Bryston Model T Floorstanding Speakers

[3db]

You are right and I realized that too base on posts right here at AH, but I took into consideration the hypes elsewhere, such as several "professional" reviews. Likewise, Stereophile also said enough to elevate expectation of the lower priced Pioneer/AJ speakers. I think people expect a lot more from a 6,500 to 8,000 dollar speakers though. May be the Bryston does sound better than what some of us may think, but I find it hard to believe they can sound better than KEF 207/1 and the Salon2. More likely they won't even come close, aside from perhaps the low bass.

It would have been a little more (just a little) believable if they had choosen to use the Focals' Beryllium tweeter instead of Axiom's, though a lot of us probably couldn't hear much above 12K anyway.

Its hard to determine without an audition. Its all merely educated guesses and speculation. I've seen educated guesses and speculation go down the porcelain bowl before when all the experts chimed in on the performance of Paradigms's monster sub. And one cannot forget the whole subjective aspect that gets tossed in. I'm not leaning one way or another towards these speakers. They are far out of my price league. I'm getting excited about getting a new sub for my birthday.

 

[exlabdriver]

3db: +1

I just received my second diminutive EP400 sub to operate with my audio only, tube amp, sat bookshelf system that I will set up this weekend. I hate dealing with baseboards so I have to ease into the right frame of mind.

I didn't need to wait for my birthday and I got it on sale for a good savings! I acquired it before my wife retires next year and we lose her salary, ha! I've been renewing all of my AV systems over the past year to provide me with stellar entertainment on both levels of my home into my senior years...

TAM

 

[gene]

Bryston Tweeter

Guys;

There was some debate here on what tweeter the Bryston speakers use.

Just a quick update. I confirmed with James Tanner that the Bryston speakers are in fact using the identical 1" titanium dome tweeter found in Axiom product starting with their M2V3 bookshelf speakers. The only difference is the name on the faceplate.

Hope this helps clarify any unanswered questions and look forward to hearing more listening impressions as people get the opportunity to demo these speakers at local Bryston dealers. I will be looking for them at CEDIA if they do a demo room and will report our findings here as well.

Happy listening!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Guys;

There was some debate here on what tweeter the Bryston speakers use.

Just a quick update. I confirmed with James Tanner that the Bryston speakers are in fact using the identical 1" titanium dome tweeter found in Axiom product starting with their M2V3 bookshelf speakers. The only difference is the name on the faceplate.

Hope this helps clarify any unanswered questions and look forward to hearing more listening impressions as people get the opportunity to demo these speakers at local Bryston dealers. I will be looking for them at CEDIA if they do a demo room and will report our findings here as well.

Happy listening!

I'm sure I must have missed this, but besides the identical Axiom tweeter, do they have identical Axiom midrange and woofers ?

 

[gene]

I'm sure I must have missed this, but besides the identical Axiom tweeter, do they have identical Axiom midrange and woofers ?

no the mids and woofers are made of a different cone material and have cast baskets. Also the bass drivers are 8" instead of 6.5" and there are 3 of them. The crossovers are also significantly upgraded.

 

[Stedanko]

With a couple more weeks of listening under my belt these speakers continue to amaze. Hope some folks have had a chance to hear them by now.

 

[gene]

Dayton vs Axiom Driver

Thought I'd make a correction in this thread as it was mentioned that the Axiom and Dayton drivers were one in the same.

I was able to get a sample of the Dayton driver and compare it to my Axiom V2 driver found in my M3v2s I have on hand.

These drivers are NOT identical.

The Dayton version is 8 ohms while the Axiom version is 6 ohms. The Dayton version is unshielded, though they offer a shielded version. The Axiom driver is shielded.

It appears that the tooling/faceplate, dome shape, materials are very similar but the VC's are different. It is my opinion that the vendor building the Axiom driver in China offered a generic version of this tweeter to Dayton for sale, though I cannot confirm for sure. This is however very common in the industry and we have an article coming out about it next week.

I pulled some impedance and frequency response measurements (nearfield as well as at 9in distance) of both drivers to show the differences.



I hope this clears up the rumor mill at least on this issue.

 

[monkish54]

Thought I'd make a correction in this thread as it was mentioned that the Axiom and Dayton drivers were one in the same.

I was able to get a sample of the Dayton driver and compare it to my Axiom V2 driver found in my M3v2s I have on hand.

These drivers are NOT identical.

The Dayton version is 8 ohms while the Axiom version is 6 ohms. The Dayton version is unshielded, though they offer a shielded version. The Axiom driver is shielded.

It appears that the tooling/faceplate, dome shape, materials are very similar but the VC's are different. It is my opinion that the vendor building the Axiom driver in China offered a generic version of this tweeter to Dayton for sale, though I cannot confirm for sure. This is however very common in the industry and we have an article coming out about it next week.

I pulled some impedance and frequency response measurements (nearfield as well as at 9in distance) of both drivers to show the differences.

View attachment 12304 View attachment 12305 View attachment 12306

I hope this clears up the rumor mill at least on this issue.

Certainly not identical, but pretty similar in the range used. The Dayton looks better from 2-5k and the Axiom looks better from 10-20k. What was the test baffle, Gene?

Do the drivers look to have significant differences in power handling and xmax (underhung vs overhung, coil length, etc.)?

If the Axiom looks to have better power handling, I sincerely apologize to Axiom for claiming they use a wimpy tweeter.

What's going on with the Axiom impedance?

 

[gene]

Certainly not identical, but pretty similar in the range used. The Dayton looks better from 2-5k and the Axiom looks better from 10-20k. What was the test baffle, Gene?

Do the drivers look to have significant differences in power handling and xmax (underhung vs overhung, coil length, etc.)?

If they do, I sincerely apologize to Axiom for claiming they use a wimpy tweeter.

What's going on with the Axiom impedance?

I measured both tweeters on the ground. I didn't bother to test power since my initial purpose was to validate the claim if the tweeters were identical. Clearly they have different voice coils. Down the road I can always build a baffle and do more tests but I think this is sufficient to show they are not the same off the shelf drivers though both have nearly identical cosmetics and somewhat similar performance characteristics.

 

[gene]

Twweters measured in am M3v2 on-wall

I measured the stock Axiom tweeter and Dayton tweeter when integrated into an M3V2 On-wall speaker. Both measurements were done with the same mic position 12" away slightly below the tweeter axis.

Again as you can see, they produce a different response.

 

[gene]

Axiom tweeter impedance

What's going on with the Axiom impedance?

Not sure so i pulled the tweeter out of my other M3v2 on-wall and measured to compare. There does seem to be some differences in resonance which I can only guess has to do with the amount of ferro-fluid used in both samples?

I didn't see this variation when I measured the two Dayton tweeters but my Axioms are now 6+ years old and have been played for many hours.



OK gotta put the speakers back in the wall of our guest room as we have a visitor right now and my wife doesn't appreciate the mess

 

[monkish54]

Not sure so i pulled the tweeter out of my other M3v2 on-wall and measured to compare. There does seem to be some differences in resonance which I can only guess has to do with the amount of ferro-fluid used in both samples?

I didn't see this variation when I measured the two Dayton tweeters but my Axioms are now 6+ years old and have been played for many hours.

View attachment 12309

OK gotta put the speakers back in the wall of our guest room as we have a visitor right now and my wife doesn't appreciate the mess

I'm not sure why it resembles a ported box? Usually tweeters resemble a closed box...

 

[Socketman]

Not sure so i pulled the tweeter out of my other M3v2 on-wall and measured to compare. There does seem to be some differences in resonance which I can only guess has to do with the amount of ferro-fluid used in both samples?

I didn't see this variation when I measured the two Dayton tweeters but my Axioms are now 6+ years old and have been played for many hours.

View attachment 12309

OK gotta put the speakers back in the wall of our guest room as we have a visitor right now and my wife doesn't appreciate the mess

For what its worth, I seem to recall that Ian stated that he owned a factory in china , which would make it highly unlikely that the Dayton driver is any relation to the Axiom. Also it would seem to me the only relevant part of the graph is from 2k up since that is the general area where axiom cross's the tweeter , 2.7k on the 2 way speakers.

 

[Socketman]

M80V3 tweeter

 

[gene]

For what its worth, I seem to recall that Ian stated that he owned a factory in china , which would make it highly unlikely that the Dayton driver is any relation to the Axiom. Also it would seem to me the only relevant part of the graph is from 2k up since that is the general area where axiom cross's the tweeter , 2.7k on the 2 way speakers.

Yea I'm not sure if Axiom owns the factory or not but you can certainly ask them.

an excerpt from our article publishing next week that is relevant to this discussion:
<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->

Driver vendors have huge inventories of parts that can be customized to any company’s needs. Many times, a company will go to their vendor and say, “We need blue metallic cones.” It’s the exact same woofer as the one with the black poly cone, but this one was molded in blue metallic. Looks different, but performs the same and costs the same (or maybe a few cents more.) Same with tweeters—you can get a “metallic look” on a standard cloth dome, by doing a quick vapor-deposit spray with some silver-look paint. Voilá! Instant “metallic” dome.

on the flip side, it's very possible the Dayton is a sort of copy cat design. Either way the point of this was to dispel the myth that the drivers were the same. Clearly they are not from my measurements.

As for Resonance Frequency:
It's important to have a consistent and known Fs to know where to set the Xover point of the design which is usually 1-2 octaves above fs. So how the tweeter behaves below it's crossover point has significance in getting the best blend between the drivers.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->

 

[Socketman]

M2v2

 

[Socketman]

Yea I'm not sure if Axiom owns the factory or not but you can certainly ask them.

an excerpt from our article publishing next week that is relevant to this discussion:
<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->

on the flip side, it's very possible the Dayton is a sort of copy cat design. Either way the point of this was to dispel the myth that the drivers were the same. Clearly they are not from my measurements.

As for Resonance Frequency:
It's important to have a consistent and known Fs to know where to set the Xover point of the design which is usually 1-2 octaves above fs. So how the tweeter behaves below it's crossover point has significance in getting the best blend between the drivers.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->

Thanks gene, I suspected there was more to it ,but I am no speaker engineer though I am a interested enthusiast.

 

[gtpsuper24]

For what its worth, I seem to recall that Ian stated that he owned a factory in china , which would make it highly unlikely that the Dayton driver is any relation to the Axiom.

I believe I stated something similar in a PM on AVS back when you was railing against Arx being Chinese made and sure enough Axiom sources all of the drivers minus subwoofer drivers from China. Its not like there Canadian workers over there building them either its cheaply paid typical Chinese labor just like 99% of all other stuff made in China.

Running a driver factory isn't cheap and you need huge volumes so my bet would be the Axiom drivers are made in a OEM factory on there own "sub assembly" line along with Dayton audio drivers and probably many more.

Its very typical for multiple brands to use the same OEM factory, its cheaper and over all just simplier way of doing things.

Just like SVS sources its drivers from Peerless but are totally customized for their own use. Sundown car audio, Obsidian audio, Stereo Integrity, and Skar are all made together in the same factory. Elemental Designs drivers was made in a Image Dynamics OEM line. Fi Car audio builds, FI drivers, Sound Solutions, and several others. SB Acoustics not only makes their own drivers but builds for other brands too, Arc Car audio sells a $40 SB woofer and $20 tweeter thats identical in TS parameters and sells them in a 2 way car audio set for $899. The Arx XBL2 woofers are built in the same build house that does/did many of the Exodus Audio drivers including the Anarchy mid woofer that is very popular. Arx I believe is built along side Hi Vi/Swan speakers in the same factory.

 

[gene]

Thanks gene, I suspected there was more to it ,but I am no speaker engineer though I am a interested enthusiast.

It's kinda of mind boggling how much there is to speaker design, particularly driver mechanics. Things often seem simple on the surface but generally much more complex as you dig deeper. Tweeter design is very tricky which is why most loudspeaker companies don't make their own. They rely on the real experts, the Driver Manufacturers - the guys that do nothing all day but design drivers for a living. There is nothing wrong or DIRTY about Driver manufacturers. These guys know what they are doing and the really upper echelon ones have great product QC and tolerances.

It's intellectually dishonest to imply otherwise.

 

[slipperybidness]

I believe I stated something similar in a PM on AVS back when you was railing against Arx being Chinese made and sure enough Axiom sources all of the drivers minus subwoofer drivers from China. Its not like there Canadian workers over there building them either its cheaply paid typical Chinese labor just like 99% of all other stuff made in China.

Running a driver factory isn't cheap and you need huge volumes so my bet would be the Axiom drivers are made in a OEM factory on there own "sub assembly" line along with Dayton audio drivers and probably many more.

Its very typical for multiple brands to use the same OEM factory, its cheaper and over all just simplier way of doing things.

Just like SVS sources its drivers from Peerless but are totally customized for their own use. Sundown car audio, Obsidian audio, Stereo Integrity, and Skar are all made together in the same factory. Elemental Designs drivers was made in a Image Dynamics OEM line. Fi Car audio builds, FI drivers, Sound Solutions, and several others. SB Acoustics not only makes their own drivers but builds for other brands too, Arc Car audio sells a $40 SB woofer and $20 tweeter thats identical in TS parameters and sells them in a 2 way car audio set for $899. The Arx XBL2 woofers are built in the same build house that does/did many of the Exodus Audio drivers including the Anarchy mid woofer that is very popular. Arx I believe is built along side Hi Vi/Swan speakers in the same factory.

Absolutely! This OEM stuff happens A LOT more than most people realize.

Batteries are a great example, just slap a different label on them.

Raw manufacturing chemicals too. It happens ALL THE TIME. One large plant makes a chemical and sells it to many different companies. These companies slap their label on it and distribute it to the end user.