Bryston Model T Floorstanding Speakers

[Socketman]

Yet they get great reviews and its one speaker in a complete line.

 

[monkish54]

M50 and M3 are not 3 way speakers, the M60 is V3 now specs show it as having appropriate crossover.

yeah, so? So they let a midwoofer run fullrange, what's your point? That doesn't make it better....

What spec? Link please?

 

[monkish54]

Yet they get great reviews and its one speaker in a complete line.

"What Axiom speaker does this??"

Ummm..this one, this one, and this one.

"oh, that's only one [three] speaker in a series of speakers."

C'mon man, you really gonna play that game? It doesn't piss you off that they don't want to invest less than $100 in a high pass and low pass for the midrange and a low pass for the midwoofers? That doesn't make you angry?

UPDATE:

It appears they aren't letting the M3 & M50 run freerange anymore as the person on the Axiom forum alleged, OR they are just using a high pass on the tweeter and calling it a 2.2khz crossover. *shrugs* Perhaps that is one of the upgrades from v2 to v3. If it is a true crossover with both drivers filtered, I'm happy Axiom is now doing what they should.

 

[shadyJ]

Wow, I didn't know Axiom didn't put a filter on their mid woofers. Seriously why wouldn't they just put a filter on that? Wouldn't that would be just a simple capacitor? That would cost what, an extra dollar? That almost seems like white van speaker carelessness.

 

[monkish54]

Wow, I didn't know Axiom didn't put a filter on their mid woofers. Seriously why wouldn't they just put a filter on that? Wouldn't that would be just a simple capacitor? That would cost what, an extra dollar? That almost seems like white van speaker carelessness.

If they wanted to use a 6db/octave (electric not acoustic) all they would need is an inductor on the woofer to remove highs. Probably more than a dollar but not a whole lot, no.

They would need an inductor and capcitor for the midrange driver. Again 6db/octave.

 

[Chu Gai]

AH measured the FR of the M60V2 and found this.

 

[MinusTheBear]

The earlier version of the M80 V1/v2 had the midrange running full range. I think this was a large reason they were getting reports of M80's shutting down receivers and amplifiers. You don't hear reports about receivers going into protect mode with the M80's on forums anymore. I believe they added a high pass and low pass section to the crossover network during v2.

The M3 and M50 has always been stated as having a similar crossover design principle with the 6.5 midrange/woofer and 1" tweeter. There might have been some recent changes that we don't know of but its been always stated that the 6.5" runs free and the 1" tweeter is high passed to block out the low frequencies to the tweeter.

The last review of the M60 that AH did had the M60's midrange doing the same.

 

[gtpsuper24]

This was from last year so it is a V3 model M60 were are talking about here. And was a direct response from Ian. I just love how the Axiom fans will believe anything the person trying to sell them the speakers says.



So here again is a response from that speaker designer I pm'd awhile ago asking this question. In my question I never once mentioned brand or model and asked what his thoughts are on omitting a midrange filter:

it's possible to run a mid w/o filters, but it tends to have to be a driver with a combination of two things: A cheap part with an unintentionally limited bandwidth, and a luckly or well-designed limited bandwidth that allows the driver's motor inductance - which is very lossy and full of distortion when it's cheap and limited - that allows some semblance of built-in filtering. I can't see myself ever attempting it because the part tends to be really cheap and poor sounding and because there's really no way to ensure a good overall response. I can all but guarantee a strict analysis of the system its in shows bad behaviors.

Here is another from the Audioholics article:

Editorial Note about Running a Midrange Driver with No HPF by Paul Apollonio
By eliminating the series high-pass capacitor (at the VERY minimum) needed to protect the midrange driver from dangerous levels of peak low frequency content, this lowers the impedance of the system in a range where the output of the midrange driver adds NOTHING to the output of the Woofer(s); hence lowering system sensitivity. The low frequency content can cause increased voice coil movement and possibly cause it to go out of the gap if driven too hard, thereby allowing the low frequencies to modulate (read distort) the midrange the speaker produces. A sinewave sweep test to measure this problem will be unrevealing in this case. To see this problem, one must put in two frequencies simultaneously and view the output on a spectrum analyzer. (One can see distortion products as sum and difference frequencies) This is a simple process and one all audio engineers are familiar with.

Even if the Midrange driver is made INCREDIBLY stiff, and placed in a very very small sealed enclosure minimizing excursion and hence this distortion, subjecting the midrange voice coil to the heat caused by the low frequency content is generally not better than saving the price of the series capacitor.

There is such a thing as recommended practice and procedures, and the practice of eliminating the high pass filter, even if only a single series capacitor from the midrange driver is, in my opinion, NOT a good idea by any stretch of imagination. Allowing the large peak amplitudes of low frequency content to get to a midrange speakers voice coil is, in my opinion, not a very good idea.




​

 

[gene]

AH measured the FR of the M60V2 and found this.

Just for clarity that is not a measurement done by Audioholics. Our reviewer pulled that from the Axiom website.

 

[gtpsuper24]

The earlier version of the M80 V1/v2 had the midrage running full range. I think this was a large reason they were getting reports of amplifiers shutting down receivers. You don't hear reports about receivers going into protect mode with the M80's on forums anymore. I believe they added a high pass and low pass section to the crossover network during v2.

The M3 and M50 has always been stated as having a similar crossover design principle with the 6.5 midrange/woofer and 1" tweeter. There might have been some recent changes that we don't know of but its been always stated that the 6.5" runs free and the 1" tweeter is high passed to block out the low frequencies to the tweeter.

The last review of the M60 that AH did had the M60's midrange doing the same.

Axiom blamed every one else except themselves for the M80s shutting down amps. Then they quietly fixed the problem which was there design and no more problems.

S&V did a shoot out with the M3 and Ian said that the M3 they tested had a messed up crossover that wasn't assembled correctly. So S&V sent the M3 back to have the xover reworked but the bad crossover and good crossover show no difference in performance. Kind of bad when your reworked crossover shows no difference in performance from the bad crossover. Comments about the M3: M3v3 (good xover) had the same sonic character as the originals (bad xover). The treble was a dB or 2 or 3 too soft for my taste, and the sound had something of a closed (i.e., not open or spacious) character. sounded like too much of the upper midrange and lower treble was coming from the 6.5-inch woofers, which will tend to "beam" at these higher frequencies. The HB-1 MK2, on the other hand, had a much more open and enveloping sound.


Sounds to me like the woofer is being crossed too high or no filter at all.

 

[Chu Gai]

Just for clarity that is not a measurement done by Audioholics. Our reviewer pulled that from the Axiom website.

My bad, Gene. Have any measurements you may have done support what Axiom has published?

 

[gene]

My bad, Gene. Have any measurements you may have done support what Axiom has published?

I've never been able to replicate their measurements even when doing summed near field or gated. My measurements closely resemble what Brent Butterworth of Sound and Vision gets, particularly for M3s and M60's however.

 

[biggarthomas]

Well, I've just committed the ultimate heresy and will probably be shunned by all audiophiles. I know that some do not feel so warm about room correction but I has some real problems with my 2-channel listening environment. My speakers, some will remember are Axiom M100s. One wall that is adjacent to a speaker holds a thick wall covering while the wall adjacent to the other speaker includes a glass panelled door. We also have a love seat between the two speakers but much closer to the right tower.


Last week, I asked the set-up expert at a local hi fi store to help me figure out what to do about the space and about the boomier than acceptable sound beng generated in the environment. The set-up guy recommended that buy a Pioneer receiver with room correction electronics.


Of course, when I took a look across the Internet, I "discovered" that there are all sorts of room correction possibilities out there. Well, I now have one, its the DSPeaker Anti-Mode and you know what - it's absolutely amazing. That soundstage that elusive soundstage that, no matter how I exercised my limited placement options, refused to properly reveal itself has now done so. The bass output has become so incredible tight and the speakers have disappeared.


My Sonos now passes through an M-DAC and sends a Sabre DAC chipped, jitter free signal to the DSPeaker which processes, in particular, the bass sounds and sends them on to my Quad 99 pre.


An absolutely fantabulous result. If you are unfamiliar with the DSPeaker room correction device - look it up.


Anyway, I'm not looking back and the purists can burn me at the stake but, I'd rather have good sound than stick to orthodoxies. At last, Dire Straits is playing right in front of me - right in front Emanuel Ax is playing his piano in my living room right under the front window - wow!

Actually, anyone living in the Guelph, Ontario area is welcome to come over and have a listen.

 

[biggarthomas]

Not the best of images but I'll post a better one soon.

 

[biggarthomas]

I'm serious, I'm inviting people who live in the Guelph are to come over for a couple of hours listening to my system and a beer/wine or two. Actually, if you know it, Thomas Tallis's Spem in Alium - this one sung by the Oxford Camarata, has to be the ultimate test for speakers handling women's voices. Come on over!

 

[moves]

Personally, I think it could weaken their image. I feel that once company's start to venture off to other things than it's specialty, it can lower the credibility of their name. For example, look at Sony. Sony makes almost every electronic under the sun. In my opinion, they have "too many chefs in the kitchen" and they can't focus on bettering one thing and to make it the BEST it can be. I am not saying Bryston is anything like Sony in quality but I think you get my idea. Maybe it's a 'stereotype'. No pun intended.

 

[PENG]

Personally, I think it could weaken their image. I feel that once company's start to venture off to other things than it's specialty, it can lower the credibility of their name. For example, look at Sony. Sony makes almost every electronic under the sun. In my opinion, they have "too many chefs in the kitchen" and they can't focus on bettering one thing and to make it the BEST it can be. I am not saying Bryston is anything like Sony in quality but I think you get my idea. Maybe it's a 'stereotype'. No pun intended.

I think you might have picked a bad example. Sony did, and still do make very good quality products. The newest high end speakers have been getting rave reviews from reputable magazines. I know there are few bad reviews by AV magazines in general so we can't take them too seriously, but if you read what they say about many different speakers you do get a sense of what they may actually be saying. Sony also made some very nice ES model AVRs over the years that are highly regarded, but for some reasons, apparently less favorably in North America especially on forums such as ours. On a world wide basis I don't think their AVRs are badly conceived. For Bryston, I have no idea why they bother getting into speakers, and I do see your point, to a point..

 

[MinusTheBear]

For Bryston, I have no idea why they bother getting into speakers, and I do see your point, to a point..

$$$. I bet Byrston is making great margins on these speakers. It seems within the Bryston community there was great interest for them to get into speakers.

 

[PENG]

$$$. I bet Byrston is making great margins on these speakers. It seems within the Bryston community there was great interest for them to get into speakers.

Only if they sell enough though. Within a 100 km radius they are surrounded by really well established Canadian speaker manufacturers such as PSB, Paradigm and Totem. I wish them well..

 

[moves]

Sure... Sony may have a nice set of high end speakers but I still think that their reputation is over hyped and are know for dipping their hands into all sorts of equipment. Probably around 15 years ago, I bought my first t.v. and it was a 36 inch flat screen WEGA for something around $2200. You know... the ones that came out after the curved tech was heading out. Beautiful picture! After the year warranty was up, the t.v. started making a high pitch noise and would not go away. The t.v.s tube ended up breaking and it costed something around $1500 to replace the tube itself. I was in college, saved up my money from odd jobs and bought this thing. Next thing you know, it breaks. A $2200 dollar t.v. should break after a year. I fought and fought with Sony and they ended up giving me a $1200 credit. My experience with them from a customer service stand point was not good. A big company like Sony should have no problem replacing such a lemon as the one I got. Since then, I've always bought the extended warranty and refuse to deal or buy Sony ever again.