers. Any soundwaves longer than the distance from center of driver to edge of baffle would then see a reinforcement from the new boundary, ie the speaker will no longer perform as designed and those reinforced frequencies will become much louder.
Likewise, by changing the placement of the port, you would further alter a speakers performance (blocking it by putting it against a wall, or pushing it into a cubby).

Standard common sense rules dictate that the speaker should be a minimum distance, equal to twice the diameter of the port, from the wall. Most people with a little space and understanding of the physics of acoustics will have speakers anywhere from 12-18" from the wall.

With proper external DSP or crafty equalizing, you could possibly recover some of the deleterious effects of improperly placed speakers, but to what end?

OP should reconsider his approach. On-wall or in-wall speakers would be the way to go if they insist on this path. Putting freestanding speakers in cubbies like they propose is not a beneficial solution if sound quality is important in any way.
Read my mind!
BSC is very important. As is in room placement, and the second “enclosure” that could definitely make bass and mid bass “honky” and bloated and one note-ish.
Overall, I believe this is a bad idea. But the second main requirement was for playing loud music”. What we don’t know if that’s for party time, or critical orchestral or jazz listening, or bullet for my valentine concert levels.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
@shadyJ will have more technical insight.

To me, my gut feeling says that speakers are speakers. Just because something is labeled “floor standing” does not mean you can’t put them inside a wall. The salient thing is fitting into the wall and as @mazersteven says, proper placement of those speakers.

I would even say that floor standing speakers might be even better than many “in-wall speakers” because the floor standing speakers have better rear enclosures/back boxes than many in-wall speakers.

Is putting floor standing speakers inside a wall better than putting them into the room? Probably not because you can change the placement easier if they are free standing, instead of being stuck in one position inside a wall.

Is putting floor standing speakers inside a wall better than other typical in-wall speakers that might not have the best rear enclosures? Probably yes if the placement is good.

Will the speakers be flushed with the new wall like how a typical in-wall speaker would be?
What about the baffle tho..? Wouldn't the wall become the baffle and basically screw everything up?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Tower speakers, and standmounts should have crossovers optimized for Baffle Step Compensation. When put directly up against a wall or worse, flush with a wall, you change the radiation pattern of the sound coming from the drivers. Any soundwaves longer than the distance from center of driver to edge of baffle would then see a reinforcement from the new boundary, ie the speaker will no longer perform as designed and those reinforced frequencies will become much louder.
Likewise, by changing the placement of the port, you would further alter a speakers performance (blocking it by putting it against a wall, or pushing it into a cubby).

Standard common sense rules dictate that the speaker should be a minimum distance, equal to twice the diameter of the port, from the wall. Most people with a little space and understanding of the physics of acoustics will have speakers anywhere from 12-18" from the wall.

With proper external DSP or crafty equalizing, you could possibly recover some of the deleterious effects of improperly placed speakers, but to what end?

OP should reconsider his approach. On-wall or in-wall speakers would be the way to go if they insist on this path. Putting freestanding speakers in cubbies like they propose is not a beneficial solution if sound quality is important in any way.
Read my mind!
BSC is very important. As is in room placement, and the second “enclosure” that could definitely make bass and mid bass “honky” and bloated and one note-ish.
Overall, I believe this is a bad idea. But the second main requirement was for playing loud music”. What we don’t know if that’s for party time, or critical orchestral or jazz listening, or bullet for my valentine concert levels.
You guys covered it, lol. Yes, BSC is exactly what I was thinking of. In wall speakers are designed with that in mind.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Those speakers have no Rear Port
A rear port too close to a wall does matter, but more than that is involved.

All speakers are subject to the baffle-step response. The narrower the cabinet, the more we hear it. Speakers designed to be free-standing on the floor have baffle-step compensation (BSC) built into their crossover network. It's a type of equalization. If they are placed close to a wall, or flush with a wall as the OP proposes, they will sound too bass heavy. If BSC is left out, and if the speakers are placed away from walls, they will have a pronounced elevated step in the mid-range, causing a 'shouty' or 'nasal' sound, depending on the music. This happens with any speaker no matter if there is a front port, rear port, or no port at all.

Like others have said above, if the OP wants speakers in the wall as opposed to out on the floor, he should get in-wall speakers. Properly designed in-wall speakers should have a balanced sound when they are placed flush with the wall.

I'm glad to read posts from @ryanosaur and @William Lemmerhirt that recognize this.
 
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J

juseasy

Audiophyte
Wow - I didn't expect so much info so fast!! Thanks everyone.

I wanted speakers for music - I play my music very loud, almost daily. My wife wanted the minimal look with speakers in the wall that "don't get in the way". The salesman as Visions (our local audio video store) recommended these speakers as they have excellent sound and they are small enough to push in between the studs of the wall. I'll be returning these speakers for sure!!

Can anyone recommend wall speakers that would give big sound?
Growing up we had Cerwin Vega D-9s - that's the kind of sound I like!
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
I'll be returning these speakers for sure!!

Can anyone recommend wall speakers that would give big sound?
Take it easy big guy!!!

Before you return those know this. To do a proper In-Wall system takes Cash. Lot's of Cash. Again it's not as easy as just slapping a couple of In-Wall speakers in the wall, I mean you could but your sound quality will suffer.

You do have nice speakers. I would try to figure out a compromise where you can keep your current speakers yet not put them in the wall. I think you would be happier in the long run JMO
 
J

juseasy

Audiophyte
Take it easy big guy!!!

Before you return those know this. To do a proper In-Wall system takes Cash. Lot's of Cash. Again it's not as easy as just slapping a couple of In-Wall speakers in the wall, I mean you could but your sound quality will suffer.

You do have nice speakers. I would try to figure out a compromise where you can keep your current speakers yet not put them in the wall. I think you would be happier in the long run JMO
I like the speakers - My wife won't compromise on the in wall. It's all about the look for her - I was allowed loud speakers, as long as we put them in the wall
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
How much are guys considering to spend? KEF makes some nice thx certified ones. Klipsch does too.
I had/have a pair of D-9’s in my studio. Bought them around 1990. They need new foams but man they were fun when I was a kid.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Take it easy big guy!!!

Before you return those know this. To do a proper In-Wall system takes Cash. Lot's of Cash. Again it's not as easy as just slapping a couple of In-Wall speakers in the wall, I mean you could but your sound quality will suffer.

You do have nice speakers. I would try to figure out a compromise where you can keep your current speakers yet not put them in the wall. I think you would be happier in the long run JMO
AudioDefTechGuy has a point. The real problem is that there really are no exceptional in wall speakers. Most in walls are simply dreadful.

The issue is that in a free standing speaker, there is a frequency related to the width of the front baffle where are speakers transition from being a forward directed mono-pole to and omni directional radiator. So below that frequency if you don't add boost is sounds lacking in bass. However if you prevent it transitioning then it remains a mono-pole at all frequencies. Now if you don not put the speaker flush with the wall then it ameliorates this effect to a degree.

However, I have found the bigger issue is reinforcement reflections from the wall which results in significant reinforcement at certain frequencies. This effect was pronounced in the in wall system I designed and built for out lower great room. Although there was no baffle step compensation, and the F3 of the speakers free, was 83 Hz, in wall it was actually an octave lower at 40 Hz. These were sealed speakers and not ported so rolled off at 12 db per octave and not 24 db per octave like a ported speaker. However the upshot of this was that these speakers had to be crossed to sub at 40 Hz and NOT 80 Hz. This actually surprised me and it took me a while to figure out what was going on.

I did this as I prefer to design my own speakers, but also because I don't consider there is an in wall system comparable to what I designed and built. It is a very potent the system with very high power handling capacity and a unique and potent in wall transmission line sub.

So it all depends on how you go about this. But for my needs I did not think there was anything remotely adequate for what I wanted. So using the speakers you bought, and not placing them flush with the wall might be OK, but might not. Be prepared though that they need to cross at 40 Hz because of large baffle reinforcement. Now that could cause a problem as the speaker may not tolerate high power that low. My system used six, six inch drivers with large high powered motor systems. That makes it a potent performer. It actually sounds very good and is used mainly for TV and Internet streaming and some music. I can hear my wife blasting it now.

I have all the details on file, and all the panels are still in the C & C machines computer. So since this is new construction you could do it if you want. If you you really want a flush mounted potent in wall system, then this one is it.

Details of what I call this Ultra WAF System can be found from this link.

 
J

juseasy

Audiophyte
How much are guys considering to spend? KEF makes some nice thx certified ones. Klipsch does too.
I had/have a pair of D-9’s in my studio. Bought them around 1990. They need new foams but man they were fun when I was a kid.
I was looking at the KEF thx speakers - it's a long shot, but I may try going for these!
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Hopefully you could negotiate a subwoofer somewhere in the room. (Not in the wall)
 
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